Thoughts on HF 20 "Velocity"- Yes to tokens, but no to mining.

2 months ago

HF20 will come eventually and with it the need for a new way to onboard people into steemit. The standard faucet hasn't been a great solution as several have taken advantage of it. There may be some 40,000 accounts that existed simply to drain 6 steem each from the opening. In order to combat that in the short run wait times have been increased and onboarding people may take as long as two weeks and still costs steem. It's less than ideal.

A great solution

The Steemit team has come up with a plan to create tokens that can be used to create new accounts. They note in the blog in order to reach the heights of Reddit they will have to climb the mountain of new users that would come on board. To bring 100 million people they would currently need hundreds of millions of steem. Considering only two hundred and fifty million steem even exist the challenge is formidable. And so they thought up a token system and would use those tokens specifically as a way to add people to the platform.

We want to add a daily quota of discounted accounts. These accounts can be paid for with a combination of STEEM, bandwidth, and mining. Yes, mining. We believe that the ability to mine an account into creation was a fantastic feature of our hybrid proof of work system that was lost when we removed proof of work. Mining will use Litecoin's scrypt algorithm as it is battle tested. This will only be used for creating accounts through the discount system and not for block production.

The level of discount will be dynamic based on current demand to prevent all of the accounts from being created instantly. Witnesses will vote on the daily quota so that we can scale this system alongside our growth. This system will run in parallel to existing account creation.

That's great, but I have a concern

The approach they envision now to generate and distribute those tokens is through mining. That to me is a great travesty. While I myself mine and enjoy it quite a bit I'm not inclined to believe it is an approach that leads to equality and a healthy distribution of steem on the system. This is especially important on a platform already plagued by a terrible distribution.

My article on @freedom helped me reach this conclusion. If those that mine have the ability to make 6M steem and those that don't know can't mine then it creates an inherently dangerous situation for equality. Maybe some folks aren't concerned, or would share that it's a problem that Cryto has always had, but those people aren't working to grow 3,000 minnow accounts. My concern is for the everyday people of this platform. We need to appeal to Joe the Plumber and not just Linda the Linux admin. If you want to grow and you want to grow fairly then I don't like this aspect of the plan.

When I asked about it one answer was that's it's easy to just go through cli_wallet and mine. For a dev that might be easy, but for the moms and dads of facebook you're trying to bring over you might as well ask them to rewire their house. I have minnows that can't register with a Discord bot after 5 attempts and who couldn't figure out if they had successfully voted for my witness when I was below 50. While a handful of people may be able to figure mining on the platform the result will be a new avenue for distorted wealth creation will arise. Even worse there's the potential that Steemit may pick which groups will be able to use these tokens or make them non-transferable so that only those who mine may benefit perpetually excluding those that aren't born or trained to the technocracy.

An alternative: Stake weighted voting a la Witness Voting.

Stake weighted voting is one of the greatest ideas that's come along in governance. It's far better to allow the community to decide where the tokens should go than to allow the limited few with mining competence to bear all the benefit. The chain and the witnesses can tweak how many new tokens need to be created to have a healthy supply, and a new group of token generators can be voted on to decide who will receive the tokens. I imagine a system where some 1000 or even more people could be voted in and earning a stake weighted proportion of fungible new account tokens.

Instead of having these in the hands of just a few miners and developers these tokens could be in the accounts of thousands of users who can then grant access and use their network to invite new users. This could be a decentralized system for account creation. Otherwise you're allowing a handful of web developers to have access to account creation which by your own math you value in the hundreds of millions. How is that in the best interest of the Minnows in the Pond?

We expect the majority of accounts to be created by Steemit and our partners cheaply using stake. The account creation process will appear similar to what it is today with a fee and proof of work field. To create an account via stake, all the creator needs to do is not include a fee or a proof of work. If the creating account does not have enough stake they will need to include an adequate proof of work or STEEM fee to cover the difference. We will provide APIs and tools to calculate how much of a fee is necessary. To create an account without a creator, no creator will be specified in the operation and will include a proof of work adequate to cover the entire fee. If the dynamic cost is too high, regular account creation will be an option. To end users, this will appear identical to what it is today and only affects developers wishing to sign up new users.

Can we please explore other methods of token creation than mining?

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I'm sorry, I have no much time at this moment to read all of this and tons of comments but I think you are misinterpreting the idea.

"I'm not inclined to believe it is an approach that leads to equality and a healthy distribution of steem on the system."

It has nothing to do with distribution of STEEM. That mining is for sole purpose of account creation, nothing more.
Ability to mine your own account through mining (as I did with mine) is an awesome feature that's currently missing because there's no longer PoW on Steem.
Mining would be back but only to be able to create an account, not to get rewards in STEEM.

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Right, but new accounts are worth something. So, those that can mine can make new accounts and those that can't wont' have access. Eventually you're putting 100 Million new account creation tokens in the hands of miners and not in the hands of the general public. That's how steem will get involved. You'll either pay for the new account or you'll pay for the mining. One group will get rich a la Freedom, and the other group will get left in the dust.

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Who said those accounts were going to get something?

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Mining is not the only way to create an account. You can pay with STEEM or, if you have enough Steem Power, your stake can create an account without losing anything yourself. Adding mining is not about funneling account creation through a single method, but opening it up through multiple methods.

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How does that favor non-texhsavy new users? You are stating the obvious that we already know and missing a relevant point here which is, we need to ensure an ease of account creation for users. Steemit must be user friendly, otherwise ... Its weird how the devs are just not getting the general point.

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sighs .. I know nothing about mining
that's sad news
but maybe they'd post tutorials?
oh who am I kidding we don't have time to do that either
more sighs and deeper ..
am one of those "no tech- genius" here

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Yeah even with the right tutorials I'm not sure I'd make it there. And I've been here a year and dont' entirely suck at these things... i don't know how Mary the Facebook Mom is gonna figure it out.

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I agree with @gtg said... nothing more to say... it was very clear with my same comment....

Alright, from what I understand of what's planned, there's some misconceptions here.

Where is anyone talking about a token for account creation? I haven't heard that anywhere.

From what I understand regarding mining and accounts is that you'll be able to set an account name in your steemd node, specify a public/private key pair for it, and then once you find a block, that account is created. This is how it was when Steem first launched and I assume it would be how this new system would work.

a big issue with users new to steemit is the huge learning curve. Even to someone who is familiar with crypto its a tough learning curve.

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I agree, I came in knowing nothing about crypto and I still am learning new things every day a month later

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Same here

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I agree and I studied math...! What about invitations? Sort of like an MLM strategy, you invite new users and if they add quality content then you get a piece of the pie for the first say 3 posts?

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I also agree

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Yeah but it will one day be SUPER user friendly, like easier than Instagram easy...

It already IS the MOST easy crypto currency to use EVER! NO bitcoin or ethereum wallet can let u just send and recieve Money to a username like this! No complicated crazy long address to send to! just a imple usernme! were the only blocclchainaltcpins with that! were more advanced and more efficient than bitcoon!

once we have Bitcoinnd ethereum in our Internal SBD/Steem market the game will be over and steemit will sart eating the llunh of poloniex and bittrex and we will have a amazing advantage!

we will attract alls orts of users who want a simple easy to use wallet wth Al their coins! imagine being able to keep ur bitcoinss ethereum ec20 and any tokens here in your steemit wallet! we will even have EOS and openledger.io (aka bitshares) integration, its gonna be so easyto use crypto currency soon all with steemit

we are ALL SO lucky to get to use steemit! I have beentelling peopel for a while now that eventualy youll be able to have Bitcoins and ethereum in your steemit wallet and u wont nee poloniex anymore or bittrex or evencoinbase we wil also have ourown fiat gateway! u will ahve nt oly steem ATMs in every big city bt a Steemit Debit card that even takes out a lil bit of money for taxes etc, it will be perfect! it will be so streamlineed

STREAMit will be ore like it!

STREAMLINED steemit is coming! Imagine HF30!

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Perhaps you give the Steemit community an estimation when all these great things will be completed

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hahaha yes I wish i could! But I have been talking about that for a while! I have been asking for more coins in our interal market but I am just HOPING that they add this feature in the new updates! i canttell u whenit will happen but Im hoping its soon!
I need a personal trainer to teach me web development and i need a personl yeller to yelll at me to make more steemit posts and work harder eveyday!

Im going to try and wake up tomorrow and start a very dense Steemit post all about a Steemit Video advertisement i will outline and storybaord and then ill mke it and then ill release it using teh steem i make from rewards on the outline, to pay for its youube advertissing money, iw ill pay to ave the video seen! and it will drive more sersto steemit thus helping us all and i will try to cut out a little paycheck for yself to simply make ads for steemit like jerrybanfield does the more the better!

if a few thousands of us just marketed for steemit.com every day all day for a few months, g etting people jining the steem blockchain, we would get 10 mllion users by the end of the year! we all need to work super hatd everyday and just FLOOD the internet with steemit ads! and steemit social media posts! wmust show off how much we make off our posts and comments! we can get MASSIVE traffic and MASSIVE userbaseon steemit!

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Loving the enthusiasm, upvoted and followed! I've made some business cards to put on counters, hand out to people, put under wipers, put on the grocery store billboards, etc: https://steemit.com/steemit/@libertyteeth/business-cards-for-steemit-to-increase-participation

I agree with you -- marketing is the way! (And my history is as a developer, who'd a thunk. :) )

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The devs are trying to solve a problem while not taking into consideration the difficulty new users will face during account creation. Its already a difficult annoying process for the new users . Now they are introducing mining. While I appreciate their effort; they seem to think everyone is as tech savy as they are. No!

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I myself suggested some features for steemit developers to include in the coming updates, but my article did not got much attention and i am afraid that the developers will not found that @aggroed

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Hmmm nope!

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this is a very big issue, the learning curve. I am a minnow and not familiar with crypto, and boy is it confusing

tfw this sounds strikingly familiar to my post last week

feelsSad.gif

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ummm. Not too much. You have a good idea with the ability to basically upvote a new account into existence. That's sorta neat. Anyway, other than talking about new accounts these approaches seem different to me.

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you caught me.. i was in a rush when I read yours =P

agreed on new account approaches, regardless

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Upvoted for the simple juxtaposition of "agreed" and "aggroed" (+1 letter, and change one letter). And, why not, followed! :)

To be honest I can't get my head around how everything works on steemit but why steemit has to grow fast? It already created good reputation, bringing too many people will water it down, at least fast influx. I'm here for a month, and when I joined it was good platform, what I noticed is that more people get in less quality content and more spammers you can find. All big social networks didn't become big overnight, and nowadays their content is so dispersed that people give up using them and try to find new social platform.

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Yeah, imagine how it feels for someone who's been here for only two months. In such a short time, steemit has been inundated by people who seem to think this is just another social media platform, and that we want spam posts in our feeds that would be totally acceptable on twitter or facebook.

People are coming in with money, and get the mentality that they shouldn't need to try very hard, or they should upvote themselves, because the platform/community owes them an ROI.

And there are people abusing the power they get from bots like @minnowbooster by getting a ton of delegated power, and commenting empty bs, upvoting themselves, but not the posts they're commenting on.

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Hey, thanks for the @minnowbooster tip! I'll go and check it out right now! :D

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I find it to be a very ridiculous idea. One that can easily be taken advantage of by greedy people who like to upvote their own one sentence comments.

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I was trying to be funny. :D

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😂

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Minnow booster rocks. I leased 700 SP to increase my voting power and don't upvote my own comments. I even just upvoted one of your comments for the lulz.

Full disclaimer: I am a mod at minnowbooster discord and have about 200 Steem invested in the project

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That's great that you're using it ethically, but it certainly has the potential for abuse by unscrupulous people, though some would argue that buying power then using it all on one's self isn't against the rules. It may not be, but neither is taking the entire bowl of dinner mints on your way out of the restaurant, or claiming an entire pile of magazines labeled 'free'. But if you wouldn't do one, why is it ok to do another? It's not "against the rules", it's just downright rude, and I don't feel like steemit was created for lazy, greedy people...

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@thatsweeneyguy I bet I know who you are talking about that has come in with money....

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No one person in particular. It's just a mentality I've seen a few times...

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We're on roughly the same track as the other guys. Just is.

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@dijana969 @thatsweeneyguy I pretty much agree with your sentiments. The quality has taken a drastic nose dive. These voting pool bots certainly aren't helping with promoting good content. I can comment, after research that one of them is definitely using it as a scheme to siphon off Steem to Bittrex.

Great post

I definitely want to see more details on the token system - a solution to quick but effective on-boarding is critical...

I remember reading that one of the reasons, if not the main reason, for @steemit having a such huge wallet balance was to have enough Steem to create accounts far into future. Now that they're scrapping this plan and introducing a totally new coin for just this function, will there be a burning of some % of the vast tokens that were (almost insta)mined for just this purpose? @ned care to chime in?

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And how hastily was the whole system coded up if the creators couldn't see this as becoming a problem? Or was it ever supposed to run this long or gain this much adoption? @dan being the genius couldn't see this flaw?

Any opinions?

Bringing in new users who are completely new to crypto will be EXTREMELY difficult with such conditions. I'm a little worried.. hopefully they do a more noobie friendly update.

Thank you for your explanation such that an ordinary minnow is able to understand you.

Like you rightly pointed out, minning will worsen the cry of minnows and people who may not have the technicalities to mine the tokens.

If you consider that many ordinary people are in steemit and not other platform, it will tell you that steemit is able to achieve this because it involves what everyone can do which is writing.

Bringing mining into any aspect of steemit will be counterproductive.

I would be ok with mining, but not if scrypt is the PoW - it would have to be something with no ASICs. Cryptonight or something else where not even GPUs have a significant edge. Aloo (f it's even possible) pooling would have to be disallowed. And the tokens would have to be only good for creating am account and non-transferrable. Basically, CPU mineable without any way that it could benefit botnets. That being said, for acquisition of a stake in a DAC like this one, I don't think that $5 is a substantial minimum barrier, especially of there was a category/app/something that the accountless folk who can't afford $5 could use to petition for a sponsor. Given that we are faced with the delicate question of how to increase adoption by two orders of magnitide without a comlarable reduction in quality of content (like reddit suffered when Digg imploded) we must proceed with caution.

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Please help me to understand your aversion to GPU mining. I don't know much about mining, but what difference does it make if it's CPUs or GPUs doing the work? Are you just short of GPUs and have a bunch of bad@$$ CPUs - so you don't want people with GPUs to be able to outperform you? :D
Honestly, I don't think I even know enough about it to even formulate an intelligent question here, but what can you explain?

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If we're talking about a PoW as a mechanism for registration of new accounts, a GPU friendly PoW algo sets a high barrier to entry for being able to mine, which is not the goal here.

The Steemit team has come up with a plan to create tokens that can be used to create new accounts. They note in the blog in order to reach the heights of Reddit they will have to climb the mountain of new users that would come on board. To bring 100 million people they would currently need hundreds of millions of steem. Considering only two hundred and fifty million steem even exist the challenge is formidable. And so they thought up a token system and would use those tokens specifically as a way to add people to the platform.

This is a fantastic idea! Much better than a closed distribution in the hands of a few miners. We need a more progressive way to encourage growth. Here's to a HF20 that really levels the playing field for all and encourages more exponential growth of the Steemit platform!

Very good article. I completely agree with you and I like your proposed idea of making account creation decentralized. One thing is for sure: The process has to be as non-technical as possible so the average Joe can just sign up and get going. To get involved with the more technical aspects should be up to the user. If it is forced upon everyone it will just hinder growth.

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Very true. Less technical equals more simple equals a better system for all. still very wary Days though.

This sounds vaguely familiar :)
"We need to appeal to Joe the Plumber and not just Linda the Linux admin."

Great minds. If you don't know what I'm talking about, even BETTER, and I'll show you sometime! :D

As for the actual post, good looking out man. I'm concerned without as much understanding as you, just based on the premise that these don't smell like root cause solutions, they smell like treating symptoms with hastily constructed bandaids. As I see so much of happening with the steem tech since I discovered it and started paying attention. All my software career spidey senses are tingling here daily.

It's not just the learning curve it's the wait to get your account details. I joined 6 weeks ago but have been around crypto for years. I have never been interested in blogging etc before but thought I would give it a go. When it took a week to get my account set up with no real communication regarding why it was taking so long, I nearly gave up. I'm sure people outside of crypto would have. This will add to people who not only think badly of steemit but of crypto in general. This onboardibg process NEEDS to be streamlined and made a lot faster.

Thanks for not naming me ,but I don't mind if people know I struggle w/ computers and technology. ;-)
I really wish I understood this stuff.
I kinda feel like my opinions will have no value.
But that has hardly ever stopped me before!
I found steemit.com thru youtube videos.get payed to post ,flagging for fun(not a fan of),and a few others.
I was having problems w/ fakebook,and joined,took 3 days.and my account was like $3.50 or so to start ,all free no out of pocket.
I was under the impression that the system was funded through some kind of consensus mining .
I have learned a little(very small little)but trying.
I have read and heard that witness is not mining. what is the difference, do not both get payed for processing blocks?
And like @gigafart commented at we need to get it into grandmas hands.and billions of people.
Be nice to crowd fund the world and change it!
I am trying to spread the word about steemit,and I have heard some of the to complicated ,didn't understand it.
I know I don't.
I want to change the world steemit is not big enough yet! and people are talking about growing pains...more witness 's ? idk? how do we get the processing power to compete w/ Fakebook,YouTube ,ect.?
IDK...how can I help!!??
always more Q.'s than A.'s ..
Thank You for all you do! wish I could make it to Boston! would love to talk to you!
Namaste!

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hey man i was expecting you to atleast make this all rhyme!
It would save us all time!, Give us the respect dont waste a no lemons or limes

cuz when life gives you numbers you mke cryotpgraphy!

now get back to making all that crypto curreny!

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Whats a crypto currecy? is it like a crypt tax? or death $?
;-)
Pardon me, I don't understand McAfee,or even dos, toss me in with the dross.
better at meme life
follow me and the best at PALnet discord,MSP!
namaste

Why do we need to be giving away 6 steem per new account to begin with? Start people off at zero and let them choose to deposit more steem into their accounts or accumulate it through posting.

That seems like the best answer unless I'm missing something.

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In order to vote on anything, you need to have some Steem Power. If you start with zero, you cannot vote and thus cannot earn anything from curating. You must have at least a little bit of Steem Power in order to get started.

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Didn't delegation fix this? When you sign up, don't you get delegated SP now instead of actual SP that you can then just immediately cash out? It's been a while, but I think that's how it worked with my account.

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Yeah that's what I thought, my account created through Steemit just received delegation. Though when I created one through anonsteem the other day it did come with 6 steem (though I'd paid 10)

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I think you would still need to create the steem if a 100 million new users joined because there's only 250 million in existence.

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Exactly! You cannot delegate what does not exist.

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At least for now if you don't have enough steem power you can't even post transactions to the block. That was a safety thing to keep from getting slammed by hackers with a trillion accounts or something that like.

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Ah ya, that does complicate things.

I agree that mining is not a good option.
For those who have computer know how and equipment, the same ones who can easily game the system, will have no problem making accounts.

Those not computer savvy would find it impossible to use this method.

So, it is creating a high barrier where one isn't needed, as well as a low barrier where thoughts of a solid fence should be.

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Yep. That about sums it up.

First thing I think about when I hear of another coin that needs to be mined is a scamcoin attached to the steemit brand with the creators wanting to make a quick buck.

I don't know, I'm not an expert but what I hear you saying or the quoted blog is saying, Steem needs to create more money to make the site more attractive and we'll create new non-human(?) accounts through mining??

If the great social networking platforms have millions of users and only a very small percentage of them get 'paid' while Steemit only has a few thousands and people here are paid ridiculous amounts... why is it still not growing rapidly?? What is steem doing wrong?

  1. Usability, we can't use it to communicate to our families and friends. It's not the go-to place for real news (except for crypto and maybe tech).

  2. Marketing and creating a 'need' for this new platform. Again the question, why should people move to steem? Surely getting paid is reason enough? But why is it not happening... And yet you have loads of sites that don't pay users but users are addicted to them.

C'mon think tanks, think.

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Not quite... Mining is proposed to make new account tokens that could be spent to make any new account. This isn't really about humans/bots.

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thanks for explaining :)

Wish I could understand this, but I am new to this. In time I may be able to wrap my head around it. As with all things, a new user will find everything complicated until they are familiar with it. If a new user is expected to understand things on an in-depth level from the get-go, what is being created is a technical community, and not a general one a la FaceBook. If you want to exclude the common person, just demand a lot of know how just to sign up. People will stay in droves.

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its ok if u REALLLY wanna learn aboutit, just start looking up evvery article that is tagged #hf20 and u will start to getteh idea in an orgaic way

just read what people TALk aboyt u will ssee whats important and whats not! ometimes beter than eve reading the official reports etc

Just go check out what people are saying about steemit on the steemspeak discord chat and ask people like @aggroed to explain this in laymans terms because thats what theyre here for!

Explaining stuff n laymans terms can get a child super interestedin this stuf and he or she coule end up becoming a steemit developer one day! u nver know! its important to dissimeniatethis information to as many ppeople as possible! u have the rght attitude u can always help by using some brain powerto work out some solutions or go find some entertaining GIFs if all else fails!

This is from 8 months ago... I know this has been changed...But right now, do we have any of our rewardsgo to witnesses??

And is THS at all still relevant aboit allowing people with just 128MB of RAM to mine StEEM? and using RAM minig instead of GPU or ASIc mining?!?!?!??!?!

Andthese are all 8 months old but do witness still get 10 percent of inflation??

here is wher this is all from! weird to see someone blogging abot steemit outsde of steemit!
https://steemit.com/steemit-hardfork/@steemitguide/steem-hardfork-0-16-0-informative-post-keeping-up-with-steemit-s-development-on-github

I am new to Steemit and I think it was for me a different platform from all other social media pages. I think Steemit is very attractive to many people because they come to earn. Tokens? I do not think will be so attractive as just getting the Steem. I would appreciate more having official videos about the site to understand what to do and where everything is. By the way, Steemit is a great idea. Congratulations to all of you are doing the site to work and the minds behind this site. And for sure, I am going to try to bring all my friends here.

This is a bit out of my depth but I just wanted to say that "Linda the Linux Admin" gave me a good laugh.

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But you know who she is right?

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Oh, is that not just a riff on Joe the Plumber?

If I'm understanding it correctly this seems to allow for the possibility of brute force spam account production?

OK speaking greek to me, I am here for content creators, I enjoy the community but have no clue on the mining, bitcoin, steem and have not explored all this place has to offer, so how will this impact the other users like me?

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See. You're my dude. How are you going to be able to participate to mine when you have no clue. Maybe you spend 3 months educating yourself on the subject, but I don't think we should have that as a requirement to have a shot at equal rewards here.

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I thought mining was now beyond the scope of everyday people's computers? Don't you need special mining hardware for that now-a-days? The inequality that creates concerns me too.

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yes you do. Which is another reason why mining is unfair. Ok, so not only do you have to be born wealthy enough to have an education good enough to have a background strong enough to understand this shit, but you also have to have enough wealth to be able to dedicate thousands to mining equipment, and even then you're getting smashed by those who dedicate millions and billions. It's an arms race and an expensive one. And the tokens go to the rich.

Why not just vote on who shoudl get them like we do witnesses and let the people contributing the most to the growth of this place take the tokens.

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I went back and re-read the last section of this post to go along with your reply. So you're thinking a new group of 1000 or so voted "onboarding witnesses" would be given the mined tokens and then responsible for distributing them to new accounts as they join?

Would that be a manual process, for example if I was one of them, when a new account hits the pending que, I would have to review it, approve it, then assign the tokens?

I like the way you think, long term equality and stability to protect US ALL here.

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Well this doesn't affect the normal user at all. Other than making it easier/faster for your friends to join the platform. It only offers extras to those that take the time to learn about mining and has the equipment to do so.

I just don’t know about adding another thing such as a “token” just making things even more complicated. This kind of thing will also have to have some kind of value? I assume mining at first would be easy and over time the required amount of time to mine that token would increase or decrease depending on Steem value.

Consider me crazy but why can’t they just starta new accounts in debt? Their votes would hold 0 value. Their true price of admission is giving back to the community in the form of content. After all that is what Steemit is all about. Your content is what is adding value to Steemit overall. Over time from being active there upvote would increase from being worthless and void to hold some value.

If they cant start at a negative balance then give them a token that they have to payback from creating content. Steemit is about engagement and creating content. We have moved beyond mining I don't see a need to bring it back.

Definitely agree with the authors conclusion about not wanting to put all the power into the hands of those who can mine

Excellent post regarding the pros and cons of HF20. I completely agree with your argument of straying away from the mining concept to create accounts since not everyone knows how to mine. One solution is through the account creation process, there could be a link to set up a mining account, with step by step instructions for how to do it. Or there could be "witness" miners where they are mining the tokens then distributing them out to new users then they get rewarded. There still needs to be some more thought to it but I agree it's need to be an easy process and one that's manageable to millions of users going forward.

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Yep tradeable tokens dolled out by the system according to your stake weighted vote sounds like the best system to me. IDK anything but mining for them.

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Nice, "Nice Post," comment. Thank you so much for pointing that out to everyone here, otherwise we might have missed the fact that this post was so nicely made. Until I read your post, informing me that this was a "nice post," that point of information had completely escaped my attention. I will make a note of it.

If there were something even more interesting for you to add to the conversation, would you also please put it into the comments - because we're all waiting, holding our breath, until you post your next thoughts on the matter. Until we hear from you again, please accept my most heartfelt thanks for the great contributions you have made here. :-)

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perhaps a little harsh, but it got an upvote :P

This is an amazing plan ...
good work...
I @alanmirza support it

**good luck friends ... **

I got a bellyRub and this post has received a 7.14 % upvote from @bellyrub thanks to: @zeartul.

up vote me and follow me @jaibaru. thank you

On point and I completely agree. Something has to be done to allow for the mass amount of users steemit expects and wants.. needs really. A semi-retired question. How much steem is added to the reward pool any given 24 hours? Is there an easy way to tell? As always thanks for all you do aggroed, keep up the good work sir!!

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Last time I did the math it was about 50k a day. Well, that's steem. Of course how much that's worth fluctuates.

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Good to know, thanks! And most of that isn't newly created steem or is it? Does the amount of steem increase by 1mil every 20 days?

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that's new steem because of inflation, which is set to be $25M all year this year.

I am literally brand new here and you may choose to discount my input altogether because I've only been here for a week and have no big number by my name.
But, all this talk of getting more people and growing the platform, and complaining about the cost of new accounts or the lower quality of posts being submitted is beside the point because;
The Platform is clunky.
Seeing comments and replies are ridiculously complicated multi click processes.
There isn't even a way to SEE @ mentions at all.
And what YOU may think is not content worthy of your high and mighty ideals is EXACTLY the content that Bob the Builder and Grandma and Facebook Mum and Dad are looking for, food, recipes their kid's selfies.
You want a popular, profitable, Social Media Platform?
Make it work like one....
Right now it's a Media Platform, that 'Kind Of Works' and,
A Social Platform that really doesn't allow Fast Easy Fun user interaction which are the three things a Social Media needs above all else.
Do that and your Vaulted (dumb, non miner, tech challenged) Everyday Users that you all reference, will come AND bring all their Friends with them at NO COST to you or the platform.
I should have made this a Blog Post, but I have no followers and am still learning how to get around here.
~ Bryan @overthewait Thank you for your time.

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Yeah, well we sent a kid to Steemfest through a competition because he promised to help make the user interface better and easier. I agree. There's more that could be done.

Right now my focus is on helping 3000 new people get onboarded and successful, but maybe in a month or so I'll move to tweaking design and seeing if I can get the devs to change things based on these requests.

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I was not expecting a reply from anyone, so thank you firstly. Also I'm not attacking the platform, just trying to point out what I feel would make it better or reduce the learning curve. Steemit is trying to be something, maybe it's just not sure what right now.
It's a great enthusiast level media platform but it's not ready for Grandma and Facebook Mum and Dad users. Why market it to them until it can do what they want? That just leaves us (the exisiting active users) frustrated, and them (social media users who want out of the data-harvesting mega applications and to feel empowered by a fair go and a few bucks for their effort) confused, excluded and they then tell that to anyone who will listen.
I'm personally among those minnows try to get started, although I'm not in the MSP yet, working on it though.

I read through your whole article as I am careful to only upvote articles that I have read. Have to admit that a lot of it went over my head - but the gist of what I got out of it shows that you have the newbies to crypto in consideration and I really appreciate that.

great article,very informative

If we're talking 100 million users, a lot more needs to be changed than just what you speak of above to make any difference whatsoever.

Long story short, as you can see in the comments below, nobody actually gets it fully. What other social media site, blog site or anything similar is so confusing to the majority of users that they simply don't get it?

Everything somehow needs to be streamlined and laid out clearly. With reddit, you just throw an email and user name and you're in. Facebook, the same. Granted, an economy isn't involved, but that's not an excuse that's going to work for the mothers and fathers of Facebook.

I've been trying to get my dad involved with his photography here but explaining the website just confused and bored him, and I think that sentiment spreads across most people, the only incentive is the idea of an instant, guaranteed livable income which just isn't true.

Of course, attracting people and having them more willing to get involved would be helped by an attractive interface, too. Take a look at the Chinese Steemit, YoYow; it's beautiful, slick and smooth.

Is there nothing in the works to make steemit more accessible to the average John Doe?

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Yeah, that's why simple messaging like, "Write, Post, Earn" can help us. Can you explain how your computer works? You know how the silicon chip resistors are able to process data? Probably not, but you don't effin' care because all you wanna do is send some and receive nuddies. (I don't actually know for a fact you send and receive nuddies... it's just for illustrating a point).

Same thing here. I think it's ok if parts of this are over the head of the general public so long as what they want to get out of it is simple.

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True, but being a person on steemit.chat often, I hear a constant barrage of people who dont know this and that. It doesn't help that so much of the site doesn't work fully. Notifications don't work, converting steem disappears for anywhere up to 6 days for some individuals, you have to understand that steemd exists to find out these transactions, it's the difference between intuitive and unintuitive, and as it stands, the site is rather unintuitive, and I don't think it would take much to fix that.

This is good info... I must go and think this too :)

wow when you realize that you arentthe most qualified person to do all of this stuf, but you also realize that theres plenty of people like @aggroed thinking about solutions for this onboarding problem, it makes me happy, realizing that we just haveto support these steemit minions and they will slve all our problems!

Hey are you saying someone organized 40,000 accounts justto drain the free steem? cant we bring legal action to sue this person if they end up being in the US? Id love to help bring up Fraud lawsuit upon someone who is hurting steem like that! I see it as fraud! I dont think thats what you meant by 40,000 accounts just to drain steempower, i think u meant alot of peopel just jined for the fre steem

anyway yeah its very confusing when you say we are going to mine using litecoin scriptto make coins just for account creatiion?

I wish theer was a simple explanation for how THAT works and how we can explain away the confusion of WHERE new steem comees from! like how witnesses createthe steem, and how itgets distributed to the rward pool, like where oes it coem from before ggoin to reward pool, and also ...is it true in saing we DONT mine steem the way lets say..Bitcoin is mined???we have some sort of inflationary system where every yearthe amountof steem just dubles? right?

but we can ALSO mine it? Like it will decrease value of steem to add more steem this way...but it will alow us to get "free" steem to create account without directly draining reward pool?

is this how it works?? i assume I am wrong here, or confused, or did i get it right? isthis the difference between proof of stake an proof of work

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Lots of questions... um, new steem comes from inflation. So, right now the inflation is set at 10% and tehre are 250M Steem so you make 25M new steem this year. That gets distributed by the reward pool and upvoting.

This chain had mining, got rid of it, and is considering bringing back mining in a limited capacity to very specifically mine for new user tokens. I'm trying to prevent that from happening because the minnows I shepherd and the target audience that we need to come on board can't do it.

In other systems mining is used to construct the chain. We don't do that. We have witnesses that assemble it.

They just want new users or someone to pay for new accounts, so just charge for new accounts. Mining is just a way of paying for accounts with electricity so just make multiple ways to pay for a new account including possibly some traditional ways.

Lots of valid point you have brought up. Thanks for sharing.

i agree and you have a good solution.. new users even don't know how to work on steemit. "how to" tab should be seen by every new user.

a big issue with users new to steemit is the huge learning curve. Even to someone who is familiar with crypto its a tough learning curve.

nice post!

Thanks for all the updated info you provide to us Minnows,, it really helps us to understand Steemit a little bit better everyday. Btw I voted for as a Witness too. Cheers 👍

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Rock on! Thanks for your support!

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Cheers mate, Voted you as a Witness yesterday too 👍

yes not all of us are into computers or have any knowledge of mining or blogging -- surely the art and music i create and my original thoughts make me a worthy person to have here --anyway i like your solution and am glad to hear we will tackle becoming huge and gaining millions of new users

hey do you know when Segwit will came into effect from ?

That is a great solution that you proposed. I am one of those who mentioned who have very low competency when it comes to computer skills and programming. When I first started I could not even upload an image here.
Please please do explore other methods of token creation other than mining.

good ideas and thoughts about this new reality facing us. Appealing to Joe the Plumber and not just Linda the Linux admin is what is needed in a situation like this so that fairness reigns!

Nice post. How were users draining 6 steem? I thought new accounts were just given a SP loan?

not yet, i think so

Thanks for keeping us laymen in the loop, even thou a lot is over my head. I can see were the creators of steemit are trying to keep things fare and fun for all. I appreciate all their efforts.

steemit keep the good way, bitcoin crash but steem could really improved

Steemit is very easy to learn lot of videos on youtube , yes if not sure about crypto its bit hard but its possible

I agree

yes we need to explore other methods too.

whatever to help increase SP

Amazing Post. Upvoted!

Thank you so much for the updates ! Thank you so much for your effort !!

Upvoted !

I am just thinking out loud here.

What about ,if Witness's were required to mine account creation coins. THEN the witness's donate those coins to a pool for people to use to create accounts. Then when that person signs up an automatic vote goes to that witness?

Again just thinking here, not actually saying that's what I want.. I am really studying thinking about your idea here.

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witnesses already get paid. This is double dipping to me. Might as well find another group of people, who don't even need servers, who play a role in onboarding new users.

apart from that, steemit at the moment is quite a messy place in terms of cinding a good stuff, or stuff that you might be interested. there are gems, of course, but frequantly buried under tonns of untelated stuff. teams needs to find aome sort of solution. plus increase userfriendliness- i mean, look, in order to st tour profile picture you have to give link, instead of uploading. come on :D

I would suggest token creation through cumulative invitations from people who have a certain reputation and above. The higher the reputation for an account the more invitations they can send out. This will also make the platform more "exclusive" — aka not everyone can join and hence make it even more desirable.

We do not need mass adaptation right now. We are not reddit or facebook. We something entirely different. We need quality first before we do anything else.

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Including rep in the calculation may make sense.

The tone of not accepting people because they may not be quality I think is bad for the platform. Accept everyone and make them better. This place does that to people.

I'm all for equality. But I cannot be too sure how well the two scenarios would play out, but your thoughts make perfect sense.

hello friends please upvote this comment and follow me I will follow you back :)

I completely agree. In particular, the part about people underestimating the technical hurdles that parts of this process entail. Anything at all that is more complicated than Facebook in the new user account process has the potential to hinder Steemits potential. We want as close to idiot-proof as possible. Heck, it would great if we could boil this down to something like a QR code scan.

Heck, I'm been in IT for 20 years and I still can't even figure out a way to delegate SP that doesn't give my key to an outside-Steemit API.

Then again, maybe I'm part of the problem.

Good informative article..

Congratulations @aggroed!
Your post was mentioned in my hit parade in the following categories:

  • Comments - Ranked 10 with 109 comments
  • Pending payout - Ranked 2 with $ 400,36

I have a proposition:

By default an account worth nothing and there is no limitation about creating one (such as time to wait). After having created his account, a user can mine, post, or share his bandwidth to earn Steem ans Steem power.

So their is no restriction, everyone can create his account instantaneously.

Now if someone has already mined, or have some cryptocurrency. he could have a discount or bonus for having invested.

I'm sort of torn because I'm just getting into mining so the idea is intriguing to me. But on the other hand, this site needs a lot of good content creators and not just people who can mine. That being said, something needs fixed and hopefully things work out for the better health of this site.

Cheers,

Sean

This is all to speed up the account creation process? If it needs extra processing power that should be off loaded to the witnesses. If they need more witnesses just allow more witnesses.

This is a very nice article.. I'm still new here but I'm loving steemit @jemimah

First, I'm sorry for the ramble, but yall on one of my favorite subject here.

This is a very insightful post. And I agree. The learning curve on Steemit is hard enough as it is. I, myself, have dealt with the learning curve by spending many hours on the site and many hours on Google and just researching, reading posts about Steemit-related topics, commenting, replying, upvoting, resteeming, asking questions, answering questions, just engaging. I have also studied Markdown and ways to format in GitHub, which is not easy for the average person. I have an HTML background so it comes pretty easy to me, but to others, I can see where it would be a problem.

As far as mining, I would be willing to buckle down and learn whatever it is to learn so that I could do that and/or be a witness. But, most people are not inclined to do that and would not be able to if they were inclined, simply because they are not technologically inclined.

It is important that the capitalist culture on the site is relaxed, or else Steemit will not last, at least as it is intended to with the monetization concept. People will not stay and the masses are what keeps the ball rolling and not only the elite few by themselves. If I go from 0 to 200,000 SP on this site, it was because of the upvotes of the thousands of small fish in this sea. If not for them, I would not have gotten to 200,000 SP and if they leave, then they take their combined voting and curation power with them.

This reminds me of that scene in The Ten Commandments when Charleston Heston's character, Moses, told Pharaoh (when Ramses wanted to make the slaves work 7 days a week with very little food and water), but he told Pharaoh that the slaves need at least one day off and enough food and water everyday because weak slaves make few bricks and the dead make none to build the city. Well, it's the same concept here. Let the little fish have some sustenance and some success so that the city (Steemit) can be built, and the wealth of the big fish can be sustained by letting small and medium fish have some of it. It is not right for a few people to continue day after day pocketing all the Steem on the site while others have little to nothing, particularly those who are genuinely interested in the concept of Steemit and who consistently put out quality content.

I agree with allowing the balance of power with these tokens to be in the hands of a few thousand smaller fish in the community, but I do also believe that this should be closely monitored to prevent exploitation.

Just my 2 cents...

the ICO`s is a great option

blind capture

@aggroed, the really important point for Steemit's future-- which you're indirectly raising by saying "no to mining"-- is that hoping to bring the platform closer to mass adoption (aka "an actual and viable alternative to Facebook") is not served by throwing "techy" solutions at the problems.

For every new user we onboard, we get one step closer to someone who just wants "plug and play" and they don't give a rat's rear end how "elegant" or "clever" the underlying tech is. They just want to turn the thing on and post as easily as they can on Facebook.

Has anybody considered the possibility of making account creation "self funding?" That would be something like 10% of Steem earned on the first 200 steem any account earns goes back into the system as account creation recovery?

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Sounds like a tax. I think mining is too complicated for joe public. i think voting on who gets tokens is possible. Lots of ways to do this. I just don't think mining will lead to a positive result.

What we have here is a, "First-World Problem." It's a whole lot like a Third-World Problem - except you're not starving. So, while everyone frets over the current issue, lets not forget that these types of problems are very good types of problems to have, as opposed to other types of problems...

While the majority of this conversation in above my pay-grade, I did see one very important statement in the OP:

"...This could be a decentralized system for account creation. Otherwise you're allowing a handful of web developers to have access to account creation..."

The issue seems to be, how to balance the power that comes with the ability to create new accounts with the power to regulate new account creation, thereby maintaining the integrity of the SteemIt platform and preventing unintended consequences and loopholes that might allow that power to be abused and used in unscrupulous ways. And, that is a mouthfull.

Take that mouthfull, and imagine what a nightmare it is for code-writers to impliment rules, in computer code, which carry that out successfully. (I believe this is why we have hard-forks? The underlying blockchain code/rules are being "tweaked" to best carry out these policies?)

Now, just take a step back from all of what I just said, and lets' look at the bigger picture. What we have here is a group of private individuals who are engaged in nothing less than the creation of our own form of money, currency, and market for exchanges of value. This is truly an exciting thing, because the current "masters of the universe," the central/globalist banksters are probably $#!tting in their pants right now, trying to figure out ways to stop us.

Here, I want to encourage everyone who understands these issues, and is diligently working on addressing these issues to be greatly encouraged in their work. It is no small task. In a real way, these are the people who could be rememberd as the true "freedom fighters," on the side of freedom and humanity, who are working so hard to free the planet from debt-slavery.

As a minnow myself, I recognize the importance of what is taking place here. This is why I would recommend to every minnow and SteemIt user out there, buy Steem, buy cryptos, invest in this freedom movement now - before it gets crushed by external influences and big money. Every citizen of the world needs to put some "skin in the game," perk up, pay attention, and get involved here.

So after reading this and all the comments, having a momentary "blue screen" in my head, then recovering. I don't understand why the initial "Steem" bonus, or Steem Power given with the account creation can't just go away on its own - without needing any of the other side-effects? Wouldn't that stop the next 40K siphon account from being create? No free $ on sign-up. Am I missing something?

Hell I just PAID 6 STEEM to set up my son's account, I had issues with the automated email verification process on his, so I did it the pay-in way to make sure I didn't lose the account name we wanted.

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Bonus is called delegation and that has issues. Paying 6 steem has issues.

The main issue is that they want to bring on 100+ million users. They have something like 90 million steem in their account. So, you can't pay 600M steem easily when there is only 250M steem in existance. You can't delegate a few billion steem when you only have 90 million. That's why tokens are necessary and seems like a really good way to deal with it. I'm just concerned over how we distribute them.

nice post ...

help upvote me Im newbie here

Good post best regards from me@abupasi.alachy

Joe the Plumber is here!... i mean - Mac the Painter :)

I agree with you on this one, Joe the plumber will have difficulties and will be a powerless individum on the system compared to a godlike creature of a user who knows linux and has pc power. Maybe a part of the contribution rewards can go into the token pool, let's say 3%.

It is also sad that you have 108 votes as I write this comment and only 35 views. Most hunt the best posts without reading them. That would be a nice feature for a hf20, to get only 5% of contribution rewards when the post is not read.

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I like bot voting. I may not have time to read every kaylinart post, but she's a great author and a wonderful addition to the platform. I'm happy to have a bot on guard to upvote her content. Other's have issues with that.

Otherwise it looks like tokens may only go to devs at the moment. That seems very alarming to me.

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Bots/automated voting have there place, especially with the curation trains. If there is a reliably good content author then people should have the ability to get their support in fast and automatically. That helps keep the solid content providers above the selfie food pic posts. :-)

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I was not speaking about the bots. They are such a good help for the minnows. I send also the bots to others just to vote them higher as my SP. Love the juice ;)

I was speaking about the normal user who does not take the time to read good posts and targets curation trails

Great explantion

good men

Agree with a lot of replies here. After a couple of months I am finally beginning to learn some of the finer details about posting and curations. This is not an easy platform to grasp. It does encourage a learning atmosphere, which is a challenge to me. Sharpens my skills. No way could we compete with miners. Thanks for the post. 🐓🐓

i agree with @storcogato's comment. it is not really easy tounderstand. this is an interesting read. thanks for the post @aggroed

Help me @siren7

New steemit users finding it really tough!
guys please upvote need some motivation!
please!

Aggroed you made a lovely post here. Mining indeed won't get us anywhere which can cause isulation and folks will ale advantage of steem mining

Is there any possibility of creating a mining app that even my mom could use? Is that something we could community fund?

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You need something like a web interface. username @aggroed, private token key:aggroedlovesM3, click start. Might bring additional challenges than just how to get mining on something like a web interface. I'd rather just be able to say, "hey, regardless if they were rich enough to own a computer that can handle mining I really like Sally and the way she's helping new people out, I'm going to vote for mining and let her get some tokens." I'm always left thinking mining is just another way the rich get ahead.

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It doesn't get much easier than nicehash and minergate. Both of which have paid out to me.

Thanks for bringing this to attention here! And I like your proposal for a more level-playing-field solution.

This will be so crucial for the ongoing development of this amazing new ecosystem! We can't let this become another miner oligarchy... it's enough of a circle-jerk as it is!

that a great mean of token craetion

It looks like ot gets worse everyday with the content that is on here. People who are shamelessly copying entire websites/instagram-accounts thinking they can make some easy money. The bad thing is people are actually giving this votes as well...if this wouldnt be possible anymore we wouldnt have such a massive influx of new people taking advantage of the system

I consider myself as a somewhat "technical" person. I have built my own computers (hardware and software), I know several programming languages, and I have set up countless (simple) personal networks in homes. However, when it comes to mining, I am effectively uneducated and haven't found the time to dedicate toward learning (nor do I feel that it should be necessary for me at this current point in my life).

With that said, I am significantly more "tech savvy" than the average person who we are trying to get to join this wonderful platform, and I would likely struggle to set myself up to mine Steem, so that would definitely widen the gap between the minnows and others if the platform decided to go in that direction.

Thanks for the awesome post and an alternate path we could go!

Wooow i like this
I am verry like your post
You have amazing plang...
I am @viqral support your plan @agrroed
Please upvote mine :)

I am new comer ! I have followed you, please follow back to me

Yes we need more ways than just mining tokens if this happens.

Glad I got my account when I did.

I hate mining too to create accounts. I think stake based makes sense and the ability for users to invite users using their stake. I think it would make sense to use voting power for this purpose (instead of the money going to a post it goes into the account of the new user)

Steem should remain a decentralized blockchain accessible by all who are interested. It shouldn't be made difficult for novice in technology to access.

Please follow, Upvote or promote my account in this steemit, i really need it. Hopefully not ignored. Thanks , hope you easy sustenance

What if it was Invite based. Each user can invite a friend, but the cost of doing that is a loan of their SP. The new user basically has to pay back the SP before they can make rewards them selves.
The SP is basically OUR investment in the system, so we sponsor a new member and if they don't work out then its our loss. This would limit people making tonnes of BS accounts, as they would need to be sponsored first.

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No one new could invite anyone. This wouldn't sustain.

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Of course they could. They do their time or buy their SP of course they can invite new users.
It's just stops a mass flood of randoms and fakes.

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No, it just delays them till they can pay for their fake invites. And in the meantime makes it harder to get mass adoption at all levels. You are on the right track looking for solutions, but that one just moves the problem over a notch, and makes hurdles for the basic people arriving to bring their friends, it doesn't fix the root cause.

Nice post!

👍👍👍👍

Have there been any other developments? It was kind of hectic for a few days with the bandwidth issues
(mostly resolved by SF 19). Please keep us posted!

I agree with you! Mining is too complex for the mass and we shall make sure we are not creating more small groups of individuals/accounts with out-of-balance funds (mining option). The suggestion for the team of accounts/individuals to decide on how many tokens and to whom, I think is a great idea. I suggest to make this group large, and make sure it always involves multiple accounts/individuals to decide something, eg granting an account.

Offtopic topic, I think that the number of witnesses running the Steem network is too small, this should be larger, the control is in the hands of a few and I dont think Steemians review their witness votes to often, and I don't think Steemians necessarily vote for the right reasons. A larger amount of individuals who are responsible for a task would reduce the power to be in the wrong hands, more individuals means a more average outcome when everybody need to agree to something.

It would be really great if you could provide context for such posts. You quote, but you don't link to where you quote from...