EOS: Explanation of New BFT+DPoS w/ Daniel Larimer - Part 2 of 2

in eos •  last year


Daniel Larimer, CTO of block.one, goes more in depth to explain the new BFT-DPoS solution for EOS; he even compares the EOS implementation of BFT with another well-known implementation.

YouTube:

Part 1 can be found here.

Part 2 shows Dan describing how DPoS/BFT in EOS will achieve 99.9% block finality in 0.5 seconds, with absolute finality every 2 seconds or better. This will allow dapps to provide a seamless user experience, a key step in bringing blockchain adoption to a wider audience.

Dan has another instructional video and an interview with EOS Go coming in the next few weeks.

EOS Go Admins: Kev, Bluejays
Editor in Chief: Jenny (@topkpop on steemit)

Thank you:
Daniel Larimer
Thomas Cox
block.one
Sam Sapoznick
Paul Atreides (Matt)

What is EOS Go?

We are dedicated to uniting the community towards launching EOS blockchain - as envisioned by block.one. We're bootstrapping this effort through Steemit with EOS Telegram Daily Summaries and other community updates.

If you're interested in helping with the launch of EOS public blockchain please get involved on the community forums and delegate Steem Power to our cause.

Telegram users can receive announcements for these daily summaries and other community updates here.

Thank you for your support. Go EOS!


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Honestly that explanation about TaPOS at the 8 minute mark is the most concise way I've ever seen Transactions as Proof-Of-Stake explained!

Just TaPOS alone is immensely powerful and so damn elegant in its simplicity!

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Don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat, don't sell drugs. The government hates competition!

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OMG! @fuckmylife - I love your username! ha ha and I agree! lmao 🤙

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Thank you for the opportunity given to members to join the community forum. Good one there.

Thanks for this talk.
I have a follow-up question on transactions as proof of stake - what happens when you are on a fork and sign the transaction? Will it be invalid and not be applied? This may result in a loss of all the transactions that happen to be signed on forks.
And then, what is the expected fork rate on EOS? This would affect the amount of transactions that will be made invalid resulting in a worse user experience.

Dan is simply a genius, Bitshares and Steem revolutionized the world of blockchains and EOS is going to do it again

"Seamless user Experiences" Oh yeah that is what we needed to hear @rkz @unityeagle @pokerman this is what we need for the Blockie-Talkie to work in real time... OH exciting days Dawn 3.0 here we GO! thank you @eosgo

It's like I want to diversify, but really all I want to do is buy more EOS. I mean everytime I watch a video like this I just think @dan knows his stuff, he seems honest, genuine, and very smart. And he lays it out on the line, I've seen tons of videos online with him talking about BTS steem and EOS and everytime I'm impressed. Get some before June for sure, sooner is better probably

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Dan's old BTS videos are so raw and genuine, he's now a little more refined in front of the camera but just as passionate and excitable.

This is our favorite of the two DPOS+BFT videos because it's easy to see how much Dan loves what he does, plus the belief he has in his efforts to change our world. Thank you @Dan for making these videos and go EOS!

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Is the price of EOS a set price up until June?

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nope, it's a top 10 coin right now

Honstly think Ethereum will outperform Bitcoin this year and EOS will likely outperform them both.

i have 5 EOS IMG-20180126-WA0001.jpg

Nice!

What i don't understand as neccesary is the 21 block producers. Why can't this be 210 block producers? I understand that much of it is about ensuring absolute best latency, to create the fastest blockchain, is there any other reason?

The problems here are two things: Centralization in wealth of the system as well as Centralization of nodes (I know this aspect is greatly debated, having to do with mining pools and all that).
To me this is the biggest issue with EOS, Steem and Bitshares. As a regulated system maybe it's fine, it will bend to regulation much more easily than other blockchain systems. There is plenty of room for success with this model, but I do think it is giving up on some of the most disruptive aspects of blockchain.

EDIT:
This is an honest question, i'd love some discussion around this if anyone has some insight.

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Humans can only be reasonably expected to process the decision to vote for 21 different choices. I believe this is back by some scientific research. Not sure the source.

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well definitely don't buy that. You don't need to vote for 21 of the nodes, votes are ultimately set by network stake anyway. So votes don't count 1:1 per person, and witnesses are elected by total vested voting weight.

Especially as EOS plans to be a much bigger network than steem, for all types of applications to be built on top of, it seems like this number of witnesses is an unnecessary restriction on the network.

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Well I will try to explain at least what I think.
As you saw in the video you need 2/3 of producers in order to produce a irreversible block. In percentage terms 14/21 is the same as 140/210, but in the later you need to produce 140 blocks to reach this irreversible block with would be 10x slower. Also token holders would need to choose from a pool of 210 or so producers witch would take longer and harder to decide. So conclusion 21 looks like a good balance between decentralization, speed and consensus. My 2 cents.

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Yeah, that is fair that it has a particular balance to it. Just don't think it is a good solution once the network gets gigantic. Maybe the backup witness model does account for that well enough.

Although, seems like EOS has gotten rid of paying the reserve witnesses? Not sure what would incentivise people to run a backup witness then.

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Runner ups still get paid according to number of votes cast for them - so incentivizes continued campaigning. Should be profitable to run a reserve node.

https://github.com/EOSIO/eos/issues/1033

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You only need 21 BP to be decentralized. More is just a waste of ressources according to Dans calculations. If we would want 42, we would need to put the inflation to 10%. Dan designed everything for optimum performance and the lowest inflation possible

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No way would they need to increase the inflation rate, that is what I'm saying, nodes are going to be way way over payed.

Lets take the $10 billion marketcap we have right now. 5% of $10 billion = 500 million. 500 million divided by 21 = $23 million per year to run a node. That is at todays rate, with (our price with an unreleased product). People think EOS is gonna go way up in price (peraonally peraonally I think it's overvalued right now), so if EOS reaches >$100 nodes will be making over $100 million a year... Not really a good way to distribute wealth in a system in my opinion this is a big problem. If there were 42 nodes instead of 21 they would be making $50million a year to run a node. Still way too much.

This might make sense when there are multiple platforms being used by millions and millions of people. Until then this kind of price is ridiculous

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Hi Solar, there are a couple of points I could maybe clarify here for you (I am from EOS UK Block Producer Candidate so we have asked a lot of similar questions).

The first point is that the 5% inflation is often incorrectly assumed to go to the 21 BP's but it does not all go to the 21 BPs.

It is split 3 ways.

It is split between the Worker Proposal Fund, the 21 BPs and the 100 Standby BPs.

Each Standy BP has to be able to take over at a moments notice and run a full read only node and to do this requires running a minimum of 10 dedicated machines, 4 full time staff, 2 x 15GB diversely routed connectivity, etc etc. The cost for running even the 121st standby Block Producer is well over 1M USD per annum.

This does not include any provision for the addition of the IPFS storage either which is still to be announced, and the network is going to have to scale massively once it goes live if it grows at an incredible rate as we all hope it will, once it is up and running.

Plus the security protection the nodes will require is going to be massive, as we expect that every hacker looking to make a name for themselves will be all over it looking for attack surfaces, especially during launch and the early days of the network, so you cannot under estimate costs for this equipment and skilled personal.

So in short it is going to be expensive to begin with, and more expensive as soon as it launches and then even more expensive as adoption grows! The good news though is that all BP candidates who are serious about doing a good job for the network (which we all are, because we're all EOS hodlers too!) are being transparent about their ownership and transparent about their plans and costs.

We intend to fully reinvest all Block Rewards into creating the most robust node humanly possible, for a long, long time, before we start diverting any profits into our community project (EOS University) and I am pretty sure all other BPs are of the same mind. We're finding the BP community, and the EOS community as a whole to be an amazing cross section of the global population who are all genuinely interested in doing the right thing for the good of the network and the good of humanity.

It's almost bizarre, but I think it comes with the territory, if you get as far as learning about EOS you have got there as a result of specific personal journeys that have peaked your interest in it enough to continue learning, and then you just like it more and more, the more you learn.

Anyway, I'm getting carried away now, I was only going to offer a couple of points but there we go! If I can help answer any other questions then please reach out to me.

We are very interested to know what questions the EOS hodler community want answered, because not only do we have to first launch the network on 3rd June 2018 to enable voting, we then have to get voted for!

So we think the best way to achieve this is to try and understand what the community wants to know the most, and then try to answer those questions as comprehensively and transparently as possible. So please, drown me in questions, everybody! :-)

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Thanks for the reply, even on an old post. Glad to hear that the budget will be more nuanced than that. It's an exciting system, Even though it's strength is it's datacenter nodes, I still think this is it's weakest point as well.

What type of knowledge does it take to setup a node? Advanced server and networking it seems? And CS skills in the language EOS is written in to configure your node?

GO DAN, GO!!!

What a great exposé of the EOS technology and what sustains it. Thanks a lot for sharing this revolutionary asset!

Namaste :)

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Thanks Eric and we tend to agree, Dan did a great job explaining his work. Go EOS!

Great easy to understand content. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to future updates!

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We're pleased to share more videos from Dan and Thomas Cox in the next two weeks, both were very gracious with their time and we can't thank them enough.

Thanks a lot..

great

This is definitely game changing stuff happening here. The existing DPoS of Bitshares & Steem are likely fast enough for many applications, but high volume, industrial grade solutions definitely need this level of throughput and confirmation.

I think the "real world" commercial markets will slowly wake up to the fact that blockchain technology is finally going to be ready for their workloads.

Exciting times ahead!

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Agree

Awesome post! Dan explaining a super complex problem in an easy way. :)

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We agree and are continually inspired by Dan's passion to teach about the tech he has created.

Also, we'd like to help spread the word about @kesarito here - he just released the newest block explorer for EOS testnet and it's an impressive effort this early in the process. Thank you and go EOS!

Thanks @dan for spending your time on this content for the community.

Please add Python & R bindings with EOS such that we can program smart contracts using these languages.

nice explanation, Thank you for good contents.

Nice video :D

EOS Projects Make people very excited and support the project absolutely absolutely

I am curious to see how this EOS platform is about to develop and obviously when it's getting launched! :)

I wanted to buy EOS as early as 0,40$ per token.. but.. I didn't have money to put into crypto :(
Bummerrr.. still glad I discovered crypto

eos related. I watched the live broadcast ... What a strange sound ... Charlie Chaplin, I heard something from Hitlunge video ... I should have guessed from there ...
There is no story about partnership with an important company ... it is a strange video .. I did not understand much anyway.
Frankly, this time I wanted the coins to be good.
So I looked at the market of coins positively ... It would have been convinced that ahakoin is really a 4th industry and the potential for development is enormous.
But this time I saw the Ios Coin Commit. Is it really new technology? I heard a strong feeling
If you are like an official summit in Korea, you should have appealed something that is a little more epoch-making or intuitive. I hope to have hope, though.

great learning skill bro keep it up..i support you

Before Dan releases another coin, I'd like to see him respond to this:

Anyone that supports digital currency over physical money like silver and gold is the enemy of humanity:

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@r0achtheunsavory/the-r0ach-report-38-anyone-who-supports-digital-currency-over-silver-and-gold-is-the-enemy-of-humanity

Thank you for your support EOS.. You help me learn something new everyday

Woud it be in fact conceivable to move steemit onto the eos blockchain? Furthermore, would it bode well? I'm pondering what sense it makes to control up and put resources into steemits future when this is plainly the successor. Is steemit sufficiently huge to get by without anyone else? Inquiries above inquiries..

good post, I like your post ..

I need your support please visit my blog https://steemit.com/@muliadi
if you like my post please give upvote, resteem &follow me.
thank you, keep on steemit.

Great video. Thanks for sharing.

This is perfect explanation of DPos, I believe the whole bitshare is getting reconfigured after watching your video. Im sure we will see such advancement in the future with more speed to help grow the blockchain community. That my different perspective when dev. takes places!

About a year ago dan blew our minds by eluding to a new blockchain implementation that would make blockchain state static and the transactions dynamic, exactly like mmorpgs and all other online video games where the only dynamic is the actions and the state is the client. I was wondering if he spoke more on that, such technology seems like it would greatly reduce the load on servers, anyone know what's going on with that?

Very informative lecture with Dan. Will there be more lectures to come?

Be buying some EOS myself. Your explanation further helps better my knowledge.

now i am also learning

Thanks, @dan! Do you have ballpark specs on the block producer hardware requirements?

Way to go Dan. Making something good into something better.

I don't understand... isn't this the exact same consensus mechanism as NEO already uses (dBFT)?

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Basically NEO uses DPOS but they renamed it without referencing were the consensus mechanism was first used (Bitshares).

EOS vs Cardano! Go!

Daniel you are a genius mate, keep on! :D

I just got rid of all my EOS I guess I need to get more!!!

I see great opportunity in HST token because I can't see exaggerated marketing about HST unlike other coins (or tokens) without any good project. Once, they will emphasize marketing, the price will skyrocket and I want to participate in it. Right now it's listed only on Cryptopia, Kucoin, EhterDelta, and LiveCoin – once listed on some big exchange like Binance or Bittrex, the price will fly to the moon!
http://promisingcoins.com/hot-tips/decision-token/

These were great. Keep up the great work! More interviews please. They're great to share with the community, and to bring em over from the darkside!

hey , thanks for such an awesome update , i havve also wrote about the new partnership of tron with spacety , here is the link :https://goo.gl/2cgFK7

I will try to watch the first video

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Both videos are very educational!

Video kamu bagus..

honestly at first I didn't understand what was in our different languages due to explain, but I tried to learn what was described by using google translate the sound, so I have to understand that that project is about the development of the EOS on combine a telegram. its like I'm interested with this, may I know how to be able to join the community?

and permission right me to resteem this post.

restemmm.JPG

This post gives me ideas to put both DTube and YouTube at the same time since DTube loads slow..
I still don't understand EOS I think I need to watch and read the part one.

Lens EF (Electrofocus) = This type of lens is intended for the type of Full Frame camera sensor that has a large lens diameter. This lens is marked by a red dot on the back. EF lenses are usually suitable for beginner DSLR cameras like the 1100D, 600D to professional 60D and 7D.
EF-S (Electrofocus - Short Back) lens = this lens type is specially designed for non-full frame cameras because of the smaller sensor size. This lens is marked with a white dot on the back. EF-S can not be used on Canon EOS 1Ds and 5D cameras.Thanks you @eosgo for the information. good information for photography

EOS,1,2,3!To the moooooooooooon!

Good informative post.thanks for sharing this post. Upvote now done @eosgo

Hello Every One ?anybody help me ?? how to transfer steem dollar in local bank account ?
https://steemit.com/@shireen

I learned a lot... Thank you for sharing @eosgo... More videos to watch and more lessons...

Woud it be technically possible to migrate steemit onto the eos blockchain? And would it make sense? I’m wondering what sense it makes to power up and invest in steemits future when this is clearly the successor. Is steemit big enough to survive on its own? Questions above questions...

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it is definitely possible.

I think eos is the real etheruem killer beacuse better performance and less difficulty then etheruem
I personally feel it could take place of etheruem and 2018 gonna be big for eos

Very interesting. Thank you

Informative

Another video to watch to build a precise comparison of cryptocurrencies solutions !

very nice

Thank's for this post.

your following me, so I'm going to up vote!

Really great explanation. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to understand this complex topic.

Good,thank

This is such an indepth explanation of how it all works, i like how he explains it in a way thats very easy for anyone to understand! @eosgo thank you for this post!! I LOVE CRYPTO!!!

Thanks for these videos. You really put it on the bottom shelf....for people like me who need it on the bottom shelf!

Woowww.. nice video. Not forget follow me and video me

keep on kicking goals i got a really good feeling about this

Please impress my publication

Dan the man! Loving all that's coming out of that noggin' of yours. Seems the more I dive into blockhain tech, the more you keep popping up! :P

I'm currently a mobile developer and VERY interested in dapps, and go figure my two new fascinations are EOS and Steem. As platforms they are sheer genius.

Actively in the process of immersing myself in blockchain tech (and still have lots to learn) but in regards to the consensus network, I dig the interconnected geometry in order to efficiently correlate the elected nodes. I can see how that coupled with the dynamism of block production vs. broadcast frequency could greatly improve the overall confirmation latency of the network. With everything else under the hood, this enables a whole new realm of near realtime dapp experiences. Hell yea, very excited!

Keep up the great work. And that is also directed to anyone else reading who may be trailblazing these new frontiers, crafting awesome user experiences, and moving the needle towards a more unified world where we all can prosper!

Call me a fan boy but there are far reaching implications in all this 'blockchain/crypto' stuff. Not just from the technological perspective, but from the overarching model of how it works. It enables (and ultimately requires) a strong community for it to even exist. One where prosperity for all involved can occur from its utilization. Granted there are "bad apples" and people will take advantage of others where they can (in the short term at least) but that ultimately cannot be sustained in a system which seeks a symbiotic and balanced relationship.

He's certainly a genius. Quite remarkable what he's been able to accomplish with Graphene and then the the blockchain applications...

Thanks ! very useful
Also interesting to see that a marker and a board are a very powerful communication tool in blockchain times :)

Dont get a word the guy is saying. Sounds like all science fiction to me. Does this man should talk to Charles hoskin. Why shouldn't they have a debate on Youtube or dtube to udnerstand difficult theiories, I no understand, Is speed the Everything in everything? Only thing to judge something by only SPeed. The fastest jet, bullet train, is the best in everything? educate me, thank you

great post, great content, keep up the good work. check out my blog for coins that could possibly do a 10 to 100x and let me know your opinion, thanks

Really cant wait for Main net to launch!

Also, let me know if you needs some Marketing help in "trade" for some EOS ;-)

@dan I could create you some motion graphics video intros for your personal blog here on Steemit and for EOS in general. - Just let me know buddy, want to get involved... 🤙

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Good work, followed you!

Anyone else looking forward to the mainet launch in june?

Thanks for the lesson!

I like for posting you

Great info! I’m very big on EOS and the possibilities for these guys! I’m new to the community and still trying to figure steemit out any info would be great

resteemed this! Nice video man!

Thanks so much for the technical overview! A few things stood out to me that need more clarification or context. This will probably sound negative but I'm trying to engage these points honestly and openly and invite discussion or rebuttal or more detail or whatever that defuses the concerns (if they're even concerns rather than features)

  • It was asserted that the major stakeholders would be known entities (governments, large firms) with known locations, reputations, etc.

This feels more like something half-way between a private ledger and a public one. It also seems susceptible to cartels pooling enough stake to usurp one of the known entities as a block producer or otherwise contaminate the voting pool.

  • Large entities do bad things all the time

Wells Fargo? Small governments a la Zimbabwe or Venezuela? BP? Just because an entity is well known and has a reputation does not mean they are bound to uphold that reputation or have any accountability in a real sense. They could screw a lot of people before getting voted out of the system.

  • Addressing the above, the response seems to me to be, punish after the fact

This is just another way of saying the market will sort it out. We know that's not true in the real world because of consolidation. One of the criticisms you leveled at the Cardano project was the natural consolidation of stake in the system would lead to imbalanced stake pools that their protocol doesn't account for. This will obviously lead to Too Big to Fail stakeholders. How does EOS cope with that should one of those large stakeholders turn bad actor? What does it mean to seize a stakeholder's bond? How does this lead to anything but more consolidation and in fact incentivizing cartels among large stakeholders to either attack each other or defend against financial attacks?

There also seem to be some odd features of the protocol to me - for reference I work on large, distributed systems in my day job as a software developer.

  • Finalization is synchronous

This obviously gives a performance improvement for irreversibility but makes the system vulnerable to network hiccups doesn't it? That's the benign case of course - what about deliberate interference by governments, ISPs, botnets, etc.?

  • You said two things that I can't reconcile: the system can continue as long as there is 1 honest participant still minting blocks and it's invalid to reconcile beyond the last finalized block

How can those both be true? Assume a non-malicious network partition. There is some shared history between the cohorts of honest participants A <- B <- C. C is the last finalized block they share. When the network rights itself, you have 2 histories that likely contain multiple finalized blocks that have been confirmed by 2/3 of the participants in each partition. Now that the nodes can all see each other again, what happens? It seems there is no way all those finalized blocks survive or they aren't truly finalized or something. Perhaps you could construct a single chain out of them but it's possible that that a person has transactions in both chains that are irreconcilable (double spend). What happens here?

I'd like to reiterate that I am genuinely curious about these points, this isn't meant to be nitpicking.

@dan I want to invest in EOS and get in on this, but its saying since I'm in the USA, I can invest via the website. Anyway around that? This looks huge, the sooner the better... Thanks in advance. P.S, Are you leaving steemit completely? I see that your powering down a ton...

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PS. If you have not seen this latest video of Dan explaining yet more amazeballs re EOS yet then it is really worth investing the time, it's a really good quality production too, so easy to watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=sYAktmG1NuA