People who are interested in a subject ask questions first, not throw false and dangerous accusations and ask later.
To be fair, this has been attempted and the concerns have been publicly made. What many people are still waiting on is an appropriate response and an actual reconsideration or end to the self-voting at 100% of the guild's power - a guild that was created to actually help struggling users, not those who receive plenty of attention and votes already.
Whether it's called "abuse" or not depends on who you are, obviously. But given the guild's stated purpose, the percentage of voting power used by it on everyone else, and the self-votes given to its "staff," there are legitimate concerns about its actual effects. And being completely dismissive about these concerns isn't exactly going to resolve them or inspire confidence in anyone who's asking questions that there's really nothing to be concerned about.
Finally a civil discussion, please allow me to respond in kind.
1st. Whales and founders powering down is a good thing as it helps to correct the drastic imbalances in STEEM power. Minnows powering down on the other hand cannot be viewed in the same light... especially if they expect to have a say over how the rewards system is utilized, since it is a vest dominated process. Simply put, if you diminish your own STEEM power you extinguish your own voice.
2nd. "honest criticism or concern" is generally framed better.
If the responses "just don't sit well "... the parties cannot continue to claim that no responses were given.
You operate in a guild yourself you know how things work.
The whales that provide the power determine the parameters under which the guild operates... its their power and their rules. Please see my posts linked below.
3rd. I can't say much on chats, in my experience they often exude the odor of a cesspool and differences escalate quickly.
I put up two posts hoping for open and honest discussion. I don't know if you saw them?
Well, first - I would argue that powering down doesn't necessarily mean that someone doesn't care about the platform...unless you think that most of the whales and even the founders themselves don't care, since they've powered down in the past and some still are now. So, I really don't think that's a fair argument.
Second - asking questions about guild operations isn't "incitement." What may seem like attacks to you may simply be an honest criticism or concern by other users. And honestly, the answers that have been given about some of those concerns - even if you feel like they were great responses - just don't sit well with the concerned users. There are legitimate questions, but it's hard to have a discussion when the people responding immediately start accusing others of "jealousy," "witch-hunting," and "in-fighting."
Seriously...how many times are we going to go down this road? Nearly every time a concern is raised, the first usual response is: "You're just jealous!" or "WITCH-HUNTERS!"
Then, we usually find out later that there really was an issue or that the concerns were valid and the issue was later corrected because someone actually voiced their concerns in a public forum. But the first people to come out are usually vilified for it...and later never apologized to for being shouted down and called names. Why can't we have a civil discussion?
Third - I can understand the frustration of users like @mynameisbrian. I was part of one of the recent chats where this stuff was brought up and discussed. It turned negative pretty quickly because two of the users simply wanted to attack each other. But ultimately, the questions weren't really answered, the concerns were dismissed, and everyone left frustrated. And to this point right now, nobody wants to take the concerned parties seriously. So, yes - I completely understand Brian's frustration. Nobody from Steem Guild seems to be taking this seriously and what is being seen as an abuse continues every day.
So, if anyone would like to have an honest and open discussion without flagging each other or calling people names, then let's have it. But if the posts like this are going to continue and members of the guild are just going to vilify others as disruptive or toxic, then I don't see how that's going to convince anyone that something isn't wrong. You guys do understand how that looks, right?
Minnows powering down on the other hand cannot be viewed in the same light...
That's not a valid argument. You don't know why they're powering down. And it also has no relevance to whether or not their concerns are legitimate and whether or not abuse is occurring. This argument is a red herring.
...the parties cannot continue to claim that no responses were given.
Well, in this case, either no responses were given to some of the questions/concerns or the answers simply did not address the actual concerns...they were just dismissive. Such as:
...its their power and their rules.
This is at the heart of the concerns about Steem Guild. "Their power, their rules" doesn't actually address the main concern about the guild's effects. And it certainly doesn't address the criticisms about self-voting with the guild's power - which, as I stated already, is supposed to be a guild for the express purpose of ensuring that certain users aren't being overlooked and unrewarded for their good content. But that's only one argument. There are many others. "Their power, their rules" doesn't cut it. That's not how you address issues with a project that was allegedly created for a specific purpose but seems to have several negative consequences/side-effects.
You operate in a guild yourself you know how things work.
I actually don't operate in a guild. But yes, I do know how some of these things work - and based on what I'm seeing, there are many problems with the operations.
I put up two posts hoping for open and honest discussion. I don't know if you saw them?
I did see them. However, I don't see the relevance to any of these discussions. I haven't seen anyone mentioning that there has been "draining of the rewards pool." I think the major point of contention (especially with Brian) was the self-voting of several personal accounts with 80-100% of the guild's power every day. That isn't necessarily a "draining the pool" argument.
But, since you've brought it up, do you not find an issue with two or three guild members regularly sitting in the top-five on the trending page nearly every day? Do you believe that this was the intent of the guild and that this is how it ought to be?
(I would love to not have this thread limit maxed, so if we can continue this on a new one, that would be great.)
Like when you said that JRcornel pays himself for promoting steemit on the chat.
Damn you #steemguild guys are so literal and have zero sense of humor.
But I guess that it is hard to laugh when the joke is pointing out your highly sketchy behavior.
Flagged for dangerous accusation of abuse.
Hey Look, it's jealousy and in-fighting on a post about in-fighting! (voting my own comment up 100%)
Care to address the self-voting issue coming from the #steemguild @the-alien?
People who are interested in a subject ask questions first, not throw false and dangerous accusations and ask later.
But nice try! ;)
Like when you said that JRcornel pays himself for promoting steemit on the chat.
I know it's false, you know it's false, everyone knows it's false. Yet you threw dangerous accusations knowing they're false.
You will be muted because trolls, witch-hunters and sociopaths are three major waists of time. You say you're neither?
Maybe you're right, maybe you're neither. But your actions say otherwise, so you will be muted until further example of the contrary.
To be fair, this has been attempted and the concerns have been publicly made. What many people are still waiting on is an appropriate response and an actual reconsideration or end to the self-voting at 100% of the guild's power - a guild that was created to actually help struggling users, not those who receive plenty of attention and votes already.
Whether it's called "abuse" or not depends on who you are, obviously. But given the guild's stated purpose, the percentage of voting power used by it on everyone else, and the self-votes given to its "staff," there are legitimate concerns about its actual effects. And being completely dismissive about these concerns isn't exactly going to resolve them or inspire confidence in anyone who's asking questions that there's really nothing to be concerned about.
Some valid points, but in many instances the parties asking the questions don't really seem to want an answer, simply to push their own agenda...
Numerous answers have been given on this matter in a number of forums but the incitement continues.
Isn't it amazing how trolls on steemit often disguise themselves as "defenders of the rewards pool".
How is the "community" supposed to take someone that claims to have the long-term growth of steemit at heart (@mynameisbrian), that is powering down?
Finally a civil discussion, please allow me to respond in kind.
1st. Whales and founders powering down is a good thing as it helps to correct the drastic imbalances in STEEM power. Minnows powering down on the other hand cannot be viewed in the same light... especially if they expect to have a say over how the rewards system is utilized, since it is a vest dominated process. Simply put, if you diminish your own STEEM power you extinguish your own voice.
2nd. "honest criticism or concern" is generally framed better.
If the responses "just don't sit well "... the parties cannot continue to claim that no responses were given.
You operate in a guild yourself you know how things work.
The whales that provide the power determine the parameters under which the guild operates... its their power and their rules. Please see my posts linked below.
3rd. I can't say much on chats, in my experience they often exude the odor of a cesspool and differences escalate quickly.
I put up two posts hoping for open and honest discussion. I don't know if you saw them?
https://steemit.com/stats/@gavvet/draining-the-rewards-pool-the-numbers
https://steemit.com/stats/@gavvet/draining-the-rewards-pool-part-2-some-clarification
@gavvet
Well, first - I would argue that powering down doesn't necessarily mean that someone doesn't care about the platform...unless you think that most of the whales and even the founders themselves don't care, since they've powered down in the past and some still are now. So, I really don't think that's a fair argument.
Second - asking questions about guild operations isn't "incitement." What may seem like attacks to you may simply be an honest criticism or concern by other users. And honestly, the answers that have been given about some of those concerns - even if you feel like they were great responses - just don't sit well with the concerned users. There are legitimate questions, but it's hard to have a discussion when the people responding immediately start accusing others of "jealousy," "witch-hunting," and "in-fighting."
Seriously...how many times are we going to go down this road? Nearly every time a concern is raised, the first usual response is: "You're just jealous!" or "WITCH-HUNTERS!"
Then, we usually find out later that there really was an issue or that the concerns were valid and the issue was later corrected because someone actually voiced their concerns in a public forum. But the first people to come out are usually vilified for it...and later never apologized to for being shouted down and called names. Why can't we have a civil discussion?
Third - I can understand the frustration of users like @mynameisbrian. I was part of one of the recent chats where this stuff was brought up and discussed. It turned negative pretty quickly because two of the users simply wanted to attack each other. But ultimately, the questions weren't really answered, the concerns were dismissed, and everyone left frustrated. And to this point right now, nobody wants to take the concerned parties seriously. So, yes - I completely understand Brian's frustration. Nobody from Steem Guild seems to be taking this seriously and what is being seen as an abuse continues every day.
So, if anyone would like to have an honest and open discussion without flagging each other or calling people names, then let's have it. But if the posts like this are going to continue and members of the guild are just going to vilify others as disruptive or toxic, then I don't see how that's going to convince anyone that something isn't wrong. You guys do understand how that looks, right?
That's not a valid argument. You don't know why they're powering down. And it also has no relevance to whether or not their concerns are legitimate and whether or not abuse is occurring. This argument is a red herring.
Well, in this case, either no responses were given to some of the questions/concerns or the answers simply did not address the actual concerns...they were just dismissive. Such as:
This is at the heart of the concerns about Steem Guild. "Their power, their rules" doesn't actually address the main concern about the guild's effects. And it certainly doesn't address the criticisms about self-voting with the guild's power - which, as I stated already, is supposed to be a guild for the express purpose of ensuring that certain users aren't being overlooked and unrewarded for their good content. But that's only one argument. There are many others. "Their power, their rules" doesn't cut it. That's not how you address issues with a project that was allegedly created for a specific purpose but seems to have several negative consequences/side-effects.
I actually don't operate in a guild. But yes, I do know how some of these things work - and based on what I'm seeing, there are many problems with the operations.
I did see them. However, I don't see the relevance to any of these discussions. I haven't seen anyone mentioning that there has been "draining of the rewards pool." I think the major point of contention (especially with Brian) was the self-voting of several personal accounts with 80-100% of the guild's power every day. That isn't necessarily a "draining the pool" argument.
But, since you've brought it up, do you not find an issue with two or three guild members regularly sitting in the top-five on the trending page nearly every day? Do you believe that this was the intent of the guild and that this is how it ought to be?
(I would love to not have this thread limit maxed, so if we can continue this on a new one, that would be great.)
Damn you #steemguild guys are so literal and have zero sense of humor.
But I guess that it is hard to laugh when the joke is pointing out your highly sketchy behavior.
I get it... You love your cash cow very much.
Sorry to rain on the parade.
Actually I found you comic very funny, inaccurate, but funny.
You had me laugh out loud first time I read it, but spamming it in many posts?
It's getting a bit old.