Life is a Natural Right - In response to "Abortion Is a Natural Right"steemCreated with Sketch.

in #life8 years ago (edited)

The argument was put forth in this article by @kyriacos that abortion is a natural right based on several perspectives.

  • The unborn is a parasite
  • The right of choice/freedom - "Nobody gives you the right to decide for the life of others."
  • His conclusion:

Abortion is an issue of entitlement. Some people believe that they can have a say about how other people treat their own bodies. The drama behind it is mostly for religious reasons. Most believers feel the right to “guide” other people’s lives because they feel that we are part of a greater plan. Truth or ethics are not and cannot be democratic if we value individuality. No matter what one believes about the value of life, no one has the right to impose their will on others. Our bodies are our only sacred property—not the will of others.

  • Most of his argumentation is found in the comments that followed, so I won't list them here. I will, however, address some of them in this counter-argument, which finds his argument flawed on every level.

Science

The claim that the unborn child is a parasite is actually only partially correct. It may be argued that there is a parasitic relationship, however, it is clearly not wholly so. A simple Google search provides tons of scientific material for this discussion. An honest assessment of the vast majority of it clearly makes the case that the unborn is not a parasite. Search results here.
First, the child is not invasive. It did not originate elsewhere. It's life was the product of the mother. Parasites are not dependent upon the host for their origin. If one attempts the "tumor" argument, then it must also be pointed out that tumors are unhealthy spontaneous results, contrary to pregnancy. Furthermore, tumors are part of the host's body, sharing the same DNA.
Second, the relationship is not purely parasitic. It is, in many ways, symbiotic. This is because the placenta regulates the nutrients between the mother and the child, striving for a balance that ensures the health of both. The function of the placenta will actually favor the mother's health over the child's. A study of the p110a gene will help bring more light to this, for those who care to dig further. Cambridge University did an extensive study on it.
Third, cells under a fingernail have the exact same DNA of the host from which they were "scratched". The unborn has its own unique DNA, distinct and yet wholly dependent upon the mother's. This means it is a distinct life, while at the same time distinguishing it from a true parasite.

Human Rights/Freedom

This is pretty basic. Either murder is objective or it's subjective. If murder is the taking of a human life, then abortion is murder. Otherwise, it must be given subjective parameters.


Pixabay

Libertarians for Life, a non-religious group, offers a sound argument against the parasite argument from a classic liberal perspective here. There's plenty more to read, here.

One popular misconception is that libertarianism as a political principle supports choice on abortion. And major elements within the libertarian movement (the Libertarian Party, for example) take abortion-choice stands. Nonetheless, libertarianism's basic principle is that each of us has the obligation not to aggress against (violate the rights of) anyone else -- for any reason (personal, social, or political), however worthy. That is a clearly pro-life principle. Recognizing that, and seeing the abortion-choice drift within the libertarian movement, Libertarians for Life was founded in 1976 to show why abortion is a wrong under justice, not a right.

Dr. John Cobin, Phd (Public Policy & Economics), provides more insights from a libertarian public policy perspective in his excellent book, Pro Live Policy. You can view/download it here.

Abortion is the taking of innocent life on purely philosophical grounds as part of the doctrine of natural rights. Hence, the issue of abortion does not fall in the pale of religious sentiment, but has to do with the right innocent people have to live. If a pluralistic society has any common goals, the preservation and protection of innocent life must be one of them.

EDIT: When I informed Dr. Cobin that I had used this particular material, he suggested I add his article, Abortion Policy and the Market, published in the Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies. He thought it would be more "credible" for readers.

The only truly scarce resource is the human mind. All other things that are commonly considered to be scarce can be found in more abundance, synthesized, or replaced through the powers of the human mind (Simon 1996). Yet abortion is perhaps the most potent enemy of the human mind, as abortion policy destroys the one thing in life that truly cannot be replaced.

If we affirm the non-aggression principle, we cannot aggress against the life of another. Contrary to the "parasite" argument, the child is not aggressive. It is dependent, for sure. It shares nutrients, without doubt. But it does so, rather than invasively, passively as a good and necessary product of procreation (the actual free "choice" in this discussion).

It is tragically fascinating that someone can argue repeatedly that nobody has the right to control the mother's body while at the same time claiming that the mother has the right to control another's body - one that is solely the result of her activity and dependent upon her because of her. What a horrific irony.

Legalities & Modern Medicine

This one is actually pretty easy, in spite of Roe v Wade. A simple list of medical reasons an unborn child is a human being, from here:


Freeimages

  • Unique DNA
  • Organs distinguished by three weeks
  • Heartbeat in 18 days
  • Facial features at four weeks
  • Circulatory system developing at five weeks
  • React to touch at six weeks
  • Brainwaves deteced at six weeks
  • Ear observed at six weeks
  • Movement clearly evident at eight weeks
  • Yawn and suck thumbs at nine weeks
  • Fingerprints at ten weeks
  • Pulls away from invasive abortion procedures at thirteen weeks

Biologically speaking, the life of a human being begins at the moment of conception in the mother’s womb, and as a general rule of construction in the law, a legal personality is imputed to an unborn child for all purposes which would be beneficial to the infant after its birth.... A child unborn at the time of the death of its parent has also been considered a “child” of the decedent in determining beneficiaries of an award in a wrongful death action or in a workman’s compensation case.
42 Am. Jur. 2d, “Infants,” sec. 2. from here, as are the two following quotes.

Medical authority has long recognized that an unborn child is in existence from the moment of conception.... All writers who have discussed the problem have joined in condemning the total no-duty rule and agree that the unborn child in the path of an automobile is as much a person in the street as its mother, and should be equally protected under the law.... Most courts have allowed recovery, even though the injury occurred during the early weeks of pregnancy, when the child was neither viable nor quick. Viability, of course, does not affect the question of the legal existence of the unborn, and therefore of the defendant’s duty, and it is a most unsatisfactory criterion, since it is a relative matter, depending on the health of the mother and child and many other matters in addition to the state of development.
Prosser and Keaton on Torts, 2 ed., sec. 36 (1955).

If the mother can die and the fetus live, or the fetus die and the mother live, how can it be said that there is only one life? ...The phenomenon of birth is not the beginning of life; it is merely a change in the form of life. The principal feature of that change is the fact of respiration.... A baby fully born and conceded by all to be “alive” is no more able to survive unaided than the infant en ventre sa mere. In fact, the babe in arms is less self-sufficient–more dependent–than his unborn counterpart.... The fact of life is not to be denied. Neither is the wisdom of the public policy which regards unborn persons as being entitled to the protection of law.
O’Neill v. Morse, 188 N.W.2d 785 (Mich., 1971).

Linked above, Constitutional Personhood of the Unborn Child by Robert C. Cetrulo, points out that flawed legal and medical backing of abortion by providing evidence of human life and laws to defend it. Of course, we don't agree with all laws and may (and may have a duty to) disobey them if they are immoral. But the argument should carry a great deal of weight, regardless of where one finds themselves in the discussion.

Princeton has a page dedicated to the affirmation that "human life comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote".

Conclusion

I could provide more, but few will even bother to read what I've submitted to this point. The argument for the "right" to abort is flawed on multiple levels. It's an emotional plea for freedom couched in the rights of one person, with no regard of the destruction of another that exists solely as a result of the first person's actions. In essence, it's the wanton destruction of life and freedom in the name of life and freedom.

Reflection

Future generations will look upon this period of time as one of the great atrocities of history. Like slavery, the many genocidal efforts and war-mongering for profits, abortion in the contemporary westernized cultures, the snuffing out of the lives of more unborn per day than died on 9/11, will instill a sense of wondrous horror on historians who study our times, incredulous that a people making such great advances in so many spheres of science could fail so utterly tragically and grievously in this one - based purely on the scientific evidence that has stared us in the face for many decades.

Steemin' on,
Another Joe



Logo courtesy of @oecp85

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It is tragically fascinating that someone can argue repeatedly that nobody has the right to control the mother's body while at the same time claiming that the mother has the right to control another's body

How do you account for the fact that you can't control the mother's body? You can't stop a pregnant woman from drinking vodka all day, for a quick example. Have you adopted any children with FAS?

So, you're right about this:

one that is solely the result of her activity and dependent upon her because of her. What a horrific irony.

The mother isn't dependent on the fetus. The fetus absolutey needs the mother. Even more than a parasite needs a host! Funny that. It's only truly symbiotic for the fetus. The mother stands to lose something in the process, there are risks to her health. Risk that are largely dependent on the individual. Anti-choice people have rose-coloured glasses on with this issue.

My personal choice; I'm not going to remain celibate because I can't use birth control other than condoms and rythm method. And I certainly ain't going to miss out on the feeling of a bare cock in me with someone I love, at the time when I want it the most. I'd certainly get an abortion if all other things failed and I ended up in that threatening condition. I'm not willing to sacrifice my quality of life for other people's misplaced ideas of 'murder' and 'innocent' lives. Hell, I'd go to war over it. As limiting women's freedom to safely terminate a pregnancy does violence to our existence.

"Meanwhile, this post shows Medea and her children in a happier moment."
source: http://bestlatin.blogspot.ca/2010_01_01_archive.html

Human reproduction occurs in wombs. Nothing you or anyone can do about it. Developing humans were put there by choice, even if involuntarily (rape). Neither of those facts justifies one person (mother, doctor) taking the innocent life of another. At 5 1/2 months (preferrably laer), the woman can opt for a C-section and give the baby up for adoption. Until then, the fact that she made a "mistake" (or a crime was committed, in which case punish the criminal not the innocent baby) , does not give her the right to kill someone else for her convenience. As a consequece of her choice, she has to "suffer" and carry the child until he can be taken out of her.

Human reproduction occurs in wombs. Nothing you or anyone can do about it. Developing humans were put there by choice, even if involuntarily (rape).

That doesn't make any sense. an unwanted pregancy is not chosen

does not give her the right to kill someone else for her convenience. As a consequece of her choice, she has to "suffer" and carry the child until he can be taken out of her.

I realize that theres an expectation that women should suffer and be self-sacrificing for the sake of abstract concepts and babies. Some people really like the idea. Perhaps its even the primary factor in adopting anti-choice beliefs for some people. In the case you mention, the suffering doesn't end after the baby is gone; both physical and psychological. Who knows how long the suffering continues. Maybe the rest of her life. Even women who opt to give birth develop a type of love-hate for their infants and children born with it from the sacrifical nature of the whole ordeal. It's a big deal (pregancy) --not something that can be suggested 'just get used to it' in that cavalier way. A woman is just as innocent, anti-choice religious-derivative ideations that having a cock inside her make her less 'innocent' are life-negating.

The fact that you think you can dictate a course of events of someone's life like that shows you think of women generally as abstractions rather than human. The way anti-choice people speak of women and pregnancy is cold and detached. It's like a person going to court for a crime, standing there while two other people debate the conditions of their sentence.

Why do anti-choice people care? Why is a fetus their pet issue regarding 'saving lives'?

google search is not evidence. You can literally google search anything and find evidence. it is called confirmation bias.

If we affirm the non-aggression principle, we cannot aggress against the life of another. Contrary to the "parasite" argument, the child is not aggressive.

The fetus doesn't share nutrients. it only takes. It cna kill the mother for it to survive and we have plenty documented cases that it does so. Science agrees

http://www.livescience.com/24127-fact-check-walsh-pregnancy-can-kill.html

It's an emotional plea for freedom couched in the rights of one person, with no regard of the destruction of another that exists solely as a result of the first person's actions. In essence, it's the wanton destruction of life and freedom in the name of life and freedom.

You use too many words with freedom making little to no sense

Future generations will look upon this period of time as one of the great atrocities of history. Like slavery, the many genocidal efforts and war-mongering for profits, abortion in the contemporary westernized cultures, the snuffing out of the lives of more unborn per day than died on 9/11,

Sensationalising it with such wrong parallelisms won't cut it pal.

I'm not religious, but I have a moral and ethical issue with abortion. So for others to suggest it's just about the religious trying to exert their control over others misses the point. However, this is just my personal point of view, and it isn't one I seek to enforce on others. I understand the nature of the topic, and it does have grey areas. But ending life is not a right, it's perhaps more of a necessity at times in people lives.

As for the unborn fetus being a parasite - I'd not heard that argument. If that were the case, then I'd think that an argument could be made to say that all life is parasitic.

Thanks.
I was very careful to keep religion out of this one. Everyone knows that argument. It's very clear. So is this argumentation, if one is willing to be objective.

I normally stay out of these type of discussions. But I appreciated your post, and the expression of your thoughts, and just wanted to have an input. My personal perspective on these matters is that we, as a species, are innately flawed (for reasons best left to another discussion :) ), and part of the expression of that flaw is found in issues like abortion. To philosophise about whether a fetus even constitutes life or not is indicative of that human flaw. Enough from me - carry on.

I'm not a childkiller!

Weighty facts and arguments. As a conclusion, we should much more take care and give support to poor families. In case of heavy damage or illness of the embryo I'm not sure wether to seriously consider an abortion.
Anyway, upvoted and resteemed.

Thank you for your input and resteem!
As per the argument above, human life is human life. It's a very slippery slope when we justify snuffing it out. If an unborn child is showing signs of deformity or some form of retardation, do we have the right to end it? If in the womb, then why not outside of it? Then what about alzheimer sufferers? Head injuries? Paraplegics? Where does it end? Many totalitarian regimes have taken steps to eradicate the less healthy or undesired segment of the population based on similar thinking.
Either a life is a life or it is not.

Majesalum Majes tweeted @ 06 Nov 2016 - 03:03 UTC

steemit.com/life/@anotherj… / https://t.co/AMaBL3RsH2

Disclaimer: I am just a bot trying to be helpful.

Thanks for putting this out there. Much needed. Resteemed.

Both the "ultimate resource" theory of the human mind (Simon 1996) and the "future of values" theory (Cobin 2003) demonstrate that abortion is unethical and destructive in terms of economic development. Moreover, the legal fiction of "personhood" that is used to reduce certain human beings to a second class status--just like black slaves in past centuries--gives too much authority to public policy over our lives, and is artificial and specious (if not spurious) on its face. Finally, the Dohonue and Levitt (2001) ends-justifies-the-means argument that abortion policy is worthwhile since it reduces crime, only begs the question: 'If crime reduction is the key objective, then why not just abort all unborn human beings and eliminate future crime entirely? We can also eliminate 100% of automobile accidents by making them illegal to own, manufacture or drive. But is that the kind of world we want to live in? Ends justifying the means arguments do much more than just beg the question.

ethics are subjective. what is ethical for you might not be for someone else. science cannot prove or disprove ethics since they are human constructs.

A pregnancy CAN kill. that's all you need. Also, mentioning only the research that supports your arguments is not actually science. google, critical analysis.

http://www.livescience.com/24127-fact-check-walsh-pregnancy-can-kill.html

Only fallopian tube pregnancies can lead to maternal death, and the unborn human being's death, too. A choice is made in that case for self-defense of the mother. With modern technology and C-sections, there is no reason that a pregnancy would cause a woman to die. She might die in a hospital by accident during any procedure, although the risk is low. And it is not directly caused byt the unborn human/child and hence no justification to kill him. I suggest that you read the articles cited so that at least you can make an informed argument if you choose to maintain it.

Only fallopian tube pregnancies can lead to maternal death, and the unborn human being's death, too.

There 1000 ways a pregnancy can go wrong.

thank you for playing doctor

With modern technology and C-sections, there is no reason that a pregnancy would cause a woman to die.

Dude. Please.
http://qz.com/400530/american-mothers-die-in-childbirth-at-twice-the-rate-they-did-in-2000/

She might die in a hospital by accident during any procedure, although the risk is low.

Any risk of death, even 1% is still high.

And it is not directly caused byt the unborn human/child and hence no justification to kill him.

ofcourse it is. check the studies.

I suggest that you read the articles cited so that at least you can make an informed argument if you choose to maintain it.

I did. I suggest yoy check the facts as well..(beyond the ones that justify your position)

enough with the religious justifications in here.

Amazing reply
Thank you for writing this.
:D

xD

http://www.livescience.com/24127-fact-check-walsh-pregnancy-can-kill.html

A pregnancy can kill. That's all the argument one needs. back to school boys

I already stated that i was not talking about when the motherwill die or rape victims. I was talking about people that choose to get preo.

LMFAO!
you reply with a link to a fact check site that starts out by saying "A Republican congressman's claim that advances in science" .............

Funny to me when people go to fact checkers instead of doing some research them selfs and making their own conclusions.

Also That is information you should be giving to the people choosing to get prego that we are talking about. maybe then they can choose not to get prego if they don't want to take that risk. we live in a world where there are many forms of birth control.
If you are making choices you should be responsibil for your actions.
If a guy gets a girl prego and he doesn't want to have a kid in the world he has no say in it. but it is because he is being held accountable for what he choose to do. he could have taken the male pill or worn a condom or not fucked the chick or any of the other options out there. It is a murder of a human life because someone choose to take that path.

I think you got me mixed up with someone else or something because im not saying make it illegal or that the option shouldn't be out there. I just think being pro baby killing is a bad look when it could have been prevented with education instead of taking the lazy unresponsible and stupid route of choosing to get prego then killing the baby later.

Im done, im sck of trying to defend why we shouldn't kill human babies from someone that thinks the world would be the same if hitler won ww2 and that everyone is racist ect........

Good day and good luck with your propaganda comrade. LOL

look man. you sound like a teenager. i am not going to debate with idiots. the info is outhere.

I answered you at everything. you are repeating the same thing over and over again so you in fact being an immature idiot by a dictionary definition.

memes won't cut it pal

answered everything, no.
The truth is in the block chain for anyone to see if they wish.
Good luck with the propaganda.
IM out, get your last word in if you like but i think my points about choice are there weather you want to ignore them and play your games or not. It comes down to choice and your supporting people taking the worse of the choices for some reason.
They have many other options out there so they don't have to kill a human life.
They are chosing to take that route and it is not something to be glorified. IMO

Note:
If murder is the taking of a human life, then abortion is murder
it's not.
Murder is Unlawful killing.
At this time Abortion is Legal so therefore it is legal killing.,NOT murder.

Your definition is subjective, based on the jurisdiction. This is an inherent flaw.
Basic human rights dictate otherwise, objectively. In common law, which more closely approximates basic human rights, murder is:

... killing another human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought is a legal term of art, that encompasses the following types of murder:
"Intent-to-kill murder"
"Grievous-bodily-harm murder" - Killing someone in an attack intended to cause them grievous bodily harm. For example, if a person fatally stabbed someone, even if she only intended to wound her victim, she could still be executed.
"Felony-murder" - Killing someone while in the process of committing a felony. Note that at common law, there were few felonies, and all carried the death penalty. For example, at common law, robbery was a felony. So if a robber accidentally killed someone during a robbery, the robber could be executed.
"Depraved heart murder" - Killing someone in a way that demonstrates a callous disregard for the value of human life. For example, if a person intentionally fires a gun into a crowded room, and someone dies, the person could be convicted of depraved heart murder.
Source

so if you don't like what the law says just define it away?
gotcha.
The bad guys do that.
Makes it difficult to tell the good from the bad.
that's just UGLY.

Law does not define basic human rights. In fact, it often defies them. Basic human rights are inalienable. One of them is the right to life, regardless of what some crony living on extorted monies and sitting behind a desk getting handouts from "supporters" writes on a piece of paper.
Historically, murder has been the taking of an innocent life.
In addition, I showed where common law IS that definition. Contemporary politics "define it away". If that's what you embrace, then you simply don't understand (or reject the concept of) inalienable rights and the non-aggression-principle, and embrace the state's jurisdiction over changing the meanings of words for political expediency.

EDIT to respond to your edit:

The bad guys do that.
Makes it difficult to tell the good from the bad.
that's just UGLY.

That's just the point. The "bad guys" redefined murder for political ends. It is indeed ugly.

It probably would have been helpful if you had used the quote in context as well, which also backs up the point.

This is pretty basic. Either murder is objective or it's subjective. If murder is the taking of a human life, then abortion is murder. Otherwise, it must be given subjective parameters.

Cherry picking out of context? Bad guys do that.

the law is a set of rules put in place and enforced by those in power. 'might makes right.' according to the law, always has, always will. 'Murder is a legal term. That is ALL I was saying. Don't put words into my mouth. I might bite.

I agree about 'rights'. Rights are inherent. Government can either protect them or infringe upon them. (guess what they more often do?)

When I used the term. The good, the bad, the ugly. That was a joke son.

Your definition is subjective, based on the jurisdiction. This is an inherent flaw.

that also makes your argument invalid since you bring legality into the subject as well as ethics.

double standards much?

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