Memorial Day; A Good Day to discuss the difference between Soldiers, Warriors, and Thugs

in #chainbb-general7 years ago (edited)

A quick note before I start; I well understand that many consider American Servicemen (and Policemen) to be in the Thug category by default. It is your right to hold that opinion, and to share it on your own blog. For THIS post, and THIS day, I will not tolerate that opinion on this specific post - you will be flagged and muted for expressing that opinion here and now. Tomorrow, and on a different post, I do not censor. I have asked for courtesy, not obedience, and I will be discourteous to the best of my power to those that will not grant me that courtesy I have asked for in advance. I am a veteran, so understand why I would take offense. Thank You.

Who fights? Why do they fight?

Most men are not killers, or even fighters, by nature. Col. Dave Grossman, who has made a study of violence in both military and civilian environments, estimates that only about 3% of men are willing to kill by nature; how a culture "trains" a man can raise that percentage (pre WWII examples being Japan and Germany), but not to lower it.

How does that stack up to what we know historically? And how does that apply to how men fight...and kill.

Let's look at three basic outlooks; the Soldier, the Warrior, and the Thug.

Since this typology is a simplification, there can be some overlap depending on individual and circumstance, but looking at how a culture defines how wars are fought can answer some of these questions.

The Soldier - The Soldier is fighting more for an idea than for anything else.

Patriotism, nationalism, communism, and liberty are just a few ideas that soldiers fight for. The Soldier fights in organized systems and legality plays a major part in the way he fights more than morality does, although most cultures base their legal systems on their moral systems. You could also say that the Soldier fights for a government, and be right 90+% of the time...even guerilla fighters tend to fight for shadow governments. However, governments are usually organized around ideas...at least on the surface.

The idea can also be based on tribal affiliation, which is almost a crossover with The Warrior , who we will discuss in the next section.

The Soldier is motivated by the success of his idea. Between this and his specialization (in modern war) he may never even see the face of his enemy. Any mode of war that is legally permissible under his system will be used...and on the battlefield itself, any tactic he thinks he can get way with will be used to protect his own life and that of his comrades (of course, that is the behavior of us all in extremis).

Soldiers are specialized in function; the organization of their armies are based upon that. The Romans are the Classical example of this. The Romans based their patria, their government, on moral ideas derived from their tribal identity. Later on, they changed their State to allow other to join their tribe as fellow Romans.

Roman organization of tactics...

and and specialization in arms...

...are just some examples of their overall organization in service to the aims of State (Chain of command, communications and battlefield direction, etc, are other items we could look at)

We can look at Zulus and Mongols as on the definitive line between Soldier and Warrior. Both the Zulus and Mongols were highly organized and had advanced concepts of tactics...

The Mongols even used Psychological warfare and deception...

While the Zulu command and control model...

led to their conquest of the greater part of Southern Africa

However, both Mongols and Zulu retained more of a tribal oriented focus than a State. The Zulu WERE organizing into a tribal-based State as the Romans had done, but their eventual loss to the British ended the transition.

The Warrior - The motive of The Warrior is honor, as defined by his culture.

This is usually tribal in nature. Don't think that The Soldier does not concern himself with his honor, but depending on his personality and his culture, getting the mission done is a higher moral/honor priority than beating the enemy in a fact-to-face fight. OTOH, US Marines charged a jihadist position with bayonets, too. There is going to be a bit of Warrior in almost every combat-oriented Soldier!

For an excellent discussion of honor, see McKay's "Honor" series at the Art of Manliness or buy his book on Amazon.

Glory plays a large part in the motivation of The Warrior, as well.

The purpose of the Scalp Dance, for example, was so a warrior could display his victories to the tribe. Each victory was a service to the tribe. The Warrior proves his honor, and gains in societal stature, with success in battle. This leads to a tendency for Warriors to consider personal prowess and individual (honorable) fighting as their end goal in military preparation.

This leads to a fatal flaw in confrontations with Soldier based military systems:


From HBO's Rome

Organization beats individual prowess on a one to one basis. Warriors can overwhelm Soldiers if there are the numbers to do it, and a brilliant Warrior leader can beat an incompetent Soldier General, but these eat up men in Warrior cultures that don't outnumber Soldier societies.

The Thug - At the start of this article, I noted that only about 3% of men were naturally prepared to kill; that does not mean they want to kill.

From 2-3% of the general population are pyschopaths or sociopaths. This is not the same portion as the "natural born killers". But, outliers can overlap. In ANY military system, there will be those who use opportunities to satisfy their own bloodlust.

One might assume that these men would make good soldiers; one would be wrong:

many sociopaths are unable to overcome their more troublesome psychological tendencies long enough to excel in a military environment. Indeed, the failure to form emotional connections with peers or tolerate superiors makes sociopaths difficult to train, especially in an environment where each soldier's life literally depends on his or her teammates.
Do Sociopaths Make Better Soldiers?

But what about societal systems that encourage such behavior?

Let's look at ISIS. Due to the ideological nature and the total war mode of their system, we could classify them as Soldiers; due to the cultural military history of the Arabs, we could call them Warriors...

From my perspective, torturing folks to death publicly to instill terror, intentionally targeting civilians, and using children as weapons of war go past the bounds of civilized behavior. I would argue that Islam as a politico-religious ideology permits such behavior. Since there have been no fatwahs against the behavior altogether (there have been Islamic rulings against ISIS...but not against the policy ISIS is using), I have no problem believing my argument.

And when systems break down?

In 1968, American soldiers committed the same kind of atrocities at My Lai/Son My that ISIS commits now. Without going into excuse mode for the reasons that drove the men to do such a thing, we will look at a weak command structure that was (IMHO) the prime reason.

Every command in the general operation was vague, and as the orders were transmitted to lower levels of command, the orders became increasingly more targeted at civilian infrastructure. This may have been a case of junior officers complying with implied higher command, but the point is that no junior officer questioned or refused commands that had no military purpose. By the time orders were given at the line level, the soldiers believed they were

to destroy everything in the village that was "walking, crawling or growing"
/from the Wiki link

Even the soldiers who did not participate in the atrocity did nothing to stop it (two exceptions to this).

To make matters worse, the NCO's were inexperienced and a respected NCO who had the experience to know the massacre was wrong had been killed the previous week. The weak command structure further proved itself as such by covering up the murders.

While the United States military had set up a Soldier's system, complete with standards of war and a chain of command, the system was weak - the chain of command evaded responsibility, the soldiers were not fully trained in acceptable behavior, no one paid any attention to the state of mid of the troops. While there can be written books on the failure of the United States military to uphold it's duty to understand it's role and to effectively fight the Vietnam War, it is obvious that the system failed and created Thugs in some areas.

Conclusion

I don't want to give credence to the propaganda that Vietnam vets are thugs. In fact, those soldiers who served in civilian assistance programs (RF/PF, CAP, etc etc) often fell in love with Vietnam and it's people. Most Vietnam vets did honorable service, but it is the Thugs that make the front page.

  • Thugs are going to exist in any military system
    The Warrior Culture controls Thugs by rewarding honorable behavior (culturally defined)
    The Soldier's system controls Thugs by legality.
    Some cultures reward Thug activities.

  • It is a combination of individual personality, societal structure, military system, and sometimes a culture within a military, that can determine how any one man looks upon his part in the profession of arms; most men will go with the dominant culture, as they would with any nonmilitary aspect of the society.

Resources

Grossman, D. (2014). On Killing (Revised edition). Open Road Media.

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OK - an edit I need to add on the next rewrite

in the Rome clip, we can see the diversity of personality. The battle is a great example of organization against bravery...until the Warrior in Pullo breaks free of the formation and goes charging into the Gauls...out warrioring the Warriors.

You see, Pullo is a Warrior in the Soldier system...with a bit of Thug thrown in for good measure

First off, thank you for your service sir. I may be born and raised in the Philippines but I am always thankful for US veterans because of two reasons- first is the close ties between your country and mine and the assistance received in many different time in history, the most significant one is US intervention aiding the end of the 300plus years of Spanish colonization in our country. Secondly, we have friends and family who now share the same citizenship as yours, mainly because we live near a US-airforce base and intermarriages started the chain of smooth immigration of those wanting to fulfill their American dreams.

Appreciate your insights on this, and I agree that men in uniform serves to uphold and fight for the idealism that is rooting from their countries culture. Not an easy thing to do, as this requires a high level of commitment and passion to serve.

A great many nations, soldiers and warriors fight, all are in the belief of doing it for the greater good.

If we are to dream of a perfect world where there is world peace, i think it should start with the discussion, understanding and respecting the cultural differences of each.

One of the worst legacies that oblahblah left behind was the destruction of the the Philippines-America relationship.

I have a bit of bias in that statement. I was stationed at Subic Bay for a year, and I love the PI. Some of the prettiest ladies in the world.

that men in uniform serves to uphold and fight for the idealism that is rooting from their countries culture

I missed on this...there are LOTS of different reason for men to join up; idealism and sense of duty would be related to what I talked about in the post.

What I didn't add were they guys that join up as a job opportunity or adventure-seekers, etc.

The thing is a lot of folks like this get accultured to the military thought ;>

Thanks for the comment!

guys that join up as a job opportunity or adventure-seekers >> i suppose they wouldn't last , unless as you've said they get accultured to the military thought.

We live near a freeport zone, and with all due respect, despite the many good points you've discussed in your article, to this is where I agree most:

.............. I love the PI. Some of the prettiest ladies in the world.

Hahaha.

don't worry, I'm not flirting

The plane trip is too far ;>

Waaah! I didn't think you were, and I am not too.

no? you're not?...this old man is heartbroken

[insert sad smiley here]

teasing isn't flirting ;>

"this old man is heartbroken"

Now I feel guilty. Nah haha. Again a big thank you from this young lady =^_^=

de nada and good night ;)

Thank-you for your service. I'm also an Iraqi Freedom Veteran. While I'm no longer in favor of war, I have a deep respect for the men and women of the US Armed Forces and I cannot be thankful enough to those who have gone before us that made the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom.

I think that the public often vilifies soldiers when a war is not popular. People need to understand that soldiers, sailors, and Marines are among the most patriotic and brave citizens that any country has to offer.

Although they may not always agree with the cause or ideal that they are fighting for, that's irrelevant to a true warrior. A true warrior is doing what he/she is doing for love of their country, and more importantly, for their love of the man or woman to the right and left of them.

A country's citizens should NEVER take out their frustrations or hatred of a military action against their military. Warriors follow orders, no matter how difficult that may be. That's why it takes a special person to don the uniform of a professional warrior.

My thoughts and prayers are with every American who has made the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom.

I think that the public often vilifies soldiers when a war is not popular.

This is a point that I thought about putting into the article, especially in connection with the My Lai massacre; I left this out b/c it could have been seen as a justification for the crimes.

This affects soldiers (generic, not type) much more under Soldier cultures. Men who serve in republics or democracies are typically going to want the public's approval; when that approval isn't there for real or whether #fakenews says it's not there, it affects the moral and behavior of those men.

And yet the military is often a target of derision under democratic socieites.
See Kipling's Tommy

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

There are stupid dangerous orders that soldiers must obey b/c they don't know their role on the battlefield...
There are stupid , dangerous orders no soldier should obey (killing civilians unless you know for damn sure they are franc tireurs

I have loved military men and looking into their eyes as they describe combat is enough for me to understand that humanity has no place in these kind of exchanges. We should do everything in our power to disassociate the idea of honor from war. If you want to serve your country, you can become a teacher or help build roads. I hope you don't take offense to this, I'm not speaking about the character of those involved or much less calling them thugs but voicing some options for those with the drive to help others. I know many people end up in the military after some ideal, I know most people don't want to hurt others, but it's very important for me to say this because I don't ever want to look into the eyes of one of these people and see such pain again.

No, no offense.

I just don't think it's realistic.

It reflects a cognitive bias called projection bias, in which we assume that most people think just like us.

You seem like a caring, nice person, and you assume that everybody is like that.

Some people are scumbags who can only help this world by leaving it. It really doesn't matter what kind of socialization is put in place to "stop" this; it is natural in those people. Again, like the "natural born killers", you can increase the number of scumbags through socialization (eg. Detroit), but you can't go beneath the floor limit.

Soldiers and police are the answer to that, even though they usually get subverted by politicians...who themselves are usually scumbags ;>

Since this is a pretty flat rejection of your point, I wanted to let you know it's not intended to insult you.

I understand where you are coming from but,

Some people are scumbags who can only help this world by leaving it.

how do we determine who's a scumbag?

Certainly there are people who can endanger others and this shouldn't be ignored, but I've also known people joining the military because they think they will get respect out of it which is what worries me most. Have you read about the Standford Experiment?

I have read about it, and done a paper on it!

The experiment wasn't really an experiment (details in the posts)...

The Stanford Prison Experiment

Thanks for the courteous response; it's hard to do on those subjects that are important to us.

One of the reasons I love Steemit is that the profit motive keeps us playing nice!

I always enjoy learning new things about history, thanks for the post!

thanks for the comment!

Np, I liked your post and I like interacting with people!
Btw, I made this for memorialday:
https://steemit.com/food/@skytrex/the-perfect-memorial-day-bbq-menu

great post

glad you liked it! I got interrupted several times writing it, so I'll let it sit for a couple of months and rewrite it with additional data

Hi, I've seen some of your publications I'm going to follow, follow me and let's collaborate together =)

Upvoted.

Very detailed post. thanks for sharing.

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