Science, Religion, and the Limits of Testability

in #science6 years ago (edited)

Can science and religion coexist? It's a frequent topic of discussion in all sorts of circles, especially in certain contentious internet based ones. Flame wars between fundamentalists and atheists are a dime a dozen on the internet. Our society does seem to be becoming increasingly secular. So can the two continue to coexist in the long term? Yes, absolutely. It's not going to be friction-free or simple, but it will happen- just as it has for at least half a millennium so far, depending on what you assign the start date of science as- I personally put the start date back considerably farther than that.

Before we delve into the modern debate, we need to travel back a bit to the origins of secular society. Surprisingly, science didn't have that much to do with the rise of secularity. Instead, we can trace it back to the Protestant Reformation- at least here in the West. During the tumultuous events surrounding the Reformation, a number of key changes began to occur.

First of all, Protestants began attacking the idea that any one career or position in society is closer to God. They began to assault the idea of the Great Chain of Being, that all-pervasive religious hierarchy that permeated medieval Europe. This was all done in order to bring all people closer to God, but as these ideas became more and more enmeshed in battle against the old Christian hierarchies (I don't say Catholic, since it's a gross oversimplification to claim Reform was only part of Protestantism and Catholicism was purely in opposition- the story was much more complicated than that), more and more room began to open up for people to escape both the old hierarchies.

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A 1579 illustration of The Great Chain of Being. [Image source]

These new, post reform roles in European society were, in many ways, far more egalitarian than the old. (They would still be immensely stratified and rigid compared to today, of course.) Society began to become more civilized, with the power of the aristocrats and the wild festivals of the commoners being restrained more and more. This leveling of society granted somewhat more autonomy intellectually- all of a sudden, one's relationship to God was a personal one. Murder and violence became less acceptable, and ideas of the common good became more and more common. We can trace a pretty direct chain of descent from Protestant theology to many of the various humanist philosophies.

The most notable indicator that science wasn't what led to secularity (though it's certainly a powerful tool of secularity) is the immense role of religion in early science. Geology, for instance, arose almost entirely out of Christian theology in its early days- it is somewhat ironic that it's become such a battleground between theists and atheists. (Tellingly, however, there are absolutely tons of religious geologists, who are more than capable of being religious and empirically sound. One of my favorite and most respected professors was extremely religious, which didn't prevent her in the slightest from doing top-notch volcanological work.)

Another fantastic example is Galileo. There's a common narrative that Galileo's enemies were religious zealots in the Catholic Church, offended because he was defying what the Bible said. In reality, his fiercest opponents were other astronomers, who rejected the heliocentric idea for strictly scientific reasons. (Specifically, the lack of an observed stellar parallax.) The whole Galileo getting house arrest for the last years of his life bit? Well, his opponents basically sicced the Inquisition on him like an attack dog (science was extremely cutthroat back then). The Pope (a friend and fan of Galileo's) and the Jesuits, however, defended Galileo for years, shielding him from the Inquisition, only withdrawing their support when one of his books appeared to attack the Pope.

When did Christianity (and, to a usually lesser extent, other religions) become thought of as the enemies of science? Well, it would be incorrect to claim it had nothing to do with scientific discoveries that directly challenged non-metaphorical readings of religious texts- it certainly did. The repudiation of the Great Flood by geology was huge. Much of it, however, was a very deliberate choice. Various historians and writers began trying to depict science and religion as enemies, and it stuck. The idea that medieval people thought the Earth was flat, for instance, was invented wholesale as insults for the Protestants to aim at Catholics (and vice versa, to a much lesser extent) during the reformation. Certain 1800s historians then deliberately ran with those lies to spread the idea that all medieval people were idiots who thought the Earth was flat. It's a bizarre alliance of Protestants and rational humanists intent upon making the Middle Ages look bad. (Largely because medieval times were Catholic.) In reality, medieval people were well aware that the Earth was round, and even knew its circumference to an astonishing degree of accuracy. (In fact, they got that from the ancient Greeks.) So... a lot of the animosity was quite deliberately drummed up. Both sides get blame for that- there's not much like a good enemy to rally the troops.

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Depictions of a flat earth under a literal dome of stars, like the Flammarion Engraving depicted here (unknown artist) are fairly common in Medieval Europe. They seem, however, to be merely a common and stylish artistic embellishment from the time period. [Image source]

One of the most visible parts of the public discussion of the relationship between science and religion is in the form of testing specific religious claims, usually from the Bible or another religious texts. With some, it's pretty easy to do- it doesn't take much math to show that Noah's Ark wouldn't have nearly enough room for all the animals. The Great Flood itself runs counter to all the available geological evidence. Likewise a lot of other such claims. The problem there, however, is pretty simple: these arguments are only useful against literal interpretations of religious texts. Anyone willing to accept religious works as metaphorical or as potentially having inaccuracies will be highly resistant to these sorts of arguments. This, however, has led to science being used in an attempt to take down other religious claims- namely, and problematically, untestable claims.

There has never been any viable proposed tests towards, for instance, how to detect a soul or a deity. More importantly, however, are moral questions- there really isn't a way to test assertions of morality using science's empirical methods. What exactly makes a claim testable? In a nutshell, it's what philosopher Karl Popper referred to as falsifiability- if a claim can't potentially be proven false, it isn't science. This doesn't mean that a claim must be proved false to be scientific, that would be absurd. It means, instead, that there must be a way laid out in the claim itself that an experiment could potentially prove the claim wrong. There is no real way to answer a question on the order of "what is the Good Life" via falsifiable, empirical means. While science is probably the single most powerful intellectual tool since language itself, it's not all-powerful. There are strong limitations on what it can do, and defying those limitations results in bad science.

I frequently find myself in the role of defending religious people from other atheists much angrier than myself, largely because I get irritated at the misappropriation and misuse of science by said angry atheist types. These misuses have ranged from attempts to rebut non-testable religious claims to, once, the claim that the Big Bang is just scientists trying to suck up to religion. (Seriously, they believed in the Steady State Universe due to this conviction. It was... astonishing, to say the least.) Much of this derives from this odd idea that all religious people are fundamentally identical to fundamentalist Christians. That being said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't quite enjoy picking apart testable claims of religious fundamentalists myself when they're presented as testable. Still, though, I consider attempting to use the scientific method to test untestable claims to be one of the cardinal sins against science, and find myself much more concerned with those who would misuse science than those who oppose it.

As one last personal note- while I am personally atheist, I'm also Jewish. Not just in the cultural or ethnic sense (though I am in both regards), but actually a practicing Jew. Sound weird? Thanks to its status as an orthopraxic, rather than orthodoxic, religion, as well as a few theological loopholes, it's perfectly allowable, if a bit on the weird side. It's also presented absolutely zero obstacles towards me pursuing a career in science.


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It seems to me that Reformation was an expected reaction, or counterforce, to the Papacy develoving from an ecclesiastic institution to a more political quasi-national polity, in its territorial expansion across central Italian plains. The Papacy becoming a mere city-state among Lombardic fragmentation of Italy may be a paranoid reaction by the Church against their "Babylonian Captivity" in Avignon. The gold required for mercenary hirelings, rather than Papal extravagance, likely resulted in commercialization of indulgences. It may be that Peace of Westphalia was but a legal recognition of de facto Papal securalism, and by extension, nation-state secularism.

The idea of "personal" savior is not within the Christian holy texts, and its persistence on Protestant (text-only "theology) is strange and comical. The Bible literalists are usually those who are ignorant (willfully or otherwise) of context regarding genre specificity, history, and potential translational errors. They tend to selectively apply literalism to those texts that confirm their previously held misconceptions and biases.

Of course, the zealots of scientism also display obtuseness bordering on stupidity. Many of the scientism zealots tend to be those with cursory familiarity with biology, but entirely ignorant of philisophy, mathematics, or physics. They construct deductive arguments to support inductive process (science).

Truth is that which is inferred from facts. Facts alone is not truth, and truth can not be derived from false facts.

That's an interesting take on the Peace of Westphalia, I like it! I'd always interpreted it as a tacit recognition of the fact that direct religious conflict was proving entirely too destructive, as well as eroding morals and civil norms in Europe, something that ultimately neither side wanted. Also, just gotta say, I despise mercenaries. The expense of maintaining them and the difficulties controlling them have, in the long run, ultimately worked to the detriment of literally everyone who hired them ever. People being shocked by the Blackwater prison scandals in Iraq a few years back shouldn't be- that's utterly normal mercenary behavior. So blaming commercialization of indulgences more on them than Papal extravagance is a claim I'm extremely receptive to.

Christian theological debates are popcorn-eating good times for me. I basically understand the positions of the Christians on both sides of the personal savior debate, but I grew up in a religion that's basically all about keeping a contract we signed and then grousing about it a bunch and debating the exact letter of the law, so the whole savior thing has always been a bit odd to me. And yeah, I'm right with you on Bible literalists- like those who claim to be "objective" in science, it's usually just an excuse not to challenge their preconceptions or their status quo.

And don't get me started on scientism. I'm far less tolerant of it than I am Christian fundamentalism- while fundamentalism may largely reject science, scientism distorts it to its own, often non-scientific, ends, something I find far, far more objectionable.

I grew up in a religion that's basically all about keeping a contract we signed

I think the proper reading of the Christian holy texts would reveal a religion that is concerned with man's covenant relationship with God, as well. The Christians call their holy texts "new" testament, or covenant. I think the proper relationship with Christian deity would be identical to the Jewish perspective of covenant forming God with a people, rather than the concept of a "personal" savior.

Mmm...another synchronistic event, the topic of 'testability' being raised while I am busy writing a post in which it features as defining a boundary to what is truly believable - a boundary beyond which false knowledge can be staged easily by anyone who wishes to exploit the gullibility of whomever can be deceived in this manner. While synchronicity is hardly provable, it keeps taking me by surprise. One of those at times quite demonstrable recurring mystical events that, to my mind at least, defies both proof and understanding. I can demonstrate two different events of synchronicity, that manifested in different ways, occurring while busy writing this particular post, but I cannot prove either to not have been invoked by my own mental status.

The problem there, however, is pretty simple: these arguments are only useful against literal interpretations of religious texts.

So I think the real question might be "can true religiocity and a metaphorical reading of the Bible co-exist?"

I had a religious studies (theology, we called it) teacher who was a real preacher, came into class decked from head to toe with black robe, huge beard, and paunch. I always challenged his beliefs. When I asked him where did black people come from, given that Adam and Eve weren't black, he announced before the entire class that black people are the children of Satan and they weren't directly made from God, and cited some relevant Bible passage.

It's pretty clear to anyone reading the Bible and following the history of the Christian religion, that God created humans directly, not through natural selection. There's no two ways about that.

Either you are (Christian) religious and anti-science, or you are a hypocrite. I grew up in a time when real (Christian) religion (for some reason they call it fundamentalism now...it's just real religion!) was being taught in schools. They can't keep watering it down and claim it's the same thing. Otherwise the Bible is open to any interpretation, including voices telling you to kill.

Kierkegaard actually made a good argument of that, with his genius interpretation of the story of Abraham being willing to kill Isaac. That's what real faith is. Science is the total opposite of that.

Here's a falsifiable religious claim: free will. Free will can be proved to be non-existent both philosophically and scientifically.

Other concepts, like the soul you mentioned, depend on what one means by that. The soul's seat is the entire body, according to the Bible. There's no reason why cutting your hand doesn't affect your consciousness, but a heavy head accident does. That says that the brain is probably all there is to it. No soul.

I can't take anyone seriously who interprets the Bible metaphorically. So, Jesus performed metaphorical miracles? Or did he perform real miracles because science can't go back in time and test them? If the flood wasn't testable, would it be literal? Is there an objective criterion of what is literal and what metaphorical, other than the criterion that says "if science has falsified it, then it's metaphorical, because that's the only way we can keep believing in God"?

This is one of the smartest people I ever met. (I can find no Eng source that isn't a stub, but maybe you can just do a google translate if you're interested.) He's definitely the most elloquent person I ever heard speaking the Greek language, like our own Christopher Hitchens! He's a theologian and very progressive. His opinions (that there's no afterlife; that there's no heaven and hell; that Jesus promised he would raise the dead, literally, spoke about no afterlife; that Darwin is correct; that it's okay for gays to get married; etc.) was one of the reasons he was excommunicated from the Church of Cyprus. (Here's an entertaining list of press releases in Eng.) I guess he might've gotten some of his progressive opinions at Cambridge where he studied (btw he speaks 5 languages and can read in ancient Hebrew and Latin!) and got that Anglo-Saxon vibe we're more familiar with in the EU countries that have a bigger atheist population.

But I think our Church is more honest to its roots, and I think excommunicating him was the right decision, as his opinions are definitely against what the Bible says.

I think more modern approaches took a page from Darwin and they're like, "adapt!"

Let's see how long they can keep doing that before their head explodes from all the contradictions.

Well, as I mentioned in the post, it's been remarkably easy for Judaism to adapt to science, thanks to it being orthopraxic rather than orthodoxic. (Concerned with ritual and correct action rather than faith and correct dogma.) Taoism and Buddhism, as well as other Eastern orthopraxic religions (Judaism is somewhat unusual in being a Western orthopraxic religion), have also tended to have a remarkably easier time than Christianity in adapting to science's empirical claims. A big part of that, at least in Judaism, is an acknowledgement that our religious texts are largely passed down, recorded, and translated by flawed humans- and, in fact, the Talmud is a living document, constantly being added to, argued over, and changed by various rabbis. (Thanks to that, it's also one of the longest religious texts, at over 6,200 pages.) So your argument against taking metaphorical interpretations isn't entirely without value for Christianity, but if you tried to apply it to Judaism, or really any orthopraxic religion, well... it really would be without significant value for any of them.

And furthermore, the sheer diversity of Christian sects, even fundamentalist ones who believe that they're interpreting the bible literally, speaks to the sheer difficulty of the task. I don't, for instance, see any Christians stoning people for wearing mixed fibers or multicropping (both banned in Leviticus), because of the sheer hectic absurdity of not taking at least significant parts of the Bible as metaphorical, or at least making some very serious value judgements about the comparative importance of various passages, an activity not supported textually in the Bible- though many Christian sects make quite rational arguments that it is a supported activity, even if I disagree with them. You also see a growing preponderance of Prosperity Gospel sects among fundamentalist Christians, especially in America, who believe in a doctrine that directly contradicts Jesus' teachings. So... no, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to disdain metaphorical interpretations of the Bible to me.

Furthermore, thinking of fundamentalism as "real religion" is somewhat dismissive of the actual history of Christianity- fundamentalism is a very, very recent phenomena, dating back only a few short centuries, and largely starting in America, which is the reason America is the strongest seat of fundamentalism. Fundamentalism itself is a move away from Christian roots. Medieval Christian theologians, for instance, were quite open about treating much of the Bible as strictly metaphorical. Want the real old time Christian religion? Become Coptic.

If you believe that the soul is akin to the mind, then yes, your argument works. If one believes that the soul is, instead, something immanent, sublime, and ultimately uncapturable by language, then it readily escapes your argument. (I should note I don't believe in souls, but I also recognize that I'm a remarkably literal and concrete person, so I tend to give others a lot of leeway in regards to beliefs like this- I have trouble with rhetorical questions and figures of speech, I can be so literal. It'd be unreasonable and rude to demand others interact with me on that level a lot of the time.)

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You can even move on from the whole Science vs. Christianity debate, which you were mostly talking about. Islam was promoting science very much, so where the Greek and Roman as well as early Indoeuropean religions. Thus you are right in saying: yes they already co-exist. Ironically the rift between science and religion seems to become bigger today. I know many Christians who refuse to accept that there are psychological disorders, just as an example. This debate probably will never end. Good post. Cheers!

They can co-exist in a human head. But try writing it into code :P

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Interesting read!
I would suggest looking up Answers In Genesis if you want scientific proof for creation and things of that nature. Science and Christianity go hand in hand. :)

Science and Judaism go even better together, so I'll pass- especially since I grew up in Kansas, and have been exposed to Answers in Genesis plenty. Not impressed.

Haha well, to each their own. ;)

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Science and religion exists like a man and its shadow...

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