Improving negative curation, A downvote button Vs. flag explained. [UI improvement]

in steem •  2 months ago

Here's my vision of a downvote button at UI level.


The new downvote button has the same effect as the current flag on the blockchain but it's maximum strength is calculated in the UI so that it can only bring the post/comments to $0.00 and not below.

The new flag button has warnings about it's usage similar to what we have now but without the "disagreement on reward" (use downvote for that) the interface would also encourage, if not force users, to leave a custom comment or select a preset reason to let the author know why his content was flagged.

Reasoning :

  1. Not enough people are down-voting so not enough organic content discovery is taking place.
  2. Votes can too easily be sold for liquid money without any regard for content quality.
  3. New people getting flagged think someone's is accusing them of wild claim like of Fraud or Hate-speech... drama ensues.
  4. It is problematic right now to know what vote weight to use to bring a reward to zero but not below and unintentionally hiding content behind extra clicks on Steemit.com and having to deal with one more uninformed claim of censorship than a disagreement on reward warrant.

This solution is for sure not perfect as bringing a post to 0.00 doesn't mean someone won't upvote it later and without being able to see orders of downvotes on a block explorer it's impossible to tell which user brought the post from $100.00 to $0.00 or from 0.00 to -$0.05

On that subject I'd like inputs on what could be possible disadvantages and technical challenge if the blockchain would not to forgo previous voting power when either incrementing a positive vote or reducing a negative vote ie: from +10% to +20% or from -10% to -20% ?

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We used to have one, then the whiny bitches started crying, @ned felt bad and changed it to a flag so people wouldn’t use it as much.

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That is about as dumb as California taking away straws.

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Bring it back! If we can't learn from our mistakes, we're fu**ed!

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Yes but is their another way for it??

As a veteran of web forums, semantics matter. "Flag" carries a universally negative connotation, and 9 out of 10 people see that word and associate it with "I did something illegal." And so, people get all fired up over getting "flagged." It doesn't matter what the effective application is, it's the word that's offensive.

"Downvote" means just that. It's like leaving a 1-star or 2-star review on Yelp or Amazon. You're not saying the establishment you're reviewing is a fraud, just that you don't like it. Two very different situations, even if the effective application results in the same thing.

If someone is going to go to the trouble of submitting a downvote button for the UI, it might be useful to actually make it DO something, like such toggles do on many sites: When you downvote, you have a number of checkboxes:

Downvoted for (check one):
Plagiarism
Spam
Disagreement with rewards
Not tagged as NSFW

And whatever else might seem appropriate. With that added, it might be a useful tool for cheetah, spaminator and so on.

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These suggestions would make downvoting more culturally acceptable on this platform. Thanks for sharing.

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That's an awesome notion. Choosing what the flag is for.

Sounds very interesting, will steem take this idea?

I think flags that take the value negative have a place when dealing with spam as it preempts others voting them back up again. There are some who leave junk comments around so they can give them a big vote at the last minute. We need to be able to counter that behaviour. Of course flags get abused. It's sad to see powerful people trash the accounts of others simply because they disagree with them.

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Just to add, voting in the last 12 hours is blocked by the blockchain now.

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Has this been announced somewhere?

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Maybe on Github, not sure. But you can try it yourself.

Does it even matter anymore? Interest in Steemit appears to be waning.

hi @transisto

Not enough people are down-voting and not enough organic content discovery is taking place.

Do you think that it will change now? People are to afraid of down voting.

upvote on the way! :)

Yours
Piotr

I would love for the UI to reflect downvotes just as you describe. I also want users to understand downvoting is just part of the platform and doesn't mean you have done something terrible.

Steemit needs a downvote button. The meaning behind flagging and downvoting are two completely different things in my book - so it would only make sense.

It is problematic right now to know to what weight to downvote something to bring the reward to zero but not below and unintentionally hiding the content behind extra clicks on Steemit.com and having to deal with one more uninformed claim of censorship than a disagreement on reward warrant.

Having this option for downvoting would be quite neat as well!

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Correct, but Busy had one for ages. Wny use steemit at all? It doesn't take a genius to see that it's functionally and visually inferior. One button won't change much.

So basically my https://mspsteem.com but with rshares calculation to cancel rewards and not hide posts. Doable

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What about a selection for no damage to earnings just so to say, "I don't approve." A nominal amount as to not burn vote power.

make downvotes grat again

Much better than the current system - it is the word Flagged, not so much the downvote... good distintion between "illegal" and "I don't like this"...
Resteeming
-exp

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not a novel, hahaha!

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Well, we do offer that service here at @steemflagrewards.

That is, if you flag abuses like plagiarism, spam, etc.

I like the downvote button idea. I'm not sure about the complexity of not forgoing previous voting power when changing vote power, but if it were feasible to not cancel a vote, but just modify it, I guess you could also have bots pin a payout to $0 by changing it in response to upvotes.

I think this is a great idea. Every time I flag someone they start acting all crazy like I am accusing them of something. Almost all my flags are because I think their content sucks and does not deserve to be on the trending page. Negative feedback is important, that is absent right now. I hope your suggestion is implemented.

There are lot's of things that I don't like but that does not mean that I should downvote them. would downvoting lead to the creation of herd mentality out of fear from offending anyone. Down vote pack hunting would also be an issue.

@whitelightxpress said that downvoting should open a screen where you had to check a box for the reason why you downvoted. I'd go further than that and say that you had to fill out a series of check boxes. I feel that if you think that a post deserves a downvote you have to justify it.

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If this pop-up was to exist it would have have to allow to only be seen once

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Yes, I think it should be a one time thing.

What if, instead of an upvote/downvote button, it was a scale ...

I know it's just semantics, but if at the bottom of the post, there was a slider.

If you slide/swipe to the left, "not useful to me", if you slide/swipe to the right, "useful to me". The further you slide to one direction or the other, the more positive/negative vests.

By default, make it a 1-10 scale, with the option of going more granular.

A nice temporary solution. It still however pins the downvote on the poster not the voter. With 493 votes it would be very difficult for someone to see or find a specific vote to erase. However by displaying the upvoted amount next to the name in the drop down for the first 20 votes, the offending amount of excess reward would likely be visible. There is plenty of room to put a downvote arrow next to the name that gave the excessive award, and remove any chance of curation reward to them with a down vote.

This would make the "Disagreement on Rewards" very plain. The poster has very little control over who votes except for the purchased votes. After a while any business that is repeatedly hit by down votes from one account will blacklist that account for abusing their system. A win for the people of steemit all around.

this button looks more logical than the current mode with its down arrow in disagreement with the publication and as you say is perfect since one can say why is giving the negative vote in a personalized comment.

I imagine that this button will have to graduate our negative vote from 10% to 100% depending on what poncetaje we want to give or at what point we want the publication to go down either by plagiarism or violating the term of steemit.

Undoubtedly I like this version more, although with this button more visibly in the eyes of a lot. It will increase more negative votes this is my opinion.

I just dont think this would change anything major. A downvote/flag is the same thing when considering the impact of it. When money is involved regardless of what you call it, people will take major offense to you downvoting/flagging them. This is the case even more so when you have stake based voting.
If we get 1 account/1 vote id maybe like to see this...

But this doesnt really change much. People arent downvoting enough because its not an even playing field and it cannot be. Not because the flag button is in the top right corner. My personal opinion is that no one should use bots but rather votes should be organic only.... Hell, i dont even think this post should have 600$ attached to it with bots. So what if i went around flagging every one? My account would be dead in days time.
You can make a downvote button, add rainbows to it, make it sparkle..... in the end people wont use it out of fear of retaliation.

Thats a simple fact and theres really nothing we can do about it. This looks more like a change in aesthetic, not much more then that.

If downvotes had a maximum % limit by which 1 account could downvote a post then maybe it could work. But i dont think that is a good idea to implement.

Excellent idea @transisto, will probably make Steemit much cleaner and with much better content on hot and trending pages. I would propose a slider so that you can choose from 0 to 100 percent on how much to downvote and a value below which shows how much would that be in $ terms.

Down voting is a good idea but I worry that people might misuse them. We already know that upvoting is being misused in many cases.

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@transisto
What about us . like me .I am brand new here. Can downvotes affect me?

this is topic of concern on this platform , till date there is no resolution for this problem , lets see if this works successfully, thank you bro for updating us with this information.

your suggestion is good but i think that when we don't give a chance to new user to promote there skill how can they grow in a such a large community

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steemit isn´t large. it is tiny. You basically see the same people all the time in the comments.

So helpful thanx!

flag is batter then button

What an incredible article, you favor the community people like you, who are interested in the technology of the block chain and forums (where the community grows positively)

It is good your suggestion, I think you are the fist person that post something like this. Many social networks have the upvote and downvote, in this case of steemit is only the flag, for me this social network wanted be different to anothers ones, mark originality.

It looks good but I think people will misuse it .

For me people will always use the down vote a lot!..

I like it, more explicit and less hostile.

@transisto and other couple of stemians that had dropped wonderful replies and suggestions, but here's my own opinion and i stand to be corrected. Humans will always be humans, i feel a structured policy might help if only @ned could consider a firmer approach that will have a mini dialogue box that will ask users there reasons for the downvote, so if the system fills the reasons are baseless then maybe the system will automatically use other alternatives i.e flag or a new alternative, for me this gives more authenticity, originality and genuineness of #Stemians & #Steemit.

I like the downvote, too.
But i would ask that they be separated by more distance to avoid accidents on small screens.

It's a very good idea

Maybe it would be a small progress compared to now, but ...

Not enough people are down-voting so not enough organic content discovery is taking place.

... I fear that probably wouldn't really change: if then I would downvote (not flag) a whale because of "disagreement on reward" he would probably flag (or downvote) me because of "disagreement on my downvote". :)
And because his downvote would be many times stronger than mine I had to think twice if I dare to place my downvote at all (and this still would apply for every smaller account who intended to downvote an account bigger than himself).

However, I don't say your idea was bad ... just thinking ...

Awesome! We need to get rid off the bad image downvotes have. They're as important as upvotes in order to maintain a healthy ecosystem.

New people getting flagged think someone's is accusing them of wild claim like of Fraud or Hate-speech... drama ensues.

Only new people? :-)) I could write a book about people going crazy even after a well explained and reasonable downvote.

We need downvotes to become a neutral and natural part of the game!

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Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.

I'd like to see this implemented also

It can be good , i am afraid of discrimination .. maybe someone who hate you and your content might kill your buisness .. we will see

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the donwvote button will look very good if you will see the amount of dollars ($) downvote nyan on the side, like the amount of UPVOTE ($)

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Nyan? Nyan cat?

Its better the way it is. What you think a post is worth should not matter. There are definitely people who abuse the system for more upvotes but something as generic as a bad opinion of a post should not be reason enough to downvote. I'd say only obvious scams and illegal actions such as fraud or plagiarism should be downvoted and flagges to zero.

Exchanging freedom for control is not a path to the future.
But we already know that from the reality...

Everywhere the same shi*...

Just copy reddit! They have got things going right on their site.

It’s really make a sense @transisto

Although the downvote has a lot of use, on paper, I dont think with the current state of affairs in our community, it lost its value. Rewards in our community are distributed more and more through bidbots, and we all know who pays for the bidbots, the author of the post. We also know bidbots for any content, regardless if it is good or not. I personally see this as the downfall of a blogging/social network and the rise of a bot network. In a bot network, quality of content has no meaning, content itself has no meaning. Bot networks are gaming networks. So, unless we somehow reduce the influence of votebots, we might as well remove the downvote option all together. We may even introduce more gaming variables.

Bring it back. It's all we need to fix this trash content we see everyday on top of trendings.

Wow, what a very good concept, buy here and promote there with a good profit margin simply in seconds. it truly is cool in case you question me. it is able to be a pleasing arbitrage opportunity, but it’s additionally unstable and if does not pan out you would possibly lose money on taxes. despite the fact that, funding in steem is continually a very good investment Wonderful project Roeland! You are the best.

for me flag button is more appropriate rather than down vote cause its makes more sense

I guess I'm one of those whiny bitches @berniesanders LOL. I'm just thinking about people who would abuse it's use. Like you don't really like someone, so you downvote without having a good reason. I think that's not cool...a flag is a different story as it's about doing something illegal.

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Do upvotes need a "good reason"?

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yes I think so. You upvote something because you like it (for whatever reason, there can be so many), so you give the person a few cents as a reward. If you don't like something, you just don't reward them. But taking away someone's previous rewards is wrong in my opinion, just because you don't like something. Just not upvoting should be enough. Of course for abusers of the trending page, a flag is totally justified.

I like it. im all for it.

I think it might help to help calm down drama i've seen in the past.

But i still think Steemit has a quite few bigger issues but this is a step in the right direction.

Excuse me but I see it as a stupid truth, since it only makes the author feel bad only if the person does not like the content ignore it or if he has some advice to give that only leave a comment and already, we all know that not everybody likes what we publish, I think it would be a waste of time

When my friend introduced me to steemit some months back he caution me about negative comment on peoples post. When he explained what flag down mean i was scared to even comment on peoples post because i don't want to be a victim. I think its important to respect people opinion and constructive criticism should not result to flag down. I really learn from this wonderful writeup.

@transisto is going to be almost two years that I am active on the platform, I do not agree with the services of bot to cure my work, however there are few people who vote for my work that I saw in the obligation to hire every time I can do these services, I do it because I live from what I generate here, this is my source of income. and I want the best for the platform
It is not better to remove all these bot services and leave the flags as always
There will be no abuse in the use of this new tool.
Excuse me for my sincerity

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@jlufer i also want earn from steemit but as i am new on steemit and don't know how can i earn from steeemit so i need your help if u can thnx in advance

That's bullshit,

we need a downvote button

These suggestions are acceptable for this platform. Thanks for sharing. Like I did this first. Although I'm new at steemit. Later on you have a better post.

What, when was that added? I did not notice it until I saw your post, thanks for bringing this to my attention, I really need to make sure I don't use it unintentionally!

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First sentence say it's a my vision.

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Then you must be smoking monkey pie!

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poor upme. you were the lowest bidding bid bot this round.

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Congratulations friend

Hi steemians am new member i need your upvote on my post @shotunde

I didn't really understand this

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it would just say you disaggree rather than taking away rewards

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Yes but I guess what was meant, was that the way things are worded was confusing or not self consistent. I wasn't clear that this was a proposal for improvement vs an incoming feature already planned.

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Thank you for this post. I have a lot to learn about steemit.

I think peoples used this power in negative way.

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