@freezepeach: The Flag Abuse NeutralizersteemCreated with Sketch.

in introduceyourself •  2 years ago

freezepeachtn.png

Introducing @freezepeach, the service that encourages controversial topics and tries to facilitate diversity of opinion on steemit. The aim is to add an effectively neutralizing vote to posts or comments on the platform that have been flagged solely because of a difference of opinion. With a plethora of possible gray areas to be explored, this service will be a serious undertaking to say the least. Take this introduction as a guide to understanding the philosophy and reason behind this service, rather than interpreting it as a concise volume of guidelines set in stone.

The Problem


Undoubtedly, the flagging feature is a net-positive to the community in many ways, but with those benefits come some severe drawbacks. Currently, it is sporadically being used by some members to punish users for expressing a point of view (instead of just rewarding the content they wish to see). Reminiscent of Pavlov's dogs, it seems some wish to condition a response in anyone who may engage in what they feel is "wrongthink".

Not only is this a proven formula for future stagnation in the community, it opens the possibility for corporations, governments, and other potentially nefarious actors to effectively control what is and isn't allowed on the platform. With the promise of a censorship-free blogging platform built on the blockchain, many of the people fleeing to steemit are themselves victims of censorship on the various social media giants. When people join in the hopes of freedom of speech, only to find their content getting flagged, they can become both one of the biggest impediments to the growth of steemit, as well as some of the most dedicated spammers.

Is Flagging really Censorship?

Time and time again, the issue of flagging and censorship has been fiercely debated on steemit, and time and time again, it always comes back to the blockchain being forever, thus nothing is ever truly censored. In absolute terms, this is correct. Whatever is said on here, even if hidden do to low ratings, will always be available due to the very nature of the blockchain. But that begs the question: Does an action have to be absolute to be considered censorship?

According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the definition of censor (v.) is:

to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable
(emphasis added)

According to that definition, suppressing information is also considered censoring.

Does flagging plagiarists and spam constitute a form of censorship?

Is censoring necessarily a bad thing?

The short answer; yes, flagging is a soft form of censorship, and no, that's not necessarily something that's bad. We all use our votes, our stake, to decide on the content that gets put here, and that can be beautiful. But it's not likely to be sustainable if we allow dissenting views to be punished.

The Vision


With the need for witnesses to derive consensus on all future decisions that shape this platform, the very existence of steemit is predicated upon our ability to handle disputes as a community. By taking the proper steps and being vigilant, we, as a community, can help to ensure a flourishing open market of ideas while also keeping spammers, scammers, and plagiarists at bay.

The Mission


@freezepeach intends to neutralize "opinion flags" by (eventually) matching them vest-for-vest in the hopes it will dissuade users from focusing on the negative, and instead use their weight to reward content they like. This may also have the added benefit of incentivizing flaggers to comment with arguments or reasons they flagged, instead of letting the flag speak for itself. To provide transparency throughout, every post that is upvoted will be resteemed, and every comment that is upvoted will be featured in biweekly/weekly updates, along with other announcements or changes.

Defining a term like "opinion flagging" will be an ever-evolving process, but in general, here are some key elements to look for:

  • Flags on controversial topics
  • No comment from the flagger
  • No history of plagiarism, abuse, scams, spam, or flag wars for the flagged user

@freezepeach will like to help with all those who have been flagged for difference of opinion, but will likely abstain if the victim goes on the attack and becomes an abuser themselves.

With this service, users are given another avenue of dispute resolution, instead of feeling all alone and taking upon themselves, potentially escalating the situation.

How you can help:


  • Do not send donations. For the sake of impartiality, all donations will be sent back.
  • Follow @freezepeach to help upvote content that has been flagged, and to get an idea of what gets upvoted by this service.
  • Delegate SP only after you've seen the content that has been resteemed. and are sure you want to help.

If you have any posts/comments that you would like reviewed, or have any questions or concerns about this service, come join the discussion at freezepeach's very own discord server.


PLEASE NOTE: It is guaranteed that @freezepeach will upvote something you don't like. This isn't about deciding who is right, this is about allowing people to speak. This project is ran by @r0nd0n, or on discord as r0nd0n#5176.

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
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I don't understand the need to "counter" downvotes that are cast by other users because they were cast based on an "opinion" (which is unknown, unless explicitly stated).

It sounds like you want to counter a downvote that's based on subjective opinion by casting an upvote that's based on subjective opinion...and often just an assumption about motives.

But here are my questions:

Why is there no desire to counter opinion upvotes?

Why are upvotes made with "questionable motives" not scrutinized or vilified like downvotes?

Do you think that a service is really necessary to hunt down and counter only one type of vote, and do you think there can be negative consequences from this that might end up being worse than people receiving downvotes?

What happens if another account is created to counter your upvotes that counter the downvotes? And what happens if another account is created to counter the downvotes that were cast to counter your upvotes that countered the original downvotes?

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Upvotes aren't vilified like Flags because they cost no one anything.

A Flag can cost someone serious money (from the right whale) and many times the Flag is not justified or deserved. Convincing a whale (who flagged you) that he/she is wrong and should remove the flag is next to impossible most times.

I love the idea behind this service and welcome it to Steemit. The more diversity in opinions the better, if you ask me!

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A Flag can cost someone serious money (from the right whale)

A flag can never cost anyone money. The estimated payout for the post isn't final (or indeed even allocated to the author) until all the votes are tallied.

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I disagree, opinion flagging, with no comment as to why, is the single most dangerous problem steemit faces now. Some whales think it is noble to crush small accounts that express opinions that do not agree with their own views. The loss of income is sadly most telling when people leave in disgust, but flagging it to the point it can not be seen will reduce the income for any post.

The very core of this platform is the ability to have, and state your own beliefs. It also gives someone else the opportunity to to debate those beliefs, and to try to change those beliefs by that same debate!

Flagging for unstated reasons negates this possible advantage, and only serves to crystalize the initial person into a less receptive position for the next person who might actually want to debate the issue.

Flagging in this manner is why a lot of people left Facebook to begin with, and it has run off accounts that were producing good content, simply for offending a whale that most often makes no content at all!

This punitive flagging concerns me greatly! I placed at the top of the Engagement League this week, so I have a large commitment to steemit, BUT this single issue has led me to open a weku account, because I am not sure steem will survive this one issue.

:)>

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Hi @ats-david, I'll try to address this point-by-point and hopefully clear some things up.

I don't understand the need to "counter" downvotes that are cast by other users because they were cast based on an "opinion" (which is unknown, unless explicitly stated).

That's just it; people sometimes use a DV as a substitute for challenging an idea or opinion. This usually takes away any chance for meaningful engagement, and instead escalates things with negative interaction. If the very tool that is used to punish spammers, scammers, and plagiarists is also used to disagree with something, then not only is it a big "fuck you" to the person who was DVed, it also reverberates through to the little guys that are still trying to figure out their future on steemit.

It sounds like you want to counter a downvote that's based on subjective opinion by casting an upvote that's based on subjective opinion...and often just an assumption about motives.

The intent is to leave opinion of the post out of it, and basically judge whether it's a job for steemcleaners, or if it's something like tag abuse etc. The subjective opinion to DV a post is equally as valid as the UV that I may follow it with. And maybe, just maybe, the user will choose to leave his thoughts instead of a DV next time so nobody will have to assume, and discussion can begin.

Why is there no desire to counter opinion upvotes?
Why are upvotes made with "questionable motives" not scrutinized or vilified like downvotes?

UV reward nullification is a whole other topic, and one that other users like @smackdown.kitty are addressing. One of the main points of this place is the ability to be rewarded for making original content. Making the judgement call on what rewards to remove will have the strongest impact, and I think many are underestimating the ramifications of that.

Do you think that a service is really necessary to hunt down and counter only one type of vote, and do you think there can be negative consequences from this that might end up being worse than people receiving downvotes?

I do think that this service is necessary, and a glance around the comments here will show there are many others who agree. I do know exactly what I'm risking by doing this, and if someone were to obliterate my account for running this service, then I would take what I learn from that and move on accordingly.

I guess you could consider this my bellwether test to see if my future lies on steemit. My little vote isn't going to be anything significant without others chipping in, whether that's following resteems and UVing or delegating SP to the account. I want to know if the community thinks free speech is important enough, and also if this place is resilient enough against big moneyed interests using their swarm of bot accounts to control a narrative in the not too distant future.

As for you last question, I simply do not know. I can only do what I feel is necessary and see if the community support is enough to continue the effort.

"Flagging" is a lie told to you by the steemit.com UI.

In Steem, the blockchain where almost everything you see on steemit.com happens, it is a negatively weighted vote. You could also call it a a downvote.

The original design and scope for negatively weighted votes, which many people who have a stake in the platform understand, is that they would be used to adjust the rewards on posts for any reason including an opinion.

I'm sorry you've been misled, as the conceptual misuse of "flag" remaining on steemit.com mostly thanks to @sneak has caused much confusion. I've argued many times to correct it to "downvote," as have others: https://github.com/steemit/condenser/pull/1270 But it's been blocked, only causing to further create confusion and discord among Steemians.

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Who gives a f*** what the difference is!? This is about the impact of such actions .. power-abusing idiots, who can not generate original content themselves, but instead enjoy slapping down those who can .. they have made this place low-end and depressing .. people whoring after upvotes from people they do not like, and then getting kicked in the teeth by bloated punks who have nothing of any 'real value' to contribute .. except upvoting their little gang of parasitic bitches ... and for this reason 'this place' will be 'replaced' in the 'marketplace'. Ask yourself why there is no substantial "mass adoption" ... because people see low-brow rich punks throwing people into the gutter, for kicks .. no one with any self-respect wants to put time and energy into this!! ! **** TRAGIC ((EASILY AVOIDABLE)) FAIL **** !

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This post received a 2.9% upvote from @randowhale thanks to @kurtbeil! For more information, click here!

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This comment has received a 1.44 % upvote from @booster thanks to: @kurtbeil.

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I had no idea the debate between the terms "flag" and "downvote" was so contentious, but the intention of my introduction would not change if I substituted the two. Everything about this is related to the weight those two terms represent, and how that weight shapes the future of steemit. This admittedly ambitious and, imo, forward-thinking campaign is about allowing unpopular opinions to survive on their own merit, encouraging stake holders to use their weight to uplift the content they wish to see, and facilitating incentives for engagement and discourse to take the place of a downvote.

When a spammer gets downvoted, it is to punish him for that behavior. When a user gets the idea to copy/paste articles as their own, downvoting sends a clear and concise message that kind of action on steemit will not be tolerated. When a user voices an unpopular opinion, and a negatively weighted vote wipes out the earnings on that post, it sends a strong message to the author (and all the small fish who happen to see or upvote the post) the consequences of voicing it.

As many flee to here from the corporate controlled social media sites with the promise of a censorship-free blogging platform, they learn that censorship-free* carries an asterisks, and the fine print leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Sometimes these become the people that a thousand downvotes can't influence, the "self-righteous spammers", and their evangelism is detrimental to the effort and time that gets put in advertising the platform. To the uninitiated trying to wrap their head around how this revolutionary platform even works, this negative word of mouth can be enough for them to pass by all future mentions. By providing users another option to de-escalate situations, hopefully eliminating some of the negative feedback.

I hope you don't read this as a pessimistic outlook of doom and gloom, because I'm quite optimistic about the future of steemit. I'm investing my time and effort all in order to get a conversation going because I believe in it. The problems I'm hoping to address happen sporadically at best as of now. But, with the incentives downvotes carry, and the ever more formidible userbase gaining steemit the spotlight, big monied interests will not be far behind to use the tools at their disposal to control the information as they see fit.

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I can definitely see a difference between a flag and a downvote. With the current flag system I will only flag something that is obviously abuse(plagiarism, ID theft, etc..) I won't flag something that I disagree with because no matter how wrong I find that opinion, I feel like people should be able to express it and I don't want it hidden.

Now if there were a downvote feature that didn't hide a post but did allow me to show my disagreement with a post and use my stake to impact the rewards I would use it. I would use it for things I disagreed with (Holocaust deniers, racism, sexism, etc..) because while people are free to share their opinion I don't agree that they have a right to be paid for them. If enough people are voting their stake to downvote a post it should still be visible, but its up to the community to make the judgement on rewards.

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LOL at your example of "holocaust deniers;" have you looked into just how many times in history the "6,000,000" number has been trotted out? Now, why would that be? [Edit: there was even a TV show with that number in the title in my youth! -- "The Six Million Dollar Man".]

And "racism"? Why is it a bad thing for one to prefer the company of those who look like one, think like one, behave like one, and worship like one? I mean look at Israel, it's 75% "Jewish", and they have walls and immigration agents and procedures. What's good for the goose, etc...

I also think there's nothing wrong with "sexism" -- similarly, "discrimination" shouldn't be something illegal, because if a shop-keeper is discriminating against a certain class of people inappropriately, then the community should discuss this and decide to discriminate against the shop-keeper.

"Discriminating tastes" is a thing! Lately people have been forced to modify it to "discernment" because of the PC crap brigade.

(Note, not downvoting you.)

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I've got nothing wrong with open discussion, as I said in the post, so long as the only option is a flag I won't be flagging anything that isn't abuse. My thoughts on discrimination are sort of along those same lines. I feel like discrimination should be illegal when it comes to things you are born with (race, sex, age, etc..) However if it is something you have a choice in? Go ahead and do things your way, if people don't like it they will go elsewhere. For example, smoking in bars? Go for it, if enough people don't like it they wont go there. Religion? Thats your choice, if I don't want to deal with you because of some disagreement than so be it.

Are you saying you don't believe that the holocaust happened or just don't agree with the exact numbers that are generally accepted?

I'm always curious as to where people draw the line when it comes to what things they believe. Does the guy who believes the holocaust never happened laugh at the flat earth people? Do the flat earth people laugh at the hollow earth people? Does the hollow earth guy immediately dismiss the ancient alien guy as a loon? Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, I just enjoy seeing where people will believe one thing but immediately dismiss others.

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Where I disagree with you is I do not think discrimination should ever be illegal. If someone wants to not associate with people who have earlobe holes for whatever superstitious reason -- they should be allowed to eject earring-wearers from their establishment!

The community can then react to this inappropriate discrimination with their own discrimination, and not give that establishment business.

But I fear I'm repeating myself, and it seems you prefer a government-based solution. [Edit: discrimination within government should be illegal.]

Note also that "innate" characteristics still nicely fit into my paradigm.

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They do indeed fit in your belief system, I just happen to disagree. I do agree with discriminating against ear lobe hole man (earholes as we call those pierced wierdos...) because it was a choice on his part :)

For me personally I choose to draw the line for discrimination at things you cant change. Anything that you are choosing to do I've got no problem including you/excluding you on that basis.

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I think we're actually more closely aligned, then, with this thought: I agree that the community should shame those who discriminate against innate characteristics (like, my from-birth broken eye).

I disagree that "thugs with guns" should get involved (i.e., government). But I completely agree with a community adhering to its norms and rejecting outsiders who clash with those. Just, not rejecting by force -- rejecting by discussing their behavior and, if unwarranted, choosing to spend money at another establishment. Or starting a competing one, if none exist.

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Thanks for explaining that.

Just for clarity: If the name were changed from "flag" to "downvote", wouldn't this project still be necessary to protect people who were being downvoted solely based on someone (especially people with high steem power) not liking what they had to say?

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Whether its called a flag or a downvote makes no difference at all..

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Downvotes, flags, whatever you like to call them - they cannot take anything away from you, and they cannot silence any post that you make, and they cannot impede your future ability to make posts.

There is no need for "protection" from them.

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Thanks for my negatively weighted vote this morning @pfunk. Deservedly so after all my cheetah feedback. I always want steemcleaners to be the meanest, leanest plagiarising finding machine on Steemit.

I also wish to highlight SEO content machines like http://seocontentmachine.com/ plus article purchasing sites like http://www.ninja-creative.com/ We need to be aware of all the sources of original content MINUS the human! :)

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If the downvote was used as it was intended, then calling it a flag would be wrong.
However, the downvote is sometimes used by whales to obliterate a minnows rep, by constantly down voting comments by the minnow, often on the minnows own post and comments which usually don't even have 1 cent! The only purpose of the flags is to destroy a minnow for revenge and adjusting rewards doesn't even feature in the whale's reasoning.

For example, the way @berniesanders flagged @Skeptic into oblivion. Yes Skeptic made a post that annoyed Bernie and Bernie had a right to flag that post to remove the rewards but did he have to then flag skeptic's comments until his rep was down to -6? The first hit was a downvote but the rest were flags.
Maybe there should be separate down votes which affect rep and payout and only certain people, such as yourself, should have the power to destroy rep.
Edit: Ironically, Bernie's rep was flagged into oblivion while I was commenting to him about his treatment of skeptic and I think that that was wrong too, even though he did get a taste of his own medicine.

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the downvote is sometimes used by whales to obliterate a minnows rep, by constantly down voting comments by the minnow, often on the minnows own post and comments which usually don't even have 1 cent! The only purpose of the flags is to destroy a minnow for revenge

Nothing is "destroyed" or "obliterate[d]". Reputation is a non-consensus calculation, which means it is purely a UI function and does not affect payouts, ability to post, or ability to vote.

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A downvote merely indicates disagreeement; flagging should be reserved for things that would better off not have been published at all. We want to discourage flagging except in cases of clear abuse.

Remember, acerbic does not mean wrong. I will take an acerbic anarchist over a smooth talking marxist any day. Little girls who get their feelz hurt should not be able to destroy the reputation scores of others.... Or vice versa! We need to stick together.

Great idea. I've had triggered leftists flag my content in the past.

I'm on board!👌🐸

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Yup. Am there right now with ya my friend. Got someone flagging me, hopefully he will respond as to why.

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Feel free to drop a link in our discord or over on steemit.chat if it ever happens again.

Great move - I was just making squawking noises about this!

https://steemit.com/steemit/@sift666/a-censorship-threat-to-steemit

Following you now

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That post was one of many that helped inspire this idea. A really great read that challenged my ideas of the correct way to do things. Thanks for sharing.

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I was able to unflag the democracy is communism post you just shared, which was cool, but I'm just small fry

If you want a look down the rabbit hole, have a look at this story - it goes deep and the money is mind boggling. This is one of Steemits dirty secrets, but nobody is going to be talking about this!

https://steemit.com/steemit/@randompic/sweetsssj

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Can an author still get rep from upvotes on a post that is past payout?

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PS - did you notice my other comment on this post was flagged? - but a $44000 wallet is way out of my league!
That is an example of a subject that is censored on Steemit and why I'm opposed to the flagging scam!

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My understanding is that once the post is past payout the rep doesn't change either, but I could well be wrong about that.

This is an incredible initiative!!

I support this. Followed and resteemed, mostly because I think I'm going to need you at some point.

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Be sure and drop links to any posts you think were unfairly flagged in the discord.

Well conceptialized @freezepeach / @r0nd0n

The underlying community will make or break Steemit. The more well-intentioned ideas the better. Hopefully a few get picked up and meaningfully built into releases.

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I sure hope the devs can effectively put me out of business. Thanks for checking it out!

Sounds like a good way to make sure Steemit doesn't become a censored memefest like Reddit. Got my upvote.

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That's exactly what this is for. Thanks for your support.

I like the free speech approach of this. Good initiative. It is yet to be seen of the community will use this feature. Thanks for trying to make Steemit a better place.

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Thanks for checking it out @flauwy.

Followed you, @freezepeach
Wish you were around during the whale flag wars.

Great work my man.
Too many flags/downvotes have been appearing based on a difference of opinion which is unfair and not why they were created.
You have my support and vote buddy.

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I couldn't do it without you. Thanks for the support.

upvoted, followed and resteemed.

usefull post

Awesome followed and resteemed

Great initiative! This place has to be different than the corporatist fascist social(ist) media sites.

The market, uh.. finds a way.

Flags on controversial topics
No comment from the flagger
No history of plagiarism, abuse, scams, spam, or flag wars for the flagged user

These seem wholly subjective and likely to lead to absolute mountains of false positives.

This doesn't seem viable on this criteria. Your bot would need to read minds for this to work.

I like the general idea, though.

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No bot, this is all done by humans. There are plenty of mistakes that could happen, and a lot of gray areas to be explored, but hopefully the community can learn a lot from this experiment and be better for it.

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Oh, sorry, I totally misread. In that case, consider my observations retracted! Looks like a good idea.

This is great @r0nd0n, I will follow and throw my tiny minnow weight in when I think it's needed.
I won't need you until someone actually looks at my posts.
resteemed too, as I am sure this is going to be one of the key issues for the future of this project

This is interesting. On general, this may work well, even though I can't see if flagging for different opinions is yet a great threat to Steemit. It can however become one if it is not dealt with already now.

The problem always lies with bots automation. Are you going to be have some kind of plan to deal with people who are slurring comments like "kill all the gays" or similar, which can't be seen as opinions?

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Death threats will not be applicable for this service.

Interesting concept. Let's see how this plays out. You will definitely learn something. It will be interesting to see how the line is drawn between controversial opinions and opinions that are just mean spirited.

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The line will be at calls to violence or direct/implied threats of death. We need to have critical/contrary opinions to grow as a community, but once violence comes into the picture, that means that discourse is effectively over.

Freedom of speech is essential, even for idiots that don't agree with us.

Excelente, digamos NO a la censura.

Great job @freezepeach, I totally support this. I am Following you, please follow me too I will post daily with some great stuff.
I think I'm going to need you at some point.
So thanks mate

Is there a way of appealing a flag? Thanks for this info!!!

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Yes! Do no flag back, and drop links to any posts you think were unfairly flagged in the discord or over on steemit.chat

Indeed, a balance needs be struck between fairness and reality.
I have personally had my Reputation nearly destroyed for calling out what I perceived as fraud being committed by one user (and his network of wannabe crypto-gangsters). Though this action was brought about by my own doing and choices (calling one "out" before reading and understanding the "White Papers"), I can't help but relate it to what happens in the streets - away from the keyboard.
Let's say I produce a magazine or music cd, and there are those who do not like it. They simply do not have to purchase or listen to/read it (showing their disapproval, essentially a downvote/flag). Sure, they have options to take me to civil court (which costs them money to initiate), the option to picket the stores in protest which sell my product, etc. etc. etc. They have these and many more options to use in attempts to hide, devalue, or stop my product. Yet NONE of them have a direct affect on the value of said product simply based on the power of the opposition's opinion. There must be a direct attempt to counter my efforts with support either coming to them from the community or not. Never in the history of the economy's "supply and demand" model has the value of anything ever been negated or destroyed by the voiced opinion of one person.
Those who like and support the magazine/cd would normally purchase the product (showing their approval, essentially an upvote). Each individual is charged the same, no matter their own personal gross or net value. Bob does not have to pay $1 because he has only $200 in his wallet while Tom doesn't have to pay $10 because he has $2,000 in his possession....
I would propose a more realistic approach to the whole thing. Perhaps the flag option should not even be allowed in the case of posts (if you don't like it, don't upvote it). And if it remains an option to flag posts, perhaps it could be on a one to one basis (why should one Whale be allowed to crush the opinions of a few to dozens and even hundreds or thousands of Red Fish?). If 20+ Red Fish upvote someone's posts, why should one Whale be allowed to negate all the value and opinions of 20+ others?
Personally I would like to see the whole system redesigned as to not favor a Financial Oligarchy. I understand that those who invest more should have more influence and exposure here.... yet giving them so much power to crush those just starting here? Well, that's not to much different from allowing a certain North Korean leader to bomb any poor country he sees fit simply because he's been "investing in rockets for well over a year now, has been in politics since his birth, and because he's so much more wealthy than the countries he's bombing".
Just because one is rich/wealthy does not make their opinion any more valuable than that of the person who has not one penny. What about persons of wealth who got there either by having it handed to them (inheritance) or by stepping on and destroying as many people as they could during their climb to the top? Their opinions should not be any more valuable than the rest.
It's one thing to upvote in varying value amounts (donations basically, it's up to the individual just as in life itself - no one says you have to give or how much, it's purely a personal decision). It's a complete other thing to take value away (confiscate the donations of others; theft, which is illegal in life) - and to base the confiscated value on the wealth of the individual flagging is thee most ridiculously devised form of Class Warfare that I have ever seen in an online community.
Sad, truly sad.

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I really like this response. I've long held the contention that "one dollar contributed to government, one vote" would result in a much fairer system. Sure, a Google could pay a whole bunch of extra taxes and get some legislation changed -- but then they'd face competition the next year (and future ones) from other search engines/spy organizations, who could also contribute to the bloodsucking government (I'm not sure my position is clear, here... :) ).

Of course, that was in my more naive days when I believed that old phrase, "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help" wouldn't result in a negative outcome!

Anyway, I had a post "moderated to oblivion" simply because I included an affiliate link (and I think perhaps BitConnect might be a scam now, but it's too late, I'm already involved) and I noticed that I was able to remove the "oblivion" after I had funded my Steemit account. So there's one way to go about it, but, I understand that not everybody has the available funding. So a community solution seems the right approach.

I like differentiating between "number of votes" and "weight of votes". I'm certain that there's a "middle ground" algorithm.

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Thank You, I completely get where you are coming from (Don't let Uncle Sam watch the kids, and don't bend down when he's around ;) ).
You exemplified a point I tried to make in one of my earlier posts on the topic (in relation to being flagged).... Sure, I could have sunk some money into my account and "bought back" my Reputation, And yet this, to me, sure seems to only support the Oligarchy set-up being run here. Sort of defeates ANY purpose of content being the deciding factor of success or failure (rather than who can afford the success and who is doomed to wallow in the mud).

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There are a lot of good points in this dialogue between you two. I especially like the magazine/cd analogy, as it does a good job of illustrating the dynamics of the features here.

These are the kinds of conversations we need to make a better future for the community. Thanks a lot for the great input.

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Thank You.
It seems so hopeless at times, being a Red Fish just trying to stay afloat here. Especially when it seems the Value-Of-One's-Network has far more influence than the actual Quality-Of-One's-Content. When Whales can post "spam" (Like a YouTube music video with no commentary or just a copy/paste of the yt video's description) and have their Whale Network upvoting the crap out of it for big profits while a Red Fish post of personal pics or videos and personal experiences, etc. goes by unnoticed (and sometimes flagged by these same Whales).
How do we get back to Quality-of-Content being the deciding factor of whether one is successful or a failure? How do we stop such abuses and injustices of these highly valuable Networks of accounts/users of abuse/collusion?
As it stands, it's a moot point. The "solution" to have every Red Fish flag every spam or inappropriate post would leave little to no upvoting power for promoting others, and would surely trigger retaliation flags from those more powerful accounts of collusion. And add in the powerful self-upvoting abuse being used by these same collusion accounts.... it always comes back to a trickle-up economy in my mind (thus, the Financial Oligarchy label).
IDK, time will tell.

Great post dear ...... :) :)

You can see my blog post, I hope you like it
https://steemit.com/introducemyself/@jyotirmay/introducing-my-self-here-i-am-jyotirmay-drawing-artist

Good luck
@jyotirmay

Congratulations @freezepeach!
Your post was mentioned in the hit parade in the following category:

  • Comments - Ranked 1 with 91 comments

Good idea in theory all depends upon how it's implemented- I would suggest a council of some sort. Or perhaps you throw a case up as a post and followers have 24 hours to comment as to what course of action should be taken. Every precaution must be taken to preserve impartiality in both perception and practice.

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I will be resteeming everything I upvote, and compiling lists of comments that have been upvoted for all to see. I want the community to be the council, and their support (or lack of) to be the arbitrator of success. There needs to be an ongoing conversation about this topic, and I welcome any dissenting or contrary views to join in.

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IMHO- Seek the consent of the council and then upvote.

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That's not out of the question.

great job; I think the idea behind this is solid. Flags are an important feature of the site, but only if they are used in a responsible fashion. Just because someone says something we don't like doesn't mean we should be nuking their account for it. Let us save our flags for true abuses, and make them really mean something.

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Exactly! And every vote that's not used for a flag can be used to uplift some of the great content here that deserves it.

I wish this project the best as this could be very helpful to the community. To have somewhere to go for a "second opinion" in areas where someone just might need a hand when they find themselves being bullied into a corner with nowhere to go for help from perhaps someone throwing their weight around unfairly. I'm looking forward to seeing what this account curates and if it is what I hope it is I'd be more than happy to support a project like this. I was literally just searching robots to see if I could make something simular just a few minutes ago and then I see this post out of the blue resteemed by gmuxx and like I said it is kind of right inline with whats on my mind at the moment

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There have been a wave of posts recently on the subject, and the response on this post shows that it's touching on something real. Hopefully this is the spark that gets the conversation going in the right direction.

Cool idea and a great project and welcome to the community @freezepeach !

This post has received a sweet gift of Dank Amps in the flavor of 12.50 % upvote from @lovejuice thanks to: @soundwavesphoton. Vote for Aggroed!

What a great job man. All that hardwork will be worth it when this catches on!!!! <3
Upvoted~Deservedly, and Re-Steemed <3

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Thanks for the support! I couldn't do this without fine folks like you.

this may also have the added benefit of incentivizing flaggers to comment with arguments or reasons they flagged, instead of letting the flag speak for itself.

Well said--it is doubtful the flags are "self-evident."

Thanks for this great project. I am encouraged by this.

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It's all about keeping the conversation going. Without discourse, we're doomed to stagnation.

Great idea dude, resteemed for visibility

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Thanks @gmuxx, you're as awesome as they say you are.

Upvoted and RESTEEMED :)

I can see the need for SP, this is a very noble concept!
I like the "Follow @freezepeach to help upvote content that has been flagged, and to get an idea of what gets upvoted by this service." and"Follow @freezepeach to help upvote content that has been flagged, and to get an idea of what gets upvoted by this service." parts!
I will follow the advice.
I think I will be delegating some SP.
:-)
Namaste!

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Following and upvoting resteemed content is going to be the heart of this service, and users like you will have the chance to make a difference.

Thanks for checking it out, be sure to tell your friends.

This is so helpful. I remember a time here when the flag issue was at it's peak and almsot every other post i saw was about the flagging issue. I hope this goes well and wish nothing but the best.

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I hope the devs figure out a way to put me out of business. Until then, I'll be here to stay.

Resteemed! Thank you for taking the initiative, this is a great idea!

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I'm glad you like it! Tell your friends.

Good idea! I think this is a very helpful resource and not only rights a wrong, but encourages open discussion and communication. Thanks for being awesome.

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Thanks for checking it out @akrid. This is something that weighed heavy on me, and so all I can do is give it my best shot. To me, open discussion is the best way we can obtain knowledge. Too long we've had people in tall buildings with fancy titles decide what's appropriate for the common folk to know or say. Decentralized technology is leading us to an ever expanding market of ideas capable of organizing organically, and if we don't get it right (enough) on steemit, someone else will.

Please be sure to follow, and let me know your thoughts any time you want.

Excellent, we have to end the censorship that has been happening at Steemit, just because some people think they should censor.

Another point that has been happening is that some people suffer flag simply because they give upvote in their own comments. That is, some people want to force a socialism on Steemit, which I think is wrong.

Each one does what wants with your SP.

Sounds like a great initiative and sorely needed. There seems to be so much unwarranted downvoting going on at the moment. Every second post seems to be from some poor bugger being targeted for no apparent reason.

This is nice! I got flagged on this post https://steemit.com/flatearth/@crypt0/best-video-on-the-flat-earth-theory-why-do-you-believe-the-earth-is-round-anarchast for sharing my views and lost almost all my monetization because of it. The result was not an engaging discussion but I choose to disengage because I am far less powerful then this steem power abuser and would just be demonetized as a result.

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Well it's back up to $70 now. :) I think there's a decent crossover between crypto and awakening.

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This would fall under the scope of our services, but it seems that the problem has already worked itself out in your favor. Please drop a link in our discord or over on steemit.chat if it ever happens again.

"@freezepeach will like to help with all those who have been flagged for difference of opinion, but will likely abstain if the victim goes on the attack and becomes an abuser themselves."

I especially like this addition.

Very interesting @freezepeach. I am glad that I saw this post!

I'm torn, tbh. I get the frustration, and the appeal of this solution, but I worry that we're devaluing SP, particularly after hf19.
Any move toward equality between the haves and the have-nots makes being the former less desirable.
SP gives me scope to up or downvote without permission. If there are a new list of reasons for which I can't effectively downvote, then maybe SP isn't worth keeping so much.

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You are allowed to downvote anything you wish. That feature is available for all users on every post and comment. However, you may also find that your downvote gets cancelled out by others who are not of the same opinion as you.

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True, but not germane.
Imagine the flipside.
Imagine a service set up to downvote posts which have been upvoted for the wrong reasons.
Would this not hurt the use case for steem power?
If you are selling a block of land, you get a better price if it doesn't contain patches of thorns ready to frustrate a prospective buyer's plans.

Great idea, until now, I never had that problem, but nevertheless following and supporting you!

this is the best and so desperately needed by many including me. Thank you thank you thank and giant bear hugs to you for this wonderful initiative. You most definitely have my ongoing support.

thanks you for doing this and any help on the linked situation below is greatly appreciated

https://steemit.com/minnowsupport/@aaronmda/fubar-bdhr-still-trying-to-play-the-victim-despite-his-continued-attack-on-me-which-he-started

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Be sure to drop any links in our discord or over on our channel at steemit.chat

Welcome to steemit and great post.

I found a whale user who I know to be an avid proponent of communism flagging a post critical of communism simply because he disagreed with the content. I find this to be repulsive behavior antithetical to the purpose of steem. @freezepeach please review this post: https://steemit.com/freedom/@jjyeshua/5r5rwq-democracy-is-communism-in-disguise

Thanks.

Some fucker abusively flagged my original post, steemit seriously needs to fix this. https://steemit.com/steemit/@jefft/steemit-flagging-abuse-any-solutions

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Hi @jefft, please join our Freezepeach discord server or our channel at steemit.chat so we can get this sorted out, and please do not flag back or comment on the flagger's posts while we get this sorted out. Thanks.

@freezepeach I love what you are doing! This is a much needed service, to fix a problem that could significantly damage steemit!

Keep up the good work!

:)>

What a beauty-full initiative. Thank you so much for your service @r0nd0n & @freezepeach :)

Much Love & Bright Blessings!

Why did you call it "freezepeach?" From what I've seen, that term is usually used by SJWs and the like to mock objections to their often censorious demands. Is it a reclamation sort of thing? Should we also make a bot named "shitlord?"

Someone please make a bot named "shitlord."

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We're taking it back!
porch-monkey.png

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"I wasn't even supposed to be here today!"
Good thing I was, or I would have missed this.
Definitely one of the most interesting threads I have seen in my short time on this platform.

Welcome to Steemit freezepeach.

Hello @freezepeach. Welcome to Steemit. I am David. I wish you have a happy journey here.

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People like you are the reason we need flags. You add no value with this repetitive, disingenuous nonsense. Stop it.

Welcome to Steemit!

Congratulations @freezepeach! You have completed some achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

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Notifications have been disabled. Sorry if I bothered you.
To reactivate notifications, drop me a comment with the word NOTIFY

Hello :) I really like your idea, and I'm yours follower already ;)

giphy.gif

freezepeach have fun steeming and making money.

I support any initiative that involves peaches and free speech, great idea though seeing the discussion in this thread I'm sure you may have some kinks to work out.

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There are plenty of kinks to work out, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

I like the idea. A review from an impartial person to make sure the flag/downvote was fair. I have seen posts that not visible because "not popular" or some such error message. So who made that decision. For those of us who are new and are trying to get our footing this would be frustrating. Also if the person's spams and the post get downvoted, does anyone the writer what they did wrong? Blind punishment or helpful correction, which is better for the Steemit family?

Welcome @freezepeach :)
wish you Best of luck
I am @sitara12511 Follow me and Feel free Contact with me
for Profitable Tips

If I disagree with a post then I just won't vote on it, but I may leave a comment. I'm reserving flagging for spam and plagiarism to help to discourage behaviour that damages Steemit

Too sad to think that some people abuse the flag button for their own interest.. i'm following you now.

Congratulations @freezepeach! You have completed some achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

Award for the number of upvotes received

Click on any badge to view your own Board of Honor on SteemitBoard.
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If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

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Upvoted and followed :)

Do you still run this service? The discord channel seems to not exist. I made the Top 80 on this post on my second day in steemit. My rep was almost halved for what was for an innocent comment in a whale war. I didn't abuse anyone; all I did was point out that the post was actually serving as advertising for the person they were seeking to destroy.

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Sorry for the late reply. Yes, the service is still going, and you can drop any links in our discord at https://discord.gg/fmE7Q9q in the #flag-review channel if you have been flagged.

Thanks for the post! I have my own post regarding free speech, but I'm small and no problems, yet. But I'm sure to right some more, so who knows. It's good there are people willing to protect people accused of wrong-think, whatever that may be. Good luck!

Welcome to Steemit :)

I think this is a good idea...
as long as it does not counter the good work of @steemcleaners

Original content is what the Platform Desires.. (i know because late at night, it whispers it's desires to me)

It is what we should all aim for.. ... a place to voice your opinion, tell your story, sing your song, share the information that you have uncovered... etc. etc.

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I don't imagine I'll ever be stepping on @steemcleaners' toes; their job is hard enough as it is, and it's a much needed service in this community.

Great initiative, I'll help you if I can

This is wonderful, I think we found a community that's been abused and that will stick together and support each other. I saw one of these reputation power abusing girls calling someone insolent while trashing their score for no reason. INSOLENT! Like he has 6 fingers and this is the Pit of Despair in Princess Bride. This abuse has to stop. Furthermore, it is an abuse of Terms of Service to disable someone's account. Hiding their posts is CENSORSHIP. When your score falls too low you cannot even put a picture on your posts. CENSORSHIP. I came to steemit for free speech. @kryptik and @apsu dropped my score from 31 to 8 for no reason whatsoever and kryptik had the nerve to call himself an anarchist WHILE he was censoring me. Do it to it Peach!

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Don't forget to add that I all asked is that you quit stalking me.

Oh and that you flagged me 17 times before I even flagged you.

Stop playing the victim.

If you need to verify these facts, the blockchain doesn't lie.

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@way-truth-light, your brash approach has done you no favors in this situation. You may want to reconsider how to approach things, especially when you're not on your blog. You have went on the attack as well, so that needs to be straightened out before I can help.

This is a free service, and resources are limited. There is no reasonable way to get down to the bottom of every flag war that happens, but hopefully this service can provide sufficient means to stop a number of future flag wars from happening by neutralizing the downvote instead of returning one.

Currently, it is sporadically being used by some members to punish users for expressing a point of view (instead of just rewarding the content they wish to see). Reminiscent of Pavlov's dogs, it seems some wish to condition a response in anyone who may engage in what they feel is "wrongthink".

How do flags/downvotes punish anyone?

Not only is this a proven formula for future stagnation in the community, it opens the possibility for corporations, governments, and other potentially nefarious actors to effectively control what is and isn't allowed on the platform.

How does a flag change what is or isn't allowed? Flagging is not censorship.

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Sorry for the late reply, this one snuck past me.

How do flags/downvotes punish anyone?

"Punish" in this context can be thought of as "disincentive" for the sake of semantics. When spammers and plagiarists are flagged, it's used as a way to enforce a common standard. However, "opinion flagging" or otherwise downvoting because the author shared the wrong idea/perspective is a highly divisive approach that will fragment this community indefinitely.

How does a flag change what is or isn't allowed? Flagging is not censorship.

All one needs to do is look at youtube to see users flocking in droves due to demonetization, and that's despite google's dominance of the market. Steemit doesn't have that luxury, and demonetizing users by micromanaging the opinions allowed on the platform will exponentially diminish returns in growth and retention.

Opinion flagging is a problem though. It basically means that even if 20 persons really liked my content and rewarded the post with their upvotes, it only takes one whale to nullify their stakes and remove the reward from the post. That's the equivalent of taking the earnings of a hot dog vendor at the end of the night because you don't eat meat yourself.

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That is what we hope to prevent. Thanks for checking it out, and be sure to drop any suspicious flags in our discord or over on steemit.chat if you see one.