Why free downvotes are a good and necessary part of STEEM

in #newsteem5 years ago (edited)

There are so many posts and comments out there complaining about downvotes that I feel it's necessary to put out another perspective, why the free downvotes were introduced, and why they are good.
And before you think "well yeah, he's one of the main downvoters" - I am also one of the main recipients and still wouldn't want to revert them being added to the platform.

Let me explain.


That picture is one for the german users, sorry rest of the world

The reward pool is limited. It fills up with a fixed rate (the inflation) and the STEEM which can be paid out depend on that rate. So if someone gets a high reward, there is less left for everyone else.

For a long time we have helplessly watched people engaging in self rewarding behaviour (self-votes, bidbots, upvote4upvote), which lowered the rewards for all the others. Downvotes are described in the whitepaper as the tool to switch the balance from self rewarding to deciding as a community which is the best content. That's the whole value proposition of STEEM - reward good content!
Having downvotes cost the same as upvotes made them being used very scarcely. We had the choice of getting curation rewards for upvoting content, or clean up and giving up on the rewards as an act of altruism. That's why trending looked the way it did.

Now people accuse those who use the downvotes that cleaning up would drive the price of STEEM down. Which direction did it head the last months and years, while they were able to self reward? Isn't it a lot more probable that outside investors stayed away because they saw that the main value proposition is not working, and an economic system where those who have much can assign even more to themselve can't grow organically?
We need to engage more people, we need more and better content, and the way to do this is by rewarding them for their efforts!

Yes, investors are important. But they should invest into a concept, because they believe that the value of their investment will rise. That doesn't mean that they need to get more STEEM, but that STEEM itself needs to become more valuable. And it can only do that if it finally delivers on its promise to bring the best content to the top.
I personally know of >1M STEEM that has been bought since the EIP exactly for the reason that we now have a chance to getting closer to doing so.

As an additional measure, curation rewards have been raised by 100%. The rewards on a post are now equally shared between the content providers and the investors. So investors claiming they need to reward themselves are actively acting against the fundamentals of the platform. They hurt themselves too, as with the platform constantly shrinking because we can't retain authors, the value falls and with it their investment. They keep piling up STEEM for themselves, while the value drops faster than they can collect them. In the end, everyone loses.

A downvote doesn't take something away, it changes the allocation of the funds to be paid out. What's taken away from a self rewarder goes back to the pool, and can be used to reward good content again.

The upmost hilarious claim is that this would be a communist system. Nobody takes away something from your wallet, and nobody wants to. As long as it's not paid out, it's not yours. Consensus between humans needs time and we have 7 days to determine together which content is able to make the platform grow. Just because someone decided to give you a vote after 5 minutes, that doesn't mean you earned that.

Small downvotes of powerless accounts and retaliation downvotes are a side effect. But those don't matter in the big picture. The small ones don't have an effect bigger than the unavoidable dislikes on youtube anyway. And for the retaliation votes it's the same as for the legitimate ones - they don't take anything away, they just make it available for the pool again.

That got a lot longer than intended - tl;dr: don't frown about downvotes, they're healthy for the platform. Use them, take them, and steem on!

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Something just hit me. What is the moronic talk that Steem is going down after #newsteem? Here is a recent daily chart from Bianace. Steem/BTC hit a low of 0.00001549 on Aug 10, 2019. That's the reaction low. Prices have been very stable since then! Every time after that, when prices got to that level it was bought heavily. A picture is worth a lot more than many written words and mis-information.

PS. Up-voted for visibility

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"Isn't it a lot more probable that outside investors stayed away because they saw that the main value proposition is not working, and an economic system where those who have much can assign even more to themselve can't grow organically?"

Definitely...

"The crypto ecosystem owes the Steem blockchain and the STEEM token a nod of appreciation because it built one of blockchain’s first tangible real-world use cases, a decentralized social content platform. The years have not been kind to the platform, however, with clear flaws such as the manipulated upvoting of content and power disparities between users becoming increasingly apparent. As a result, many users have opted to switch to other platforms like Medium."

Source: https://bravenewcoin.com/insights/steem-price-analysis-engine-in-need-of-a-restart

Nice find, they are spot on.

@tipu nominate

Hi @oliverschmid! @bronkong has nominated you to become a @tipU curator! You can now request 3 @tipU upvotes per day on any content you like. The better curation reward you can get, the more upvotes with higher value you can send. You can nominate new curators as well!

To send the upvote, please comment under the post and at the end of the comment, add: @tipu curate. To nominate someone else you think would make a good @tipU curator, reply to one of their posts or comments with: @tipu nominate. All of this is of course free :)
Check out https://tipu.online/curator?oliverschmid for more information and to see your stats :). Have fun!

Ok. I don’t like to comment too much. But I will in this case. There is a overwhelming chorus that I am hearing that people will leave after #newsteem. There are actually standard dataset from Pablo’s post that point to that... it’s an endemic trend since Jan 2018. Keyword “Jan 2018”.... #newsteem is barely a month old or little more. Give it some time! Also there are multiple examples of people investing in a big way after HF. The change after HF got me out of my slumber.. I purchased 216K steem in one month. And I don’t think it’s a significant investment. I am not here to make money. I am here to make a successful social network on a blockchain. It is time for this platform to grow up and make a meaningful step.

Welcome to the club! You're now in a position of power, make people's stay a pleasant one and this place will grow. Network, be friendly, and don't get a big ego and you'll be golden. You're in a good spot!

I too had a change of heart. Posted about it here even though it's not as elegantly stated as this post. The downvotes bad, upvotes good mentality must change if Steemit is to survive as the anonymous and decentralized social media platform that it is. It's the necessary balance for any system to survive. Much love to you all for making it a better place.

so just took a look on steemworld, noticed you flagged this for 100% - wondering why?
https://steemit.com/poetry/@dobartim/memoirs-of-love

Disagreement on rewards.

Thank you for writing this way - it's easy to understand!

I've resteemed it in the hope that many others may allow themselves to be open - minded and read on what you wrote and perhaps it would clarify things out for the many of us because the many obviously don't understand why the dern flag is there.

This birthed more questions ha ha!

The reward pool is limited. It fills up with a fixed rate (the inflation) and the STEEM which can be paid out depend on that rate. So if someone gets a high reward, there is less left for everyone else.

Is it almost empty atm so the flag has become a necessity or it's purelybecause of the abuse and the purpose of rewarding great contents more?

We need to engage more people, we need more and better content, and the way to do this is by rewarding them for their efforts!

ditto on that! however, are we trying to be appealing to the masses who are mostly not cambridge/ivy league literate or the later?(this is not an insult am just stating what I think is an obvious fact when we refer to the masses) if we are trying to encourage the masses to join us- would it really make the value of steem rise? if it is the othey way around would it also give the same effect or we don't really know? After 3 years, I thought the value of Steem is somehow dependent on btc.

Nobody takes away something from your wallet, and nobody wants to. As long as it's not paid out, it's not yours. Consensus between humans needs time and we have 7 days to determine together which content is able to make the platform grow. Just because someone decided to give you a vote after 5 minutes, that doesn't mean you earned that.

The last part is a possible vaccine, we do tend to think that we've already earned it the moment the upvote get casted on our posts not realizing that it ain't 7 days yet and it may still change till the last 12 hours - that's one hmmmm.. moment for me! Thanks!

I still am not a fan of the flag but I do understand that there's a cancer that needs to be cured in the system, after several posts have exposed many names - am no longer surprised of the need for it to be implemented, I just wish the ones who decided on flags would not stop to it and think of a better and more amicable way of balancing the rewards and getting every great content producers get to trending plus How do we know that the circle jerks would not just switch to upvoting the trending knowing that they would earn curation rewards on that specially if the trending posts has much or am I seeing this shortsightedly again?

I also want to ask this - say, a certain newbie does create great content, value packed yada, yada, meets all the criteria that author gets support and finally keeps trending - how big is that author allowed to be till the support stops or should it actually continue specially if they continue making considerably great posts? If we think we're going to bigger in the future but we'll only be supporting a certain group of unique authors would we not become unsustainable in the end? Those recipients would eventually grow, too and how do we ensure that if a new set of unique newbie authors exist - we'd still be able to serve this very purpose? How big is big? I thought dolphinhood is already satisfying enough but I've watched the many bulked up to orca and minnows seem to multiply and shit posts continued to grow as I saw so many loo pics get passed on.

Am going out after this so if you reply forgive me if I get to see it on my next visit! TC and enjoy autumn!

Is it almost empty atm so the flag has become a necessity or it's purelybecause of the abuse and the purpose of rewarding great contents more?

It can't run empty. What comes in goes out, if someone gets more others get less.

are we trying to be appealing to the masses who are mostly not cambridge/ivy league literate or the later?

All of them - the masses would profit from having a source for ivy league content so to say, but they wouldn't (and shouldn't) make a living with shitposting.
How the value plays out depends on a lot of factors, and I can't honestly forsee that. We have more chances for it to rise if people don't think this platform rewards people for having something in their wallet I assume.

How do we know that the circle jerks would not just switch to upvoting the trending knowing that they would earn curation rewards on that specially if the trending posts has much or am I seeing this shortsightedly again?

Not everyone can get high rewards by upvoting trending. As soon as something is on trending, the curation rewards are bad, as the high rewards go to those who voted on it first. Trying to predict what might become trending is part of the concept, but if everyone jumps on the same authors that becomes highly competitive. It's better for your own rewards to vote on something small that becomes big later, than something that is already big. That also kind of answers your next question, there is no hard limit to adding support, but for yourself it's always better to find the next trending post instead of piling onto one that's already there.

Thanks! I have a few new questions not related to this reply though - just a few thoughts I had earlier.

If a post gets flagged and a certain amount was removed from that post's rewards - does it mean that the person who used the flag on that post somehow gets to decide who the reward goes to? It kind'a make me think that it looks like that. If it has that effect how are we sure that the amount of reward taken out of a flagged post considerably reasonable enough to cast on that post?

Does any huge account holder who'd cast a flag on a post get to earn from downvoting? If so, would that not be considered abused, too, specially if they're capable of giving that as an upvote to more deserving unique post that could possibly get to trending specially if they happen to have casted it with a perfect timing? Wouldn't they be earning much specially if they flag a post heavily?(I have a hunch am seeing this last one wrong.)

Lastly, just how big a group is this circle that it seems to be causing much damage to the point that their actions have summoned the flag back? A lot?

EDIT : I took another peek at the trending and bumped into a mention of community - I've heard this a long time ago, afaik it's not new, how do we know this won't birth to another form of circle jerking? If it would be alright - then what's the point of what's being done now?

Hi @englishtchrivy

I really appreciate you asking all the questions

It will also make me try to understand this when @pharesim answers you

does it mean that the person who used the flag on that post somehow gets to decide who the reward goes to?

No. It's returned to the pool and distributed to everyone else based on the votes they received. All upvotes count a little bit more.

how big a group is this circle

Huge. Everyone got used to the system being broken, and it will take a long time to change the culture, if it's possible at all.

Can't predict how communities will work out, we will see.

Who is to decide what is quality content or not?

I see the same problem developing with the downvotes that was there before. This imbalance between the minnows and the whales. Only now the minnows that have the idea that certain practices are good or bad can now downvote each other. It doesn't matter if you're making good content and contributing to the value of steem in this way - anyone can downvote you for any reason.

The absence of an upvote in the previous system should have been enough to keep things in check. Simply adding a costless downvote does not solve anything. it makes things more complicated. Stupidly complicated.

I've just started releasing some music from a music project called Zen in a Nightclub, it's based on improvisation and involves artists from all around the world. I used a bid bot minnowbooster.net to promote my post.

It's good content, it should be seen, sometimes my content is picked up by curators and sometimes it is not.

I get a comment and a downvote from @acidyo telling me that I have received a downvote for using a bidbot.

I have a steem wallet with less than 150 steem in it, none of it I have put actual cash into, only generated from rewards. If I'm not using steem for promotion, besides steem power, what do I do with that steem?

Not only that, I am not the big whale that is causing the system to crash by using a bid bot. I am a small time user that is creating far greater quality content than many other accounts that have a much higher value.

It shouldn't matter that I use a bid bot.

Instead of @acidyo looking at the content and deciding its value, and giving a productive comment - I am immediately judged on my use of a bid bot and on that alone, without even looking at the content. With free downvotes small users and their spite have the power to pull down even smaller users just because. It's created the domain for virtual bullying.

How is this helping the platform? I'm on the edge about whether to use steem at all or not. It's becoming quite useless and now with free downvotes has given any Joe Blow the power to fuck you for any reason they imagine in their lucid mind.

Let's use our brains on this one.

I don't think steem is the future. Something else will emerge, but for sure steem has paved the way for that new thing.

The community should decide together what's quality and what not. You rewarding yourself break that system. Thinking you should be allowed to do that, and then saying that you don't think the system will work at all is very self centered and giving out a bit fuck you to everyone who is trying to make it work.

If it helps you to get over the edge: please don't use steem.

I am not making money off this. I am doing it for the love of it.

I am not loving steem. Goodbye steem.

It used to be acceptable to use minnowbooster. I wasn't aware the rules changed.

Now we have new rules and new upstarts thinking they know everything.

I honestly cannot be bothered.

"If it helps you to get over the edge: please don't use steem."

This was added later in an edit.

I won't use steem. It's ok. I'll use real life. I'll get away from computers and speak with real people.

More than anything this whole exercise has taught me that expression cannot be contained in electronic form and we lose the live aspects of things. We've lost the life trying to put a value on everything.

Steem is full of mediocre content. And that is not improving.

The whales still rule the day and the rewards still end up in the pockets of those that have. It's a general rule of thumb, those that have will be given more and those that don't will have whatever it is they have taken from them.

Free downvotes doesn't change this.

"You rewarding yourself break that system."

I am not rewarding myself. I don't get money from using this bid bot, it's just promotion. It uses the same steem that I put into it, to make my content seem a little more popular. There is no real accumulation of wealth, am not suddenly in charge of the keys to the inflation of steem and giving myself all the wealth.

This is how you make it seem.

I am not the enemy in this equation.

Whales will abuse because that is business.

You do what you can with what you have. If bid bots aren't 'legal' anymore then other means will come to the fore to make something be perceived as popular.

Numerous accounts with networks set up that are not in any way honest about voting of content because it is popular are generated by whales. They get votes on content because that's where they want the votes, not because that's what is what the people want.

It's the nature of 'attracting investors' and putting a value on things. This is business. Art and business traditionally do not mix.

It seems that those that have gone ahead and decided to express themselves on here have done nothing more than become content slaves for the whales.

And if you say it's becoming more equal, well good for you, the whales aren't getting smaller and the need for their money is not going away.

A new platform must be generated in which everyone is equal from the start. No new money can be brought in, it must be open source and volunteer based and yes it will have problems. I see this as the only way.

I fully agree that downvotes are needed, that nothing is stolen, and communist seems very overstated... :)

I downvoted before they were free. I selectively read before I upvote and before I downvote. I don't consider who the author is and instead I try to objectively consider the content, relevance and engagement

If 10 people read a post and like it ... they can upvote it.
2 people hate it they can downvote it.
Most simply ignore it.

That is the wisdom of the crowd.

A group of people colluding on who votes too much for what, with complete disregard to the content or quality of the posts and with no communicated standards.

People are getting revenge downvoted, it doesn't take a lot of empathy to understand why this would shake up a small community. Not everyone knows who is on what team. All they see is a bunch of powerful people (stake, not skills or knowledge)

Don't take my word on it, just consider it.

'Wisdom of the crowd' applies when 1 voice is one piece of wisdom.
When 1 voice is wroth 50 xtimes the voice of another, it becomes 'wisdom of the oligarchs'.

A massive difference, and one that can't be changed, here.

The market knows - and see's - the difference, even if the oligarchs here are willfully blind to the flawed structure.
DPOS doesnt have to work like this, btw

Imagine 1 voice 1 vote on content, and 'dividend' payouts, annually, instead - based on the price of steem and the proportion of it that you hold/time over the year... THAT could be steem price rocketing! - (every one's headed in the same direcion then as well....Like we almost have the same vision, or something).
(no pedantic definitions of 'dividends' needed, ty -it was tho most effort I was going to put into painting the picture).

No salt, just sense.

There are self voters with big and with small stake. Your sense doesn't apply here.
1 voice 1 vote isn't possible due to reasons explained hundred of times already - there's no way to limit someone to one account on the Internet. None, whatever idea you might try to come up with, it won't work.

None, whatever idea you might try to come up with, it won't work.

I'm glad you enlightened me. I'll stop thinking now, and join the rest of ya..lol

You can of course keep thinking and try to solve a problem as old as p2p networks. Computer scientists all over the world will bow down before you when you do find the solution. One that doesn't require sending our IDs to Steemit Inc and letting them regulate access to the blockchain at least ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack

Computer scientists all over the world will bow down before you when you do find the solution.

How cool is that?

I might start thinking again.....

Of course if one person had one vote - on content - and payouts were yearly based purely on stake size -then there would be no financial incentive to use numerous accounts to upvote posts....zero.

This way - everyone would want to be upvoting what they saw as the best quality posts of their genre- to make the site more attractive-to attract more users- to grow the price- to get bigger payouts at the end of the year.

Just sayin'...

...the answers are easy - it's asking the right questions that can be tricky.

I'll stop thinking now, my nose has started to bleed...

If I understand right you suggest to get rid of content rewards? What would be the incentive for authors?

....to build a place that people want to put their eyes on, want to come to.

..thus increasing it's value, and the price goes up -thus higher payouts after the year..
Give each new user 30 steem (or whatever) to be able to post - locked in for the year.
Any increase in price, the money would be deducted from the growth - a net zero cost for steeminc.
For simplicity sake.....the price on joining is 10 cents per steem, the price after the year - and they decide to withdraw - and the price is then 20 cents.
The proportion they are entitled to is, say, $60 - they get $30. (the initial steem given to be able to post, is deducted).
Minus value - under $30 - it stays locked in. It's a win win.

It would give incentive people to put money into steem also, that way - you will be backing your own stables, ( not your own horse).

Then it comes down to all of us pulling in the one direction- to get the price higher, through improving the quality content of the site, and increasing eyes on it.
A common goal for all (one missing entirely at the moment).

Create the demand through increasing quality -It's always been a good strategy.

(My consultation fees are very reasonable, btw).

My nose is really bleeding quite heavily, now...lol

You hit the nail on the head. It's not the "wisdom of the crowd" downvotes that irk me as content creator. In fact, I don't remember ever getting one of those, and very seldom feeling the need to give one. It's the "a group of people colluding" downvotes that bring my blood to boiling point. Not because of the few pennies it might cost me, but on account of the injustice of it.

Pharsim is inspiring.

I just came down off a downvoting binge courtesy of a lovely list.

I also downvoted before it was cool. There were more things to downvote back then, too.

I didn't ask him not to downvote. I downvote also! :) I suggested he consider how it might feel and look to the community. :)

A lot of the community is confused. I don't know very many people getting downvoted for abuse, I know a few getting it for revenge. They generally understand why and maybe just regret following trails, etc.

I think it's those negligible -10% votes from accounts with less than 50sp that are confusing people.

It's confusing me to. What is the point?

I am very sorry to say this @pharesim I have always had you as one of the better Steemians in your behavior but I am really finding it sad that all the people who have constantly been cheerleaders for downvotes are now having to be constantly posting articles justifying why they are good. If something is good it doesn't have to be justified its effects speak for themselves.

If something is good it doesn't have to be justified its effects speak for themselves.

That is the best statement I have read about this issue in a long time. Congratulations on hitting the nail on the head.

The effects actually do speak for themselves. But there are myriads of posts and comments spreading FUD from those speaking from entitlement, and I had to repeat all these points so often the last days to make people understand, that I figured writing an explanation post I can link to would save me a lot of time.

The problem is it it nos just you there are dozens of posts justifying downvotes, if downvotes are good they should speak for themselves no need to be writing about how beneficial they are for Steemit every day, several times a day.

And there will probably be more as long as there are users who didn't get the reasoning yet. Explaining things is a tedious task, and FUD needs counterarguments to not grab hold.

Have another 100% for making the effort. I really appreciate it!

Thank you for helping to drain haejin's voting power :D

it's hard to understand for chinese
Do you mind translating into Chinese?

Haha. That would better be done by a native speaker who understands English too, I don't want to rely on Google translate.

Or was that an offer by you to do so? Then please, go ahead, that would be awesome!

I just checked the trending page and unfortunately, I don't see any progress in regards to quality.

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