The sinking ship effect and the flat earth theory

in #flatearth6 years ago (edited)

As pointed out in my previous article there are people out there that firmly believe the earth is flat. According to them the "sinken ship effect" is just a vision. While most conspiracy theories can be very hard to disprove (no second hand information can be trusted if there really is some great conspiracy going on), the effects of the round earth should be easy to see by almost anyone.

As a sailor, the "sinking ship effect" is easily observable - but I've never actually sat down and observed this effect carefully. Today I had the perfect chance - so I did.

In a scientific experiment, one should first predict the outcome of the experiment and then actually do the experiment. Unfortunately I didn't have the chance to look up facts and do the calculations in advance this time.

There were three ships at anchor within a zone marked as "anchorage" on the map. The third was quite far from the other two.

At 5 nautic miles, I could clearly see the two ships that were near to each other. I could apparently see all of the ships; the dark hull and the white overbuilding and white cranes. Around 6 nautic miles, the deck of the ship was visible while we were at the top of the waves and invisible while we were low. At 7 nm, the deck of the ship was fully below the horizon at all times. At 8 nm, the deck of the neighbour ship also couldn't be seen, and the cranes of the first ship was not visible. I didn't check the third ship. No, this was not just my imagination and poor vision. Yes, I used binocular.

So, let's do the math again. The elevation between two relatively nearby points A and B due to the earths curvature can be be approximated to:

tan(sector/2)*distance/2

One nautic mile is the same as one minute of longtitude, and also the same as 1852 metres. Let d be the distance in nautic miles, and we get the elevation in metres e to be:

e(d) = tan(2*pi*d/360/60)*d*1852/2

Actually, the tan part there can be left out, as tan(q) -> q for small values of q.

To make this article up to SteemSTEM standards I should of course come up with the proof that my formula is right; however, I'm sitting in a boat here and I'm soon running out of batteries. I decided to do some quick quality assurance ... I found an earth curve calculator on the internet. It's slightly more advanced than my formula, but the numbers matches (if I put 1 nautic mile into my formula, I get 0.2694. If I put 1852 metres into the curve calculator and eye height 0, I get 0.2692 metres of the target hidden due to the curvature of the earth. Close enough.

According to my formula, we get (approximated):

e(5) = 7
e(6) = 10 
e(7) = 13
e(8) = 17

if one has the eyes right by the sea level. We have a pretty high cockpit, my eyes are probably ~2 metres above the sea level while sitting in the cockpit, in addition the wave height is probably around a metre ... ignoring that, we get that the deck of the smaller of the two ships should be around 10 metres above the sea level, while the deck of the bigger ship should be around 15 metres above sea level.

A quick check on MaritimeTraffic shows that the smaller ship was Kyrakatingo

Photo of Kyrakatingo

While the bigger ship was Furevik

Photo of Furevik

I'm not able to get the deck height of those vessels before I'm running out of battery - anyone else up for the challenge?

(Keep in mind that there may be several metres difference between a loaded and an unloaded ship)

Here is a photo from when we were passing those ships:


(own work, CC-BY-SA 4.0, full photo at https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmdXbaLTBjVfHvYobd15WeV3CZyuWnGEyD5XA88tzE9ez7)

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how do you know the distances to the ships. how was this done?

and you used what kind of binoculars?

how do you know the distances to the ships. how was this done?

Radar and map.

and you used what kind of binoculars?

Pretty standard nautic 7x50 binoculars.

i'm not exactly sure how this proves anything, given that a camera with 60x zoom lens brings them back into focus. that would be a ton farther than you are able to see with a 7x zoom and no tripod.

That huge long ship with the dark hull and the white overbuilding was a perfect target for this exercise, and it was perfect looking at it from the waves. Through the binoculars I could very clearly see the hull at 5 nm distance, I could very clearly see the dark hull disappearing and reappearing (apparently behind the sea) at 6 nm distance, and I could very clearly see the white overbuilding but no hull at 7 nm distance. With only my eyes it was indeed a bit unclear, but with the binocular it was crispy clear. No, you can't use a tripod on a boat rocking on the waves, but the ship sinking and reappearing was pretty convincing with 7x zoom. It's beyond my comprehension how such an effect should possibly disappear with more zoom

My simple formula is more or less correct as long as one has the eyes at the sea level, but according to the earth curve calculator the amount of hidden ("sunk") ship is dramatically lower if one has the eyes two metres above the sea level. Hence, the math in this post seems to be pretty irrelevant; it's needed to establish the exact height of my eyes above the waves while the ship is in the bottom of the wave and when it's at the top of the wave to be able to make any prediction on the deck height of those ships.

i think the point for me, is understanding how perspective works. it explains everything. games are made using these perspective techniques with no attempt to make a 'globe' shape, but still have similiar effect of things apparently disappear 'over the horizon'

hotel-long-corridor-with-a-view-of-the-stock-image_csp56291768.jpg

the fact a 60x brings back into view things that have completely 'gone over the edge' tells me that in reality all that is keeping us from seeing farther is air quality.

at times people have seen mountains from incredibly far distances, there are many videos on this topic if you are interested, no need to worry about waves messing up your calculations. i've seen multiple pics of mountains that should be 100s of feet below the horizon be visible down to the base.

so don't limit yourself to boats, there is so much proof out there...

the fact a 60x brings back into view things that have completely 'gone over the edge'

That is your claim - just like it's your claim that one can see Chicago from Michigan. I have no idea on the distance, but one definitively can't see Denmark from Norway.

From what I saw, a 7x50 was sufficient to clearly see the hull of the other boat disappearing and reappearing, admittedly I didn't have any better optics with me, but this "disappearing - reappearing"-effect was clearly not due to perspective, and it was very much in accordance with the math on that curve calculator page.

The ship was huge, it was not disappearing due to the perspective or the air.

not just my claim, funny i just posted about this...

quora agrees you can see chicago. it wasn't until the 60x zoom lenses that we could see the 500+ feet drop predicted by globe earth isn't happening.

here they are talking about it on the news (skip to 11:07)

peace.

then you had a unique experience that you need to document with video evidence. we'd all appreciate seeing proof like that.

but this might shock you, i'm not going to take your word for it.

As the ship sails into the ocean, for example, the hull of the ship will sink first. The opposite is true when the ship comes from the ocean, the mast of the ship is seen earlier than the hull of the ship.

Then, different constellations can be seen at different latitudes, and when the lunar eclipse occurs, the earth will also produce a round shadow that covers the moon.

Clever-eyed people living in seaside towns and part of maritime civilizations can observe that ships sailing near the harbor are only visible first of the mast, then the screen, and finally the ship's body. Conversely, sailors who sail near a city will see that they can only see the watchtower from a distance, but eventually can see the base of the tower and other buildings.

This is a sign that the Earth is curved and the distant ships (or buildings) are blocked by the curvature of the Earth. Conversely, sailors who sail near a city will see that they can only see the watchtower from a distance, but eventually can see the base of the tower and other buildings. This is all we know as a sign that the Earth is curved and the distant ships (or buildings) are blocked by the curvature of the Earth. By using telephoto or binoculars, in modern times it is not difficult for us to see for ourselves the ships that disappear or emerge from behind the horizon.

being able to see Chicago from Michigan is clearly proof that the earth is flat. (but the ball earthers chalk it up as a mirage... lol.)

polaris doesn't move... which is impossible given ball earth theory states we'd be moving 180 million miles from our current position six months from now....

@klevn i am from the Great Lakes and I assure you YOU CANNOT see Chicago from anywhere in Michigan. Even flying over the lake you are out of site of land for some time even at considerable altitude. The closest distance is 50 to 60 miles at the southern tip of Lake Michigan. Farther north it is double that and more.

There is such a thing as a reflected, upside-down image of the great city under special atmospheric conditions of temperature inversion layers.

Mirage of Chicago.png

This proves ... that Chicago is upside down!

Oh, now you're referring to the financial condition of the city.

quora agrees you can see chicago. it wasn't until the 60x zoom lenses that we could see the 500+ feet drop predicted by globe earth isn't happening.

here they are talking about it on the news (skip to 11:07)

and yes, they claim it is a mirage. what you have a picture of is a mirage. this clearly is not.

peace.

polaris doesn't move... which is impossible given ball earth theory states we'd be moving 180 million miles from our current position six months from now....

Polaris does move, but mostly due to precession. The speed our sun has around the galaxy is irrelevant - it actually takes some 250 million years to travel around the galaxy and that's what count. The position of polaris does indeed change over those 250 million years.

there is no situation in which this makes sense.

I'm talking about the fact that we move in the heliocentric model... not polaris.

we should see it move if we move 180 million miles from our current position every six months.

since we don't, we aren't moving.

If the earth is flat I do not understand how it happened day and night?

earth is big and the sun is closer than we've been led to believe.

Because the visible movement is measured in degrees or radians, not in kilometres. It's like a car moving in 120 km/hour on a highway in the far distance, the speed doesn't look that impressive. Now, stand at the shoulder of the highway and 120 km/h is really fast!

polaris stays centered above the north pole with very little variance.

so little in fact, that it just sits there and 'wobbles' a little. it NEVER moves beyond that wobble. (that is attributed to the wobble of the earth)

I'm talking about the fact that we move in the heliocentric model... not polaris.

we should see it move if we move 180 million miles from our current position every six months.

Right, I misunderstood, I thought of the sun travelling around the galaxy. Indeed, there is around 300000 km difference in the earths position within six months according to the heliosentric view, 3E5 km using the E-notation.

According to a quick google search, there is a staggering 4,104E15 km distance to polaris. arctan(3E5/4E15) is a good approximation on how much the polaris wobbles, measured in radians ... I get 7.5e-11 (arctan can as well be skipped, as arctan(x)- x for as x->0). That's around 10 mikroseconds of an angle on the sky.

The problem is not that the polaris isn't wobbling, the problem is that the wobbling is too small for you and me to see.

i actually find it pretty ridiculous you think you can see light from light years away when you can obviously see how quickly the light fades even within our own solar system. (using terms that are accessible)

i think it is far more likely they are closer than we've been led to believe.

one thing I found out early on, was that the big telescopes are difficult to get access to for the general public.

another thing, that blew my mind was seeing the moon zoomed in on a 60x camera. you could see the craters on the moon.

then he zoomed in a building about 7 miles away, and you could just make out the windows on the building...

and then the question was asked.. do you think you would be able to see the details of the moon so well if it was really as far away as they say? 250,000 miles is how they claim.. yet we can see the moon's details that clearly? i say we are fools for falling for it for so long.

@klevn Just as an aside, I have always been able to see the craters on the moon with an ordinary pair of binoculars. Just as you can see Andromeda galaxy: fuzzy with the naked eye and sharp with binoculars. These things amazed me as I grew up. And of course even a small rooftop telescope can reveal the rings of Saturn, even from within a city.

What I did not believe was that there was life only on this one planet. Was God so impoverished as to have only one world?

My understanding is that in surveying you do not have to allow for the curve of the Earth since it is a tiny rounding error.

What I don't believe is that people ever believed the Earth was flat. Greeks used to measure the size of the planet by measuring shadows at a given time and at known locations N & S.

I commend the effort to deconstruct appearances but I'm not yet convinced on the flat Earth. Though everything certainly is a projection in conscienceness either way.

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There are two factors making details "fade" away in the distance, one is that there will be less light hitting the eye. That's why good binoculars and telescopes have big lenses - to catch more light. Again, the distance itself doesn't matter - to get better quality, it's just to increase the light-collecting area ... or eventually the time of exposure

The other factor is the air ... the air is really making things fade. Even with a huge telescope mounted in my mast, I probably wouldn't be able to identify a person on 7 nautic miles of a distance. This effect also plays a part when watching the moon ... but it only applies to the end of the atmosphere, and the craters you can see on the moon is very big indeed, many ordes of magnitude bigger than a person.

I think there are programs allowing regular persons to select targets for some of the huger telescopes, but there are only so many huge telescopes and so many astronomers and hobby-astronomers having wishes for them. Anyway, anyone can buy a telescope, it's only the wallet setting limits to the size of the telescope.

again, you need to bring us video proof. this just ain't proof to say you saw it with your binocaulers.

when Ships arrived in North America, they say the Native Americans could not see the ships. It wasn't until the shaman saw it that it became apparent to everyone else.

so perhaps you are simply blinded by your prejudice.

you see it as you think you should. but in bringing video proof, you may find you were in fact wrong and that you were lying to yourself.

haha, "he wrote a flat earth post on steemit :)" Nice one!

Well it spread it seems because i just got reccomended on pootube a video to watch, i put the link in a reply before i realised there was conversation replys here lol!

@klven "Quora agrees." that's fine but their photo is not very convincing. It's just what we see when we are a couple of miles out in a boat. (and no telltale evidence you are standing on a shore, such as a shrub) From the air both shores drop out of site no matter which way you are flying. And I have taken numerous light planes as well as 727's and was always keen to observe the lake below.

there are plenty of long range photos being taken proving the problem with globe theory.

but i'm guessing you won't be convinced by any of them, because there is always a way to fake it.

Why then, do you believe the moon landing, the ISS feed... when literally we have tons of examples of fakery?

face in space!! at 3:24 ...

and that is just one... we have tons, upon tons of them. i included some of my favorites above, but i sense you did not watch them.

You're not just tilting at windmills, this has been as if a big intellectual challenge; even though it seems so ridiculous the first time you hear it. The Flat Earth doctrine.

Personally I'm a Round Earth theory denier -- It's not a new discovery. I believe many people always knew the planet was round going back much before the Greeks into Vedic Times and beyond. No doubt there were plenty of frightened sailors in early European exploration who were afraid of sailing in uncharted waters.

It so happens that we are living in a time where everything is being challenged and that's fine, as skepticism, empiricism and inquiry must be maintained to discover and stay with the truth. Do question the speed of light and particle theory too; question the geology, geography, the anthropology and history, question quantum physics (if you can) question everything!

Long before the present debate it was pointed out to me the way you see the mast before the hull, the peaks of buildings before bases and so on. I also have peered from the towers of the world on crystal clear days and saw the outline of the Earth drooping at either side. And from 40,000 feet too you can see the "fish eye" effect of our Earth.

I've had the same experience with cruiseships at night. When they're lit up like Christmas trees it's very obvious that you are observing the curvature of the earth.

Wow, it's so big and it reminds me of Titanic :) hopefully it will reach to his destination safely :) Thank you for letting us have a look at this artistic ship :)

Wow, it's so big and it reminds me of Titanic :) hopefully, it will reach to his destination safely :) Thank you for letting us have a look at this artistic ship :)

This is interesting. I never new about this. Good information.

Your knowledge never ceases to amaze me!
Lost in formula's hahahaha..

Something though dosn't add up to all this "shape of our planet", its obviously not completely a flat earth, but also I don't believe its a perfect sphere hahhaah got to stay open minded ;)

Your knowledge never ceases to amaze me!

Me either...

I just believe that the Earth is round, or at least pretty round, and that's it. But flat earth theory for me is just a theory and I don't think anyone will ever get to convince me about that. I'm starting to question myself now is it any planet flat, after all, in our solar system, or it's just that only Earth might be in the imagination of some...

The bummer is that we (the masses) will never know anyway,we only know what we are told haha 😂

Great jurny

Great jurny

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