Steem Basic Income Giveaway (Medication and Pregnancy...)
Thanks to everyone who responded about who they most resembled out of their mother or father...... it is always interesting to see how we take the traits (good and bad) of the ones that spend so much time shaping our early lives.
Anyway, this week is a more of a tougher question... I was listening to some podcasts... and most of my podcasts are quite scientific in nature, and there were interviews with researchers who were highlighting how most of modern medicine has been geared towards the treatment and efficacy in men. Now, this is not a discrimination thing as such... it was just deemed in the past that the fluctuating hormone levels of women made them unreliable test subjects for medical trials. Needless to say, this has meant that there are certain drugs that work much less well in women (or not at all...) due to the lack of testing on subjects.
As a corollary to this, there has also been a lack of information and testing of drugs in pregnant women... for some reason, it is considered unethical to test on a pregnant women (joking... don't flame me...). Thus, pregnant women are usually unable to get prescriptions from a doctor as most of them will just say... I'm not sure... I don't know!
So, without going to the bad old days of the early 20th century where you could just test medical treatments out on unsuspecting humans... should we be testing medical drugs on pregnant women?
My Question
- Do you think it would be a good idea (ethical...) to test medicines on pregnant women, to gather data about the efficacy of the drugs... so that women who are pregnant and in need of some sort of medicine can have some certainty about efficacy and side effects?
My sample answer
Well... I'm stuck. On one hand, I am of the opinion that more data is always better, and so there is that side of me which says that as long as the trials are not forced, and the pregnant women are consenting... then there is no problem! However, that said... there is a potential third party who can not give consent...
... on yet another hand, I do think that abortion is a women's right.. and no one else's business.. and that also involves the lack of consent from the same third party.
... so, I would say that in the case of abortion, I don't consider early term pregnancies to be "alive", much in the same way I wouldn't consider single and multi-celled creatures "alive". By "alive", I mean that they are conscious and intelligent life forms.... so by this reasoning, I would consider that the third party consent of the fetus, is the proxied to the mother.
... so, if I follow the same logic, then the medical experimentation on pregnant women is not a problem as long as the woman has given consent for the trial. In the end, it is more useful to have solid data so that treatments can be suggested and given with some degree of certainty. Acting (or avoiding action) whilst cloaked in ignorance is for me a far greater danger...
... bleah... but like I said, I'm not sure!
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(p.s. excuse me if I sound rude at some points - my english lacks of nuances, as I am not a native speaker. I spent 50 mins of my life on this right now... it would be a nice thing for me to receive smth back. I do lack RC for commenting and communicating on my level.. thats it..)
the ethical questions are the most hard ones, cause they DONT have a clear single answer, its a bit like a game with non-zero summa. the answer valid to one socium in given time, can be very unvalid to other socium in another time, with other given conditions. there were periods of history, where the quote 'human's life is the cheapest thing in univerce' was born.
now, let me take myself to your Q.
the answer is: yes, why not! when we change xxx to woman, it is still "yes'. when we change xxx to 'pregnant woman', suddenly it occures that we have are stalking a grey zone, and have doubts. did something changed... sufficiently? there were some laws, that prohibited a (guilty and pregnant) woman execution till she give a birth to her child. I think, the basic idea is the same here: we can talk out and do what we need with the woman, but we have no moral rights to do anything with her child.
I think using logica will bring us to a further logical decision: given that mother is responsible for her child and makes all the decisions for his well-being, using un-tested drug is upon her decision. (did we get any 'new' knowlegde through these reasonings? I dont think so, actually). oh, and by the way, during pregnancy women's ability to think, to considerate things and take comprehensible desisions -- falls down considerably...
we can try to count pros and contras of each decision (to take untested drugs or not to). tho I consider we cant sum up mechanically pros and contras in this case. to me (i'm not a loving mother) bonus to all the human sociaty prevails the minus of losing one certain baby, or getting it injured during the medication. the value society will be getting in the long-run perspective, the mankind is already 8 billions and still growing, Doctor Maltus is laughting very much at us from Heaven. we are a problem for our planet, and it will be solving this problem in one way or another. and it already started, you know. wars, diseases and the hunger - is the arsenal.
but all this considerations is a total waste of time, just an excersise in rhetorics. the answer is: yes! and you know, why? just because!
also, I think your question is kinda a trap. any words are a trap, actually. I mean, being constructed in this way, the question is momentarily direct you, your mind, your modus operandi to move in a certain direction.
do we need pregnant women to bring us some new healthy members of society? of course!! should we increase by all possible means the odds that worsen it? yes. (who will put here 'no', I wonder?.. ) -> then medicine is ok. correct? no! it seems to me, exactly here the substitution of the concept takes place, we substitute a part of the answer that is known in advance... the 'good medicine' suddenly grows to the size of A Very Huge Importance in our days. you think all about it, like, what if she is getting no medicine, the concequences will be terrible, diff problems, injury, maybe death. The truth is: healthy woman will not need medicins, actually, she dont need even doctors! doctors and medicines are needed to a percent of woman, whose cases really suffer from some problems. and now, the sad news: there amount of healthy women in our society ... well, I think you've got the idea.
so. my conclusion: people have to be well-educated, trained (yes! giving a birth is a bit like a job done in a right way, it needs some training and skills etc), and medicine is really needed in exceptional cases. Understanding this, I believe, should eliminate the fear of “not receiving the medicine”, and at the same time - the question "how can we give to a pregnant woman an untested medication" - disappears by itself, because it is not the worst of evils, and it does not solve most of the problem. The size of the problem, suddenly, is decreased!
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Wow... thanks for the great amount of effort that you put into this reply! I will have a bonus SBI share for you at payout.
As to the actual comment, I fully agree with what you have posted... mostly, from a very logical point of view... there is no "problem", however... for some reason, most of society disagrees with that, and there is a problem... perhaps it is emotional and perhaps it is due to mores that are grounded in a different age or perspective.
I like the way that you argued your way to your conclusion... I tried to do a similar thing, but I'm not so skilled with these things! For me, the idea of getting information (to be able to intelligently act upon in the future) is something of paramount importance. Emotion and "morals" are useful... but don't really have the same power as informed and educated analysis for making decisions.
In many ways, this fear of consenting experimentation is a misplaced paternal protection of women and children... and in doing so, it removes the ability actually effectively treat any problems that come up during the pregnancy period.
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Greetings, Benji!
I have to say, in my opinion, as long as women give their consent, it should be legal. I mean, they could be part of some sort of cell-improving medicine (that sounds stupid, I know). Not all experimental drugs must cause damage, I think if a drug is thought to improve in some way unborn babies, mothers should decide if they want it for their fetus. It could result in an improvement for many future babies... Who knows?
I apologize if I offend someone.
Peace, buddies ;)
Not all drugs cause damage... that is true... there is also the other side, do the medicines do what they are supposed to do?... that is also something that we should have data on!
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Oh awesome, I won! Thanks so much I appreciate it.
That is a tough question. I agree that more data is better and definitly that consent is required. I think that pregnant women should be the last ones tested on in a trial series and hat they should definitly be informed on any and all potential side effects. The research should be reviewed by an ethics board and participants should probably be screened for vilnerabilities as well. For example, if an incentive is being offered (I.e. money) then an individuals situation should be considered. Are they engaging in the research and potentially putting a child (or fetus) at risk simply for the money? That's hard to judge...there are a lot of nuances to this. That's tough. Overall I'd say I'm for it if they are competent to make the decision for themselves and they consent after being fully informed.
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I think that in general, I do agree... we don't know enough about the efficacy during this still stage. So, it would be better to have better information and thus be able to make informed choices.
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I will never think it will be a good option to test medicines on pregnant women that is and will be dangerous
It is definitely risky, but without information on how medicines work... it could be even more risky with no knowledge!
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I don't think we need to drag this issue for long, truth be told, it's unethical to me to gather data at the expense of a new born baby, an innocent life form.
No, it is not right to use drugs on the pregnant mother, I believe now that there are other ways to test run drugs before giving it to original host, no matter how beneficial the drugs might be, we must know it's still at the expense of a pregnant woman. And a innocent baby.
Whilst I do have some sympathy for your position, unfortunately, we can't be sure that drugs that are tested on males or non-pregnant women behave as expected in pregnant women. Thus, it could be dangerous or useless to prescribe them based on testing on the wrong people! It is something that has happened with testing on men, and then not having the same results replicated exactly in women.
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Giving them different medicine during pregnancy is not recommended as it could harm the fetus thus giving a higher chance for a problem to occur
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Definitely true, but we don't even know for sure what the effects of current medicines are!
I think that the only time when a test may be possible is when the unborn child is in life danger and the untested drug could be the only way to save the child's life.
Of course, the parent must be fully aware of all possible complications.
Definitely a valid point of view... But essentially all existing medicine is 'untested' on the pregnant group due to fear of harming the unborn. This, by this logic... Nothing should be prescribed?
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In my opinion it is bad idea to test drugs on pergnant women. Anyway even if woman in need or she has hard life situation Noone don't know how it will affect on child.
So my position I'm against such experiments on people.
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It is an interesting position... However, if we consider that most medicines are untested directly on pregnant women then we actually are running on assumptions that may or may not be true. So by not testing, we can be causing harm through ignorance?
Hmm I think in such position you are right but anyway it's risky and unfortunately now we don't know way how to test medicines without straight testing on people 🤔
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