Liberty, Freedom, Religion & Crypto: A Series: E.1 - Taxation is Theft & Unity - a Steemit CommUNITY Respectful Discussion.
I've long been wanting to openly have a running Steemit discussion on these topics with all of you. Maybe this post is the one that starts it?
There are plenty of things in the Crypto/Liberty space to discuss on the topic of Jesus - Christianity - Religion in general, etc and it ranges from people who believe nothing about religion / organized religion to various doctrines, to misinterpretation or things lost in translation / transliterations, to which version or to radical word for word biblical or other religious walking out of their faith word for word.
I want to listen to what you have to say, and hear why you feel this way.
I would like everyone to take a breath, be POLITE and RESPECTFUL to everyone here. That is my only ask and hope. I am not here to lecture anyone. I kind of want to step back and LISTEN to you -- the community, if you want the truth.
Why here?
Because the value and strength of online communities like Steemit -- build and derive value from respectful dialogue, with a focus on the DIVERSITY among us.
We are all human. We are all in this together. None of us are getting out alive.
I've said that MANY MANY times on here and elsewhere over the years. These are the fundamentals and commonalities which knit us together. It is not race, colour, creed, politics or gender.
Too often we focus & become myopic on what differences we have, rather than all the obvious similarities, which has always bugged me. Best example: The division of politics which is all lies + corruption anyways, built to divide us.
Too often PRIDE gets in the way of love, respect, and civil discourse. Consider that as you read, and type.
This is why there is no UNITY.
- Here is an example of just one of my posts on this subject here from months ago -- when I made the image just above here for that post. Note the title of the post and the date.
I will start this off with this today for you from the book of Romans, Chapter 13:
Romans 13: New International Version (NIV)
Submission to Governing Authorities
: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Love Fulfills the Law
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
The Day Is Near
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.[c]
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This is an interesting topic indeed. The idea of submitting to government authorities in all matters because it appears to be what Romans 13 is saying is a very pervasive belief in Western Christianity.
I have some thoughts and some questions on the issue, since you asked I'll play along:)
First, was it really Paul's intention to give commands for all Christians to follow for all time when he writes? I think it's at least possible that he was addressing a specific people, in a specific cultural context, advising them on how they ought to live in their day to day lives. Are we to take everything written in the epistles as laws? Do we need to keep women from speaking in assembly or make them cover their heads?
I would suggest that, no, the epistles weren't trying to give us lists of laws to obey: that would go against the entire point of the New Covenant. IMO Paul was giving pastoral advise to the Romans specific to them in their cultural context.
Next, saying that governing authority is ordained by God doesn't excuse immoral behavior at the behest of government. We can see that clearly in Acts, when Peter and John refuse to stop preaching the Good News, Despite being ordered to by the authorities. They still had a higher authority to listen to and so do we. If the governing authorities are using tax money to wage immoral wars, support immoral programs of infanticide, and punish people brutally who haven't committed immoral acts, isn't paying those taxes an act of corroboration? After all, Romans 13 specifically says that if you aren't doing anything wrong you shouldn't have anything to fear from the government, but that doesn't always match reality now does it?
Another thing: I live in the U.S. where the supreme law of the land is supposed to be the U.S. Constitution. If the current governing powers do not abide by the restraints placed on them by said Constitution aren't they in rebellion against the governing authorities?
As for the Crypto thing, I think it's an entirely legitimate, non violent rebellion against the corrupt forces actually co opting the legitimate governing authorities in the world by controlling the monetary supply. If there was legitimate money, i.e. honest weights and measures, then the governments of the world wouldn't be able to engage in all the immoral wars of conquest, and taxation wouldn't be so easy either.
Wow man, that is one of the best things I could read in a response!
I was offline a lot of today dealing with things, now replying inline to things more or less in the order they came in.
I think if you read the reply I gave here in the last few mins to the first comment in this thread, you will actually see my reply echoes much of what you said.
Garth, your comments are so awesome today, and fulsome. It was a treat to read your reply here my friend.
Thank you.
Followed. Thanks again.
Hey, it's great to see some fellow believers on here who have some similar interests/beliefs! I'm glad I found you.
Same brother.
It's an interesting and challenging passage, as are parallel commands in 1st Peter and Titus. Note that both Peter and Paul tell us what government's responsibility is directly in explaining why we should obey. The question is begged, "Do we obey outside of these examples of state responsibility?"
The answer is not easy, as there is so much variance. I think (I hate saying that on doctrinal matters, but this one is not as cut n dry as many others) that the matter does get right down to the heart of the individual and the situation. Some would accuse me of situational ethics here, which I strive to avoid as much as possible. I suppose it could be considered that, but I really don't think so.
We are to protect our testimonies. To whatever degree we are able, we are to be at peace with all men. If we are to get in trouble with authority, it should be for obeying God.
Some ordinances are merely extortive in nature. They serve no purpose other than to provide income for the state. We might break those without sinning, recognizing that we may have to pay a fee for having broken the ordinance. Paying the fee keeps us at peace.
There's also the fact that nothing in Rome compared to the overreach of today. Yes, their laws could be absolute and oppressive. But they could not record all your transactions, track your passport, etc. So, while I do consider the commands of God to be timeless, I also think that context must be considered so we can make a parallel application in a world that is in many ways much different than the first century church.
In the US the church has become too cozy with the state. Christians have been short-sighted in using the state to push a sort of social gospel through legislation. It's a form of abdication though, and is severely backfiring today, IMO. If the church would have focused on the gospel and not used the state to push morality, I think we'd find it far healthier and more powerful in really helping to change lives for the better, through Christ, rather than dealing with all this backlash.
A very interesting post dear friend @barrydutton, I will reflect on it
Upvoted and resteemed!! Sorry I've been mia friend. I've been sooo busy at work. 😊
I know buddy.
I like how we just check in once in awhile to say hi, we got each others' backs, I know.
God bless ya man, have a nice week, thanks for the support always.
From my perspective, Paul is saying that if you are going to play someone else's game, your are obligated to follow their rules. In that sense, taxation isn't theft if you're using their currency to transact your business. Fortunately, none of use are obligated to play anyone's game. And, it is when God has a body of believers who see the game for what it is, and can not be made to play it, even at the expense of their own life, the "authorities that exist" will come to their end because their purpose will be fulfilled (see Rev. 12:10-12).
I think crypto is very important to the future. I believe it's biggest problem currently is its fragmentation and the fact that fragmentation is increasing.
As far as religion... I covered that in some detail over the last week and you likely already saw and perhaps even participated in those posts...
That last one is a bit more aggressive than I like to write. My first two I intentionally did not berate or bash any religion. Yet I was challenged by a Muslim, and a Christian on the Afterlife one. This is fine until it starts devolving to the "You're either with us, or you're with Satan" type of rhetoric. That is what lead to that third post. Again, I prefer not to target any specific religions as I fully support freedom to believe whatever you want as long as you don't force it upon others, and you do not pass laws based upon it that impact others in a non-voluntary fashion.
My first post was another on the topic of Deism which I find beautiful, simple, and without malice. Yet this makes it a poor tool for control/manipulation and I wonder if this is why it is mostly a forgotten relic from parts of the past. So occasionally I write about it.
This week there seems to have been a strange attractor related to religious topics as I was not the only one to write some of this genre. Quite a number of us have. The clustering effect of reality... As the Deist would say Observe and use Reason. I observe the strange attractors, aka clustering in many places and find it very interesting.
It is funny because I was a preacher after I got saved LOL.
Nobody really knows that about me. There was a gifting of the Spirit God gave me to use with my language and speaking abilities and words.... kinda like you who has giftings in your words.
Also funny.... I have not seen one of those religious type posts you speak of this last week.
I have been kicking ideas around in my melon. Today I exercised my option and just knew it had to be done today after I woke up, it came out of nowhere planned at all.
I opened my computer, opened up the Steemit and just started typing.
1 Sam 15 --- Obedience is better than sacrifice.
I am glad you took time today to comment here and with me on your posts. We go in spurts eh.... we do not talk and then one day, so much stuff gets spilled btw us like a Liberty overthrowing of ideas and goodness
lol
I actually linked my 3 religious related posts in my reply to your post about Crypto and Religion.
EDIT: Which is obvious if I'd seen the parent post to your reply... DUH. :)
LOL.
I am offline by 10 pm my time (EST) or before nightly, due to my health issues, headaches, etc etc from the car running me over thing.
It is funny...... we do not talk that much like I said earlier last nite.... but every time I read one of your posts, even if I do not comment on that thread somewhere I see you...... you sort of always get my mind moving.
It is not something I realized or was cognizant of until the last month or so.
That is a very powerful gift you have especially for someone that has been damaged by a car running them over with some... issues now.
I really appreciate you man. I know I have said it and you have said same.... but I would rather invest my time encouraging people than anything else.
That is a really nice compliment I appreciate it.
That is actually my biggest personal goal. To get people using their mind, making their own decisions, learning how to appreciate people who disagree with them, etc.
I started thinking about the big problems in the world, and really the only thing I can do at the moment that might help in the future with big problems is get more people thinking, and hopefully they will go and in turn get even more people thinking.
If most of the population understood and could use critical thinking well then I bet most of the things we consider big problems today would not seem nearly as insurmountable.
I also know it can be a challenge to try to get people to think. They get too caught up in this WIN/LOSE concept of debate/discussion/argument. That is very limiting and can hide a person from the wonder that is there waiting to happen for all the participants. Everyone can be a winner if everyone treats it like a learning and teaching opportunity.
Labels can also ensnare us, box us in, etc. They are convenient for quick conversation, but it is important to remember we are all individuals.
Thanks for your comment. It meant a lot to me.
You make my synaptics fire buddy.
Interesting and very insightful. I'm a believer and I always wanted to really understand what Jesus meant by "give Caesar what is his...". What is your take on Jesus' words there?
I think there's a lot going on there, but it's interesting... The Denarius had the inscription, “Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus.” Jesus was the son of God, not Tiberius. Augustus wasn't God, and the Jews weren't to have images of any foreign god, which a Denarius was.
I don't think the Jews were prepared for the answer, they were expecting Jesus to endorse paying taxes or stand against it. Instead, He called into question whether or not they should even have them in their possession. One way to look at it... It sure shut them up quick.
It is one of the scriptures that like you --- I have always wanted to be able to interpret properly for myself, so I can live life the way God would like me to, and also be able to answer these types of questions.
I have studies the bible and related languages to some extent at a seminary and bible college type level.
Hermeneutics / Interpretation are courses taught at such place just for those reasons....
I wish I could always answer people correctly. But a lot of the time, I don't feel I can and I do not want to lead anyone in the wrong direction.... so I have always been mindful of that since I got saved in 2003.
I try to honour God with all parts of my life, since the NT does not discuss tithing as far as finances go. It says to "give" --- it does not say WHAT to give.
I also used to be a statist and very indoctrinated til my wake up really started geopolitically in 2008 or so.
Wasting our money (not biblical) -- stealing civil liberties (not biblical) -- being unkind to taxpayers (residents) -- not biblical.
Followed you awhile ago, I just wanted to say thanks again for the comments here HE.
Much respect! I appreciate reading the things you write about.
I love comments like this! They mean a lot to me my man!!
Thanks a lot!
The questioner was trying to set Jesus up. If he had answered the question directly, he would have condemned himself as one inciting rebellion against Rome, or as one opposed to the law of God. By distinguishing between that which belongs to God and Caeser, he disarmed the question. At the same time, he didn't evade it because the point was made that if one is going to live under the protection of governing authority, then they are to render to the power the support it claims to do its job as long as it doesn't interfere with following higher duty.
The western church has managed to focus on the illustration of the denarius and miss the message. The point being made had nothing to do with the denarius and everything to do with man being created in God's image. The religious elite who were trying to trap Jesus would have recognized this immediately.
Whose image does the coin bear?
The silent question in light of Jesus' response: "Whose image do you bear?"
Render unto God what is God's.
Bam, they found themselves guilty before God, especially in light of the fact that they were abdicating to Rome, with no possibility of rebuttal.
I try don't pay taxes. 😎😎😎😎
LOL, God bless ya man
Have a nice week my friend!!!!
Great post! But I had one question...
If taxation is theft, then of course the government shouldn't tax their citizens. But if the government doesn't tax their citizens, how will it receive the money necessary to run itself?
Thanks,
Max
Excellent questions. I am running short on time here today now...... I did not address this exactly.... but part of it in my replies in the last hour or so to others here if you do not mind having a look.
Informed consent is what I am getting at.
Thats fine, I'll look around.
Thanks :)
I'd encourage you to check out http://www.preparingyou.com/wiki/A_Free_Church_and_Free_Congregation_Report Here is a short review; The Free Church Report presents a unique path for the modern Church according the nature of the first century Church by explaining the duty and purposes of that institution appointed by Christ. While Rome declined under runaway inflation, corrupt government, martial law, and endless threats of war, the Christians found an alternative to the men who “called themselves benefactors but exercised authority one over the other.”
The early Christian knew rights and responsibilities were indivisible. They sought the right to be ruled by God by taking back their responsibility, through the service of “called out” ministers who lived in the world, but were not of it. Their government benefits came through a divine network instituted in their hearts and minds by faith, hope, and charity under the perfect law of liberty as their Qorban of the unrighteous mammon failed the Roman society.
Peace
Interesting input, I do not have much faith based interaction on here and I have studied the bible to some extent as well.
TY for the input -- stop by some recent posts of mine too!
#SteemitCampfire
shalom my friend!!