Crossing Streams
Have you ever talked to someone who in your opinion knows so little about a topic yet, is adamant they are correct? It could be that they have researched it from a very narrow band of sources, they are siloed and echo-chambered or perhaps, they have been raised in an environment that has driven various positions.
Have you ever attempted to get them to consider a differing view point, whether it be yours or another's theory only to have it fall on deaf ears? There are of course many reasons why someone will avoid or reject information that does not gel with their worldviews, but at what point does one walk away?
I like to argue in the walking world with a whole range of people but mostly, with people that are more highly skilled than myself. The ones that are able to pull apart my position and explain why or why not an alternative should be considered. As hard as it is to find out I am wrong, it is my responsibility to do so and, it is on me at that point to shift or ignore.
But, some people I have argued with are not interested in the discussion, not interested in the consideration or even to find out if there is personal value for themselves. All they want is to get their message across, like a religious zealot who preaches their book without ever having read another.
I am always in two minds though, as to walk away somehow justifies their behaviour and perspective which means that without change, they will likely find similar minds to echochamber themselves with and there will be a ramping up of views until they are pushed further toward extremes. To me, it isn't a fight against a person, it is a support of good or tearing down of bad ideas or at least having a chance.
People say that everyone is entitled to their opinion but, if their opinion is harmful, should it be tolerated, especially if without consideration of alternatives, they teach their children to follow suit?
But, there is a point where no good can come from the discussion or at least, my energy could be better spent somewhere else or with someone else. A point where a poor position in one must be left that way even though the future ramifications may be very negative for everyone.
There are many examples of ideas that if questioned early enough could have stopped them from snowballing into atrocities or well-intentioned social movements that have spiralled into tyranny and violence, often against the thing they initially supported.
Personally, I am an advocate for freedom of the individual and responsibility of action but too often I see that the individual is hacked into thinking they are acting independently while following a group movement. They do not see the manipulations at play or the harm they may cause as everyone walking beside them is travelling in the same direction. They cannot see the leader so assume there is none.
It is very difficult to go against the stream of such a crowd when friends, family and people one admires are all within and make one feel included and part of the community. It is easy to lose sight of alternatives, easy to flood out differing views and ostracise those who begin to change course.
If we do not step back from our streams, do not introduce dissonance, do not examine our lives, where does it lead or, where are we led?
Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]
Well my young and good friend @tarazkp. I guess, precisely The Youth is the main ailment which usually impide us to know the exact point when one must walk away.
When I was young, I was one of those who did not leave a debate or an argument no matter that I was the only one in the entire crowd on the other side of the fence. Or even, when it was obvious and I had already realized that they only took the opposite side to make me angry without further reason. I just would keep my roll going and going and going endless until they were the ones who walked away without prove their point. :p
But everything comes to its time. From long time ago, I've already been old and lonely enough to have learned and know better. For a long time, I simply limit myself to pointing out things. Display them, describe them, detail them and highlight them in the clearest and most crystalline way possible.
The high eloquence of your prose, it should never be that of an impressionist painting. But on the contrary, always seek to match that of an authentic surrealist painting. This way, you will always find and observe that in this way your interlocutors, spectators, debaters, counterparts and audience in general will never feel cornered by the limits of your very well illustrated and coherent discourse. And therefore, they will always feel that they have enough space to maunder, wander and even from where to escape. ¿?¿?¿
So, no wonder why I get basically no comments in my posts. It is more than evident that nobody is attracted to discuss with a solitary, hermit, extravagant, loquacious and prating humorous Cranky Gandalf. :)
Thanks for this incredibly on point post!
I was just thinking on many of the points you mentioned here just yesterday! Orwell either predicted this or warned us about it! This is a fantastic post. I have been having difficulties lately trying to help some see different points of view without them either thinking I am attacking them or that I believe the perspective being offered for consideration. I never like to give the answers away... but as you said... help people analyze their perspectives with critical analysis in order to better understand their own views.
I often find myself in the position of the devil's advocate... not because of my own views, but just to invoke thought into the counter points others may hold. There is great opportunity for growth and development in healthy discussion, debate, and even civil argumentation. I never mind any of those things... but for me, ( I am probably guilty myself more than I realize) One of the biggest challenges in proper communication is the art of listening. Not JUST listening... but hearing! I find many opportunities to receive and impart knowledge obstructed latently by deaf ears. I guess discerning with wisdom and experience when to cut your losses or to wait for another opportunity to further discussion may serve the greater good most efficiently! Patience and Grace can be difficult to embody at times. I appreciate your thoughts!
Do you find (like I do) that many people are unable to differentiate you from the argument? I often find that as Devil's Advocate, people very quickly start believing I hold that position, not that I am playing the part. Doesn't matter for me but I find it interesting even when I state beforehand.
That's precisely what I was saying. It's almost like an outer body experience watching it go down. It makes me sad that true communication is so difficult. Sometimes, I almost feel it's me that needs to learn how to adapt the same information in a more successful approach rather than expect others to be able to make those connections in the data. It's easy to be guilty in this sense by association, even when we aren't associating with the information but just presenting it! This whole subject and topic is interesting. Learning to be a ferry barge crossing the stream rather than going up or down the current is the true challenge! I just want to help myself and others cross the gap.
I wonder if it better for the argument if you stay in the role (as you can take the backlash) as it means they are more likely to be 'letting loose' on the topic. May not be fun though, especially with some very aggressive people.
I will buckle up and make sure to put on my helmet! hahah Thanks =) I never mind taking one for the team!
You and I are very similar in this respect. I feel that I am something of a perpetual student. I am always trying to learn, and understand, the world around me.
Most of the time, I don't understand the things that are going on around me, so I am forced to accept that those are the realities and there is nothing that I can do about it. However, I believe in cause and effect (or more scientifically stated, stimulus - response). But I still always want to know the "why".
I feel that only by understanding where something came from can you understand why it has come to be the way it is.
Thanks for another one of your (always) thought-provoking posts!
And if you can connect a few of these streams together, you can see where some ideas are likely to go. Many put their head down into a specialisation and miss the bigger picture.
Well i debated with many believers about different topics, and what i noticed was, that many don't even know how to swim, but have the guts to jump in the middle of the ocean. This means many simply start to debate because they believe they are correct, and then have no answer back when evidence or the facts get thrown in there face. As a result many jump back to primitive resources like using a fallacy to retreat.
For this reason i analyze conversations about regular things, to find out there level of consciousness or state of mind, not to see if they are capable of going into a debate. But more to figure out who they are, and when i find that out, then i just go along with how they think. And only share some hints to see if they are open enough to accept that they can get smarter. I do that because i prefer to talk with people on my level, and if they can't do that, then i teach them.
And if see from the beginning that they are not open minded enough, then i wound even start going in a debate. Because they could have their own reason for going serious in a debate, it could be out of ignorance, but also because they are irritated on a me, someone, the group or the topic.
Im convinced that doing a debate is a skill, what can be learned by anyone, who is open minded enough to understand that he needs some skills.
Yes, it is definitely a skill that can be developed and I think that it should be on every schools curriculum as well as critical thinking, bias in the media and self-awareness.
Indeed, for me it was more a skill what was needed to survive in life, or else i would have done something stupid. Then later on i used those skills in debates against believers. And trust me on this, that was a good education option. I learned alot and i also realized that not many think with an open mind, many forced up what they believe. Or are afraid of the truth. Its difficult....
Oh, i always get into such people :) And once i get a feeling they know little on the topic i usually quit discussion since it is pointless and a total waste of time.
Thank you, my well-known friend, I personally have been drowning two years ago