Will Money Be Missed In A Post Scarcity World?

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Let us start this particular musing with a thought experiment. Imagine for a moment if you will, that I have come to visit you one night, and I take you off in my speed of light rocket ship for a day.

When we return, even though it has been 24 hours for us, 506 years on earth has passed, and things are very different.

For a start our economic system as we know it has completely evaporated. There is no money to speak of, nobody living in the depths of poverty or at the height of riches.

All of your basic needs and more are taken care of, there is an abundance of food and housing, and travel is available to all and completely unrestricted.

The question I want to ask you is; what do you do now?

The Root Of All Action?

Before we answer that question, let's pause our thought experiment and spend a small amount of time contemplating what money does for us now.

The primary function of money in society is perhaps without question. We use cash to represent, and transfer value from one place to another. Without it, we cannot obtain food or shelter, without having to resort to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

However there is a secondary function that is often overlooked, and that is one of a motivator, or even perhaps more accurately, an innovator.

We see evidence of this all the time, some of the greatest and most useful inventions of all time came about as a way to gain greater profits. What we don't perhaps take note of too often, is how the potential lack of profits stifles and halts innovation.

Take for instance the space race looked at from a commercial point of view. Now of course we have Elon Musk's SpaceX, but what has taken so long; why is it only now that private interests are seeking to colonise space, almost half a century since man stepped on the moon?

An interesting theory is that the lack of protection of commercial interests is a major factor in why no company has bothered to try and commercialise objects beyond our planet's gravity well.

You see, shortly after we landed on the moon, practically every country in the world signed an agreement that nothing in space could ever be owned by an individual, government, or corporate body.

This means that if you want to set up a company to bring an asteroid back into earth's orbit and mine it, there is nothing stopping my company flying up there and plundering the rock after you do all the hard expensive work bringing it back.

You couldn't take me to court because nobody can own anything in space. This state of affairs is said to be a prime mover in the space race. According to some, without this non-ownership agreement, we may well have advanced in space a lot further than we have thus far.

Whether that particular theory is correct or not, it is hard to argue against the case for profits being a prime motivator to innovate and generally get things done.

So the question remains; what does society do once we don't need money any more; and will we miss it when it's gone?

Let The Games Begin!

If you put a rat in a cage with two buttons, one that gives it food, and one that stimulates the pleasure centre in the brain. Instead of pressing the food button now and again, the rat will instead choose pleasure, and starve to death.

This behaviour is not exclusive to rats, if you could feel satisfaction from just thinking about food, then you too would probably starve. Similar behaviour is seen in chronic alcoholics or drug addicts, preferring their particular chemical pleasures over health and nutrition.

All this means is that we do things because they are pleasurable, this is the inescapable fact of evolution. Be you a human being, or a simple amoeba, you are motivated to do things because they are enjoyable.

Thus when we are freed from doing things because we need to feed our base pleasures of eating and keeping warm. We will need to find new things to keep us going, and where better to look than sport and games?

In sport we can still satisfy another base instinct; to compete, and of course we can still keep score, something we seem to be fairly obsessed about.

Back To The Future

So we've just landed back on good old planet earth after more than half a millennium. I personally am going to go and check out how much extra knowledge I can upload into my brain, then go and check out some of the many game parlours.

I won't miss money, but will you; and what are you going to do in this post-scarcity, new economy world?

AS EVER, LET ME KNOW BELOW!

Cryptogee

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I love your witty thought experiment.

I would like to make a parallel between money and time. As you pointed out, the fact that money is scarce is a great motivator. The same can be said for time.

Whenever we are on a strict deadline, we work harder. If we had indefinitely long lives, I don't know how motivated we would be to accomplish anything.

I guess that competition and prestige would become the biggest motivators and innovation boosters. People would still compete who will be the most famous, the most esteemed, the first to discover.

As per me, in this post-scarcity world I would first start doing all the things that are currently unavailable to me due to non-infinite resources. I would travel the world, taste many different cuisines, go to sea depths, go into the space, ride a camel in a desert, play with chimps in a jungle, swim with dauphins in a sea. Than I would probably go back to mostly dancing Tango.

Cheers! : )

As ever, your comments are sparking more musings within me! I like the fact that you drew the parallel between money and time. Indefinite time and no basic needs will most likely have a very similar effect on society, it's interesting to wonder whether we'll be motivated to do anything anymore.

After all fame is linked to fortune, I've never met anyone who just wanted to be famous and remain poor. Also in a world where we can upload a physics PHD directly into our brains, will discoveries be seen in a new light...?

I think we'll all be dancing Tango in our own ways, hedonism will likely become the driving motivator for human life.

Hmm, more musings coming on methinks!

Cheers to you too! :-)

Cg

Also in a world where we can upload a physics PHD directly into our brains, will discoveries be seen in a new light...?

An interesting thought! Maybe in that world, we will also be able to upload into our brains an AI that makes discoveries.

This also expands on your articles about AIs and humans - we might not be too inferior to "independent" AIs if we can also boost our brains with "nonindependent" AIs.

Looking forward to more musings! : )

@cryptogee,

Your thought experiment is interesting (as they always are) but it is based upon a premise, that there will ever be time without money. I find this highly unlikely.

Money is an "intermediate unit of exchange." But it is a unit of exchange that is based upon labor. If you have no labor ... you have no currency. Gold, for example, does not derive its value from its unique arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons, but rather from the astonishing amount of work that it takes to find it, mine it and refine it. If it were just lying around everywhere, it would be worth little to anyone.

Of course, that brings up the whole debate about strong-AI and robots making humans economically obsolete, which we've already discussed, so I won't belabor the point further.

One of the problems with so many future-focused thought experiments is that they're done in isolation, i.e., they consider only science, technology, biology, psychology, economics, etc. ... individually. And, this would seem like good practice as it adheres to the scientific method ... only change one independent variable at a time.

The problem is that economies are highly complex with hundreds of inter-connecting variables, and considering one variable independently, in isolation from the rest, is simply unrealistic.

Your analogy about the rat experiment is also interesting but, I would respectfully argue, incomplete. Yes, the rats will press a lever wired up to trigger dopamine release in their brains, instead of a lever that delivers food, and thereby starve themselves to death.

But this is cheating, no?

Normally, eating food stimulates dopamine (reward). All the experimenters did was give the rats an artificial method of delivering a higher dose of dopamine. In essence, rats aren't motivated to eat food for foods sake, ... they eat food because it gets them dopamine.

While we can program and re-program computers at will, human beings are a different story. Science is not within a million miles of being able to rewire the primary motivators of the human brain ... one of which is Self-Interest.

I discuss some this and more in an article, "Entitled: Killing Off Cryptogee's Fantasy Girlfriend." (@old-guy-photos said you were traveling so perhaps you missed it.)

https://steemit.com/ai/@quillfire/killing-off-cryptogee-s-fantasy-girlfriend-is-ai-even-possible-in-non-biological-entities

As ever, you have given me lots to think about and respond to all at the same time!

Money is an "intermediate unit of exchange." But it is a unit of exchange that is based upon labor. If you have no labor ... you have no currency.

Exactly, so I'm imagining a world whereby the labour done in the world is done by machines which are energy positive. So all the work that needs to be done, is done for us and therefore taking away a need to represent value via work done.

I get your point about intrinsic value, however gold does have a use beyond being a shiny bauble for us to adorn our bodies and faces with. It is incredibly useful in computing, and in fact there are people in certain African countries that mine gold from discarded computers.

One of the problems with so many future-focused thought experiments is that they're done in isolation, i.e., they consider only science, technology, biology, psychology, economics, etc. ... individually. And, this would seem like good practice as it adheres to the scientific method ... only change one independent variable at a time.

The problem is that economies are highly complex with hundreds of inter-connecting variables, and considering one variable independently, in isolation from the rest, is simply unrealistic.

Agreed, it is a big problem when engaging in futurethink to use one variable as a deterministic principle, along with the fact that we try and second guess tech that simply hasn't been invented yet and the impact of said technology on our lives. It's an interesting way to go about it though, perhaps after some time of changing variables we will have some kind of bigger picture.

Your analogy about the rat experiment is also interesting ............But this is cheating, no?

Yes and no, it is because of course it engineers a completely false situation, however as you point out, the experiment does show that the rat eats for dopamine, and the pain of hunger becomes insignificant next to that desire. However it does give us insight into what really drives us as biological entities, and I believe that may also give us a clue as to how we may behave in a world whereby basic need no longer gave us the dopamine rush we used to get.

I was indeed travelling getting a much needed break, I love the title and I'm off to read it right now! :-)

Cg

@cryptogee,

I cannot help but draw an analogy between the rats pressing a lever to get dopamine (and thereby starving to death) ... and our (mine included) collective behavior here on Steemit! :-)

Do you see the parallel?

Gotta run ... GINAbot just beeped (as I scarf down a Sausage Egg McGriddle ... no time to cook).

I think there are levels of post scarcity and 500 years will not make money obsolete.
I can even grant you a millennium. Imagine fully automated world. The solar system is colonized. There are no human/posthuman being that lack any basic need – food, shelter information, freedom… At that point the total population of the solar system in physical form (altered, augmented or cybernetic) may be 10 times bigger than the current population of the planet and the digital population could be unimaginable number. Maybe we will be in the middle of constructing Dyson Swarm which will give us more living space than all habitable planets in the galaxy combined. And still there may be scarcity, because we are humans… and we are never happy with what we have. If we want to create synthetic black hole we will need more energy than the solar system could offer us. Or if we decide to colonize the stars we will build generation ships as big as cities. Such projects will create scarcity for other projects…

Two to five hundred years. Where did I get those numbers? I made them up.

To be truly post-scarcity you need to be able to make anything rapidly and cheaply, whether it's diamonds (easy, they're just carbon) or potatoes (very complicated). Ideally, you need to be able to take a bag of protons, one of neutrons, and one of electrons, and assemble any atoms, then any molecules, you want out of them, as if they were LEGO bricks.

We are centuries away from being able to do that, in my opinion.

Agreed, we are indeed centuries away from that (probably), however I am envisioning a post-scarcity world way before that.

We are not too far away from machines being able to do all the most menial work, renewable energy for all is just round the corner. Add to that the fact that we are progressing in society as far as providing for people is concerned (with some notable exceptions).

Today they are more than twice as many people dying from over eating as do from malnutrition, soon there will be nobody dying from starvation, this is the post-scarce world that I speak of (even if we went of for 500 years in the thought experiment :-) )

Cg

In a post-scarcity society, we can assume that every person will have all their basic needs met all the time. But there will still be ways in which some people have what other people want. It might be tangible, like beautiful oceanfront property. It might be intangible, like love and affection, or the admiration of others. But there will always be some types of scarcity.

And this creates some interesting issues. In a post-scarcity society, there’s no money…so how will you pay a police force to protect your waterfront home?

We’re nowhere close to that yet, so it’s about like a Roman Centurion trying to predict what modern-day London is like. But these will be interesting problems to solve.

In a post-scarcity society, there’s no money…so how will you pay a police force to protect your waterfront home?

No money implies no crime connected to money, so we probably wouldn't need a police force. Property (I'm hoping) won't have such an importance placed on it when you can go anywhere and build anything...

Cg

I think we don't have to do things based on the pleasure we want to derive from it at that particular point in time. What am saying in essence is that, we should try to consider what we stand to gain in future and try to sacrifice somethings even if we have to go through some pains at that particular moment. Think more of the future, investment is the best

As human beings we are uniquely placed to do what you describe, to essentially plan for the future. However that is an intellectual pursuit, that is why most people understand they have to work to survive, but very few can sacrifice personal pleasure in order to save for the future.

The interesting thing to think about, is what will happen to us when nobody has to save for the future?

Cg

On a lighter note
When I come back, I will definitely look at bitcoin ad steem price:D

I don't know if you are smoke but I would love to smoke some weed and have a conversation with you! Lol!
You have a very powerdul imagination, no doubt about it and I can't say that i haven't thought about this ideea a few times. Freud once said that life is like a race for pleasure and that pleasure can only come as a temporary satisfaction as we solve the immediate needs and desires of ourselves. That might explain the rat problem.
As for the new world, it's easy to imagine such an Utopia but hard to comprehred the circumstances that would make one. How will we have enough? How will all have the same ammount of wealth when some people feed the need to have more and they can take it from anywhere and so many more questions.
It's been a great excercise for my mind and no doubt that i will give it more thought. Untill next time, great work man! I love your imagination!

Thanks for your comments, we must sit down and have a smoke together sometime :-)

How will all have the same ammount of wealth...?

For me post-scarce does not necessarily mean we're all equally wealthy, it just means that nobody wants for basic needs such as food, shelter, and water. It also means that energy is abundant and so the need for material based wars has been eradicated.

In such a society, wealth would be viewed very differently to the way we view it today, like you say, it's a great exercise for the mind trying to comprehend such matters! :-)

Cg

Sounds like I'll just be having a lot of sex! Sorry couldn't resist after all the pleasure talk. I hope theres enough motivated and altruistic people to keep everything together or else we are heading for problems

Sex will indeed be high on a lot of people's agenda, as for the motivated and altruistic people, I think you're right, although the need for a lot of these people will vanish in a post-scarce world.

Cg

What a fun train of thought to explore! Firstly, this is SO true -

What we don't perhaps take note of too often, is how the potential lack of profits stifles and halts innovation.

I think that some people without a fire under their butts to take action will slack but that the vast majority of humans will be taken into all kinds of endeavors by their curiosity and desire to connect and engage with others and the human need to discover what we can do and to experience our own prowess.

For me, I'd definitely slow wayyyyy downnnn which would make life so much nicer! And I would probably do some of what I already do with my daily practices, self mastery, and art making but it would be more joy and curiosity driven. I'd also travel a lot and spend a lot of time enjoying this world and all that life has to offer with friends and family. I'd walk the 5 miles out to my favorite restaurant instead of driving, and I'd try far more restaurants and I know something else I'd really love is to see what other people are doing. I'd enjoy seeing them create, and whatever else they are doing.

the vast majority of humans will be taken into all kinds of endeavors by their curiosity and desire to connect and engage with others and the human need to discover what we can do and to experience our own prowess.

I think this is undoubtedly true, however what I'm wondering, is will we have a collective will to do? Without industry driving us forward, will the effort of the individual be enough. One person designed the printing press, however it took the commercial will of many to turn it into a daily part of our lives.

Cg

True, true but I think that alongside the individual need to create and "do", we also as a species have a need to work together, to do stuff together, to be part of something greater than our individual selves. And whether we'll get too lazy for this to continue I don't know but I like to think that our drives to do, be, create, interact and see evidence of our efforts will rise above everything else. Of course I AM an idealist ;-)

I hope you're right; and maybe it's just a case of new incentives will take the place of the old economic ones. One thing is for sure though, we'll all be a lot happier without it. :-)

Cg

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