The Main Reason I (and my witness @l0k1 thereby) are Anti-Self-Voting

I
was trying to explain this to someone this evening, and I discussed how under Equity and Ancient Jewish law (such as was in operation for 9000 years in the settlement of Jericho), where a rigid, simple to understand rule could succeed in suppressing even a small amount of bad behaviour.
A Judge would defer to such a law and not need to tease apart fiddly conditionals, if such a rule could be applied to the benefit of the society as a whole, even as little a reduction in the incidence of bad behaviour as 2% - cost less than the expense of employing an expensive to train judge.
Blockchains also have rules in them that precisely function as laws. One of the things that has been noted by some, such as @ats-david - is that Hard Fork 19 (and several preceding hard forks) removed a lot of the simple, rule-based defences against bad behaviour.
Self Voting, as I have mentioned previously, was only profitable for Whales before. Now everyone can do it. I submit that HF19 has simply taken this out of the hallowed halls of top SP holders, and put this tool into everyone's hands. We can't anymore argue that simple stake is a valid criteria for judging the good behaviour of a user, now that we see this power accessible to all.
But it is Whales whose one click reward gets everyone's attention.
Not only that, I would submit that the fact that you can vote upon your own witness, and, yes, since I now technically have two accounts, one I post with and one for witness, that I can even unduly influence the witness schedule, to my also, easy, one click direct profit, and not only that, to the ability to veto, or not, bad changes in the rules. Consider what happens if I patiently build my SP to over 1 million. My vote on my own witness would be equal to 2000 minnow accounts.
If a simple rule can eliminate bad behaviour, and conserve the function of judgement for complex situations, such a rule is better in force, than not.
As @pfunk, and several 'responsible' steemians have said to me, they believe that allowing direct voting is important, to facilitate their activities in moderating behaviour of users.
The problem is, you cannot easily draw any line between blanket permission and conditional permission, with a simple algorithm. Then, you can also turn another argument around, that is also a common justification for allowing self voting:
"But people will just make a new account and self vote via proxy."
Firstly, it should be obvious that such an act is instantly recognisable as taking privileges.
Secondly, by requiring an extra hoop to jump through, we create necessary behaviours that also make automated detection of this mischief cheaper. Consider the fact that somewhere along the line, to use that reward, as vote power, one will by necessity create a chain of links between one account and another, which can be if not 100% confidence, then still very high confidence, automatically detected, with an algorithm.
Plus it makes this method of abusing the system of allocating rewards more expensive in terms of knowledge and attention, even if you can automate this with a two or three click installer of a script, you still have to keep the computer running, or activate the application to do this for you.
Can you also then argue with a straight face, that the greedy for rewards self voting 'miner of steem', as these people amount to (and yes, we are collating the publicly available data proving your bad behaviour), is becoming of wise and judicious individuals with the quality of patience in their character?
By and large, the answer is No
The most egregious self vote self-rewarders, are just like the rats pressing the lever for the little pile of cocaine to sniff at.
I have also, therefore, suggested that all posts, not just root posts, be configured for a default 100% Steem Power reward. In fact, this is another possible, and very small rule change for the blockchain consensus logic, that would defeat the typically impatient mentality of the self-voting users, who take advantage of the shortcut to getting upvotes that these bad rules allow.
I would suggest that comments, which are a special subset of original posts (root posts, aka Posts) should not have a liquid rewards payout. Either declined, or 100% power up. All of the self-voting superstars we have discovered so far in #project-smackdown, are exploiting the fact that all comments are by default in all interfaces, set to 50/50 rewards.
(The #steem-coop will be generating open source analytics scripts to determine if there is a correlation between the self-upvoting and the flow of SBD, a week later, to known exchange accounts, such as @poloniex @bittrex @blocktradse and @shapeshift)...
Reward Pool Rape can be quantified...
You can change this, with specially formed variants of the post transaction for comments. But again, another example of how a sensible default raises the bar and can have an outsized beneficial effect in the system.
I am not talking out of my hat with this, you can go read some of Bruce Schneier's work on security systems, and other security oriented operating systems like OpenBSD, and this is also becoming widely practiced even in companies like Microsoft and Google - that if you can make a simple rule that blocks easy exploits, that the benefit exceeds the times when 'responsible people' might better produce security, by being able to bypass this rule.
Note that I also argue that 'resteeming' via alt accounts is not a violation of the social contract. I worked long and hard to build a following with the @l0k1 account. This is something that I earned by playing the game honestly, and this is one thing you cannot easily buy, in the steem blockchain ruleset.
Update:
Once again the illustrious @dang007 has flagged my post. The evidence condemning their character is becoming pretty substantial now, and it's only going to highlight this post to the followers of @l0k1, which I have also resteemed my own post (since l0k1 is my account, and the legacy of my many many months of work building a fanbase).
Quick money cannot beat reputation in this game system, @dang007 You are signing the warrant that will see every one of your posts suppressed by a negative reputation.
Moar updatez
And new the spectacle continues, another whale upvoted this post, and now @dang007 has burned even more of their VP by removing and re-adding a new, more souped up flag. Note that the dang account has very little more reputation than this 7 day old @elfspice account. They can take all the rewards away, and I frankly don't give a damn about that. But the flag is not gonna bury my profile in a million years.
I disagree. Self-voting is just fine. The essential is the quality of the content. Not if a person is self voting or not.
Problem is that 'quality' is a subjective judgement, and a single self vote, or a self vote, plus a pile of trailers following it, means zero about quality, because I strongly disagree with your judgement of $1.59 value for this comment of some 13 words, which said absolutely nothing.
So I will flag it with this and my other account. Right? That's ok for me to do, isn't it?
By flagging people who buy stake to gain visibility (self vote) you are undermining the incentive to get stake. As a stake holder who would like people to power up more and not less I disapprove of your actions.
Sure, be my guest.
Buying steem to raise your visibility. Ever noticed that 'promoted' tab? That one does the opposite of a self vote.
To promote yourself, AND get paid for doing it, that's having your cake, and eating it to. It is abuse of the voting mechanism.
I'll stop using my accounts to do these flags as of now. Party is over, sorry. You can keep it up if you like. You seem to think the only reason to have steem is to silence your critics and paint some marker upon your work that tells everyone else you have a self esteem problem and a narcissistic personality disorder.
Self votes on comments are for example a very valuable tool to bump it up higher in the list to gain visibility. This is a good reason for users to get SP. I want more reasons to get SP not less.
Remember it takes a lot of SP to get any significant payouts. You don't have to hate people who self-vote. You are hurting the system if that is your main criteria for flagging.
I think you clearly explained that you feel the rules now make your self vote profitable. I am not going to check your SP holdings, as I feel it's nunamybidness, but I suspect that your vote is probably more valuable to you when it increases the power of the network effect regarding your account, i.e. voted for someone else.
You are a coder, and better understand the guts of Steemit than I. I understand logic, however, so feel competent to comment on those logical operations, although, as I have not read the code (cuz it'd be like trying to read Bulgarian for me =p) I may not be aware of all the operations.
I suspect that a great deal of the concentration of SP in a small number of accounts is caused by only two logical 'laws' in the code. One is the weighting of VP by SP. Were VP equal, disregarding speculations about whether people would continue to hold Steem, there would be no, or only a very small, reason to self vote.
The second relevant 'law' is that of post timing, and how curation rewards are doled out. I have witnessed this being intentionally abused in order to mine SP from the pool. An author sure to trend is in chat regularly with a select group of similar authors. As these accounts hold significant SP, they each wield substantial VP.
By understanding how curation rewards are calculated (the specifics of which have remained unimportant to me, as I am unconcerned with building my SP), which is HUGELY impacted by time, such that almost all curation rewards are divvied up between curators that vote after a certain waiting period, and before those rewards are dramatically reduced, this collusion can capture almost 100% of the curation rewards for a given post, while propelling the author's post onto the trending page.
They can then do this for another author in their group, and so on, until their daily VP is exhausted, and then do it again the next day.
I submit that this also can be detected via the algorithms you could employ, although it is more complex. The repetitive nature of such collusion is probably simple to detect with the tools you use to detect the most abusive self voters.
I will note that, because of the way I use Steemit, mostly as a means of ingesting content, and entering debate, rather than as a way of simply publishing a blog, I get about 66% of my rewards from curation (so saith steemdb).
So curation rewards, particularly if well timed by collusion, are substantial. Further, equally weighting VP eliminates the financial motivation to so collude, and would return the purpose of the rewards pool to than intended by the devs (according to the white paper), rewarding content creators - NOT providing an additional profit motive for holding SP, as some have argued (this is argued against in the white paper).
Whaddya think?
Edit: spelling and additional info.
I think you bring up valid points and of course I like how you have taken what I said, and then extended and expanded and thereby reinforced the logic that I am using in my argumentation. I will digest this further, but I would suspect you could get a bit of rewards by posting a more formalised expression of these ideas in a new post.
Thanks! I really don't care much about my personal rewards (although I'm not agin' em), I just do thrive on reading good posts (like this one) and entering dialogue. It's how I learn stuff I don't know.
Thanks for teaching =)
If you can't vote for yourself why vote
If you payed money into this investment offer why not take your dividends?
There's a couple good reasons not to self vote. The first is that curation was designed to provide rewards to content creators, not dividends to investors. The white paper clearly states how such financial manipulation is a threat to the platform.
The second is that votes are more valuable as a means of attracting a community than they are of providing dividends, if you aren't so loaded with SP that the community can't compete with your ability to mine rewards from the pool.
My self votes are worth a nickel or so. Each follower I attract to my postings has a monetary value far in excess of that, because all of them have votes, and most of them have votes that are worth more than mine.
But these are merely financial incentives, and Steemit is a social media platform, not a capital market. The real benefits of Steemit aren't financial at all, but leverage the rewards system to create a robust market for ideas and community interactions.
Just like money is a veil behind which real wealth is obscured (those goods and services which determine quality of life), so rewards are but means of creating robust and diverse communities that can deliver relevant ideas and mechanisms of enhancing our understanding of the world, and provide opportunities to take action based on that understanding in concert with like minded allies.
Capital gains from price appreciation in Steem is a direct result of Steemit successfully growing and creating that community, and this mechanism, time tested and proven to work for other cryptocurrencies like BTC, for example, is also far more potential of profit than mining rewards.
Steem has recently lost a lot of value, seemingly in concert with cryptocurrencies generally, rather than for reasons specific to it. It's about $1 presently. BTC is over $2k. If Steem appreciates to even 1% of BTC, investors in Steem stand to achieve a gain of over 20000%.
For reasons, I think Steem is a better currency than BTC, and I am far more bullish than that in the long term. However, even at that low price, investors are far more rewarded by capital gains through the traditional price appreciation mechanism than through manipulating curation to mine the rewards pool.
The fact that you can mine the pool today with self votes, and that there is no guarantee of price appreciation, is a factor promoting self votes presently. However, that rewards pool mining is a direct attack on Steemit's ability to produce that price appreciation in Steem, and this should be viewed as a threat to capital gains, and strongly opposed by investors that desire those gains.
That there isn't an outcry against rewards pool mining by whales is valuable information regarding whether they view Steemit as pump and dump scheme, or a long term driver of price appreciation in Steem, imho.
Here's a metaphor for mining the rewards pool of Steemit in terms of capital gains. If stock investors purchase stock in a broom manufacturing company and then claim the change those brooms sweep up after they're sold, sales of those brooms is going to be negatively impacted by this 'dividend' mechanism.
There's exactly the same impact on Steem price from financial manipulation of curation that you would expect to see the broom companies stock price experience in that situation.
Thanks for the mention. I appreciate that. But it should be noted that I'm not for any blanket policing of self-voting and taking it a step further to police voting on possible alt accounts.
If there's a specific case of abuse, then by all means, look into it to determine if there's an actual problem. But blanket countering, shaming, or digging for "links" between accounts is counterproductive and can do more harm than good.
Nobody can determine whether a vote on another account is for a friend or family member. If someone votes for the same person every day, does that mean they are a friend, relative, or a sock puppet? Are we just to assume the worst?
And should all self-voting be opposed? Is it an abuse of the system to vote on your one post per week? On one or two comments per day? What if you're upvoting 100 other posts every day?
I prefer handling this at the protocol level as much as possible. Take human subjectivity out of it and create the abuse-mitigation that is "fair" and can scale to millions of accounts instead of leaving it in the hands of a few people and their bots.
It is not possible to advocate a position, and still have the respect of the community, while condoning the violation of that position.
It is precisely the elimination of the 'low hanging fruit' that is addressed and targeted by this current project. I think it says a rather large amount about it being the correct position that the most egregious self voter, is like a mosquito with zero reputation kick to their giant voting power, and so quick to act without considering more than 5 minutes into the future about what happens next.
We discussed the option of such as a cumulative or windowed averaging that allows say, 10%, 20% or some arbitrary line between. If the protocol needs self voting, a rational, 100% applicable defence must exist, or you create a slippery slope where the very same rationale gives you 50,000 different possibilities and no way to agree.
But if, instead, we narrow our criteria so that if it cannot be implemented by a bot, but rather, a simple, universal rule, such as 'may not directly vote upon own content', you see that 'bypassing it with alts' does not violate this simple, automatic rule!
A much simpler ruleset than the cumulative average arbitrary, arbitration-dependent human-dependent and impossible to standardise way of mitigating bad behaviour.
I don't even have to search far to show you an example of how self upvoting to 'alter the sequence of comments' cannot be a justification here: https://steemit.com/steemit/@holoz0r/steemit-licence-plates-are-finally-here
'Lol awesome', voted up to nearly $12?
When I read the part about detecting "linked accounts" I was also concerned. I have a follower who I don't even follow who consistently upvotes every single one of my posts within the first 10 minutes. It's not at all a collusion, I don't even know who he is beyond a username.
I agree, I think the worst is when someone has every comment self-upvoted, upped by minowsupport and by booster. It just makes the comments look like a mess and i've seen people comment on my posts where they upvoted their own comment, and not my post, annnd tell me to follow them. It's gotten pretty bad tbh.
Absolutely correct
Hey, this post has definitely got me thinking.
I personally have stopped upvoting my own posts and comments, focusing only on rewarding others with my meager 10 votes per day. However, wouldn't it be better if people just decided on their own to stop upvoting for those who upvote themselves, rather than "passing a law" (code) that would make it impossible for them to vote for themselves? More like in reality, where we can all "vote with our feet/our wallets"? Of course, educating the "masses" is never easy and rarely effective, but I remember hearing a long time ago that "Virtue cannot exist in a vacuum," meaning we cannot force people to "do the right thing." Even if we succeed, the simple fact that they were forced means that they did not personally choose to do what's right and, therefore, deserve no applause for being "moral" or "ethical."
My other thought (if perhaps contradictory to the above statement) is that, if upvoting oneself is wrong, then why is it ok to buy steem to pump up one's own accounts, when that clearly has nothing to do with other users' deciding who to vote for? I have been building up my account very slowly and deliberately, taking my "profit" from those who upvote me and investing it in SP. The fact that, were I a rich man, I would be able to just buy "influence" somehow seems more egregious than simply upvoting oneself.
Just some thoughts.
I am starting to lean towards a more amoral presentation of the idea. However, I think universal moral principles still have their uses. I live by them, for one.
If it was harder to self vote, less people would do it. Can you offer an argument that contradicts this?
Not at all. But what about my points concerning buying steem and "Virtue cannot exist in a vacuum"?
Virtue depends on axiomatic truth. The two can't be separated.
No, it is my own argument, that raising the difficulty eliminates at least 70-80%, because you have to compound that witht the high proportion of narcissistic personality disorder and average intelligence.
Sadistic, Intelligent, and Dangerous. The I is the most important factor.
Unlike politicians and their dumb 'laws', the rules of the blockchain are immutable. This is what makes the technology so brilliant.
People can still, under such a regime, own two accounts, and apply each accounts money makers to their fluid elimination tubes. if they must. No rule against it, and it can't be enforced on a blockchain anyway. But over 70% who would just 'self upvote because the other guy will' or 'cos it's there, like a big fart button'... They just won't bother.
According to the data we have so far, this wipes out pretty much 95% of the bad behaviour, in one fell swoop.
Would they 'run away because they can't cause friction to their pleasure organs? Who cares? Who wants this kind of people around anyway?
Humans specifically developed stiff backs that don't permit oral cleaning of the lower parts. For a reason. Otherwise, why would we talk to each other anymore?
:D Good points, elf!
As yet I have tried to find a balance of such in the "self upvote" I have started to decline the "auto upvote" on my new posts. If I feel that a post has gotten unusually low attention, yet it is valuable, after at least 30 minutes I will usually upvote it and use "booster". I'm debating the ethics of this.
I have stopped upvoting my own comments. I upvote other's comments if I feel they are more useful than the ones above them in a comment chain.
I would be in full support of a comments earnings being 100% Power Up earnings. I feel this would be an excellent way to increase my investment in Steemit.
Personally, I want to see everyone on Steemit succeed. The catch 22 is that I would also like to see everyone on Steemit find their groove and post quality upvote worthy content.
I have trouble with the fact that you can buy influence on Steemit. As a fairly poor person who has to literally earn every penny, it is disparaging that a troll can drop a quick $5k-$10k into Steemit and instantly start making hundreds of dollars from their first self upvoted post.
There are two things I feel should be reputation based;
FLAGS
No one with a reputation under 45 should be able to flag a post. The reputation score means you consistently upvote good content and your content is consistently upvoted, therefore you know what the community values and you have demonstrated support of that value.
UPVOTES
I understand that upvote values increase with mVEST. I feel that BOTH mVEST and reputation should be a factor in the value of an upvote. This would help to prevent upvote abusers from gaming the system by requiring high quality community participation to give high powered votes.
That's my

The effect of SP and Reputation are independent. This is the reason why this @dang007 despite having some million SP, can't put a ding in l0k1's 69.8 reputation score. I am not sure of the ratio, but it is probably logarithmic. Each extra number upwards takes 10 or 100x as many upvotes, from some amount of reputation score, to have an effect. In fact, when l0k1 downvotes an account with a low Rep like even as high as 50, it is similar in its result on reputation as a million SP is against anything.
The reputation score is on the chain, but it does not have an impact on anything except as a mechanism to enable an interface to suppress the appearance of posts, based on well respected, established accounts with high Reputation, or a sufficient cumulative number of such accounts whose total score adds to an equivalent amount, as to SP, where l0k1's rep behaves towards the reputation of other accounts.
The first time @dang007 flagged one of my posts, one of our allies came in directly with an upvote to counter it. For the sake of interest, I wanted to see what would happen if for the second incident, nobody inside the #steem-coop, or even curious bystanders, brought the necessary counter. Sure enough, it came, and now the posts are even more visible for having flags, and still a substantial reward after some seriously fantastical downvotes on it. *Noticing it reappear, @dang007 has now removed, and then re-added a stronger flag to again bury the post. To do any real damage to my accounts, he will need to persuade a respected member of the community to flag my posts. For fun, I have posted a provocation about this:
https://steemit.com/crypto/@dang007/all-the-coins-are-so-cheap-im-thinking-of-getting-more#@elfspice/re-dang007-all-the-coins-are-so-cheap-im-thinking-of-getting-more-20170714t064645032z

I am not sure there is any problem that needs fixing, with the reputation system. I think it has demonstrated directly this last 24 hours how well it actually does work.
That's an amusing way to poke the bear LOL
My suggestion for using reputation the way I described was a way to prevent "buy a troll" tactics. Since reputation can't be bought (I think) , it helps to level the playing field a bit for new users who can't afford to buy voting power.
Yup, I have been talking with the good folk in #steem-coop and I realised that we should probably be campaigning to have flagging (rep smackdown) and downvote (reward smackdown) separated. Others have campaigned for this, but I believe that I have the operational strategy and tactics to make this happen faster. Being outrageously bold is the central pillar of my methodology, hence #steempunk
Yes, your reputation can be sold, by selling your account. But you can't buy it any other way.
If you invest into this platform why not take your dividends?
This is a simple mining operation
The wales just take more than there share
And they take the money from the thousands of inactive acounts every day
This argument fails because it is not possible to decide by an algorithm (saving human judgement-labor). The problem we have now is that many people see a problem, judging it, and consuming a lot of brain-power deciding if they are for or against.
We all agree that you can just make two accounts, and run it in a circle. This is a step higher in complexity to the simple direct self vote. Since the point of votes, is to express your approval, or disapproval, of other people's work, this self vote is not information, it is pure entropy, and typically, the actual words in the post are equally meaningless.
We are not trying to 'end all circle jerks'. Just direct self voting, right now. We pick our battles, and we also are getting better at pointing that out.
I invest my TIME in this platform, and my BRAIN works hard to devise new ideas to post and maybe attract new users.
These self voters are taking rewards away from people who are working to attract votes.
Go back and read the whole post again and find a point that I didn't already knock down, your argument is already nullified by what I posted in this post. If you really give it a go and try to prove me wrong, with my own words, or you can't see how what I said relates to your argument, maybe I will spend my brain power to find a new way to explain it.
Sometimes on a busy day like today when I don't have time to search out good content I will go throughout and Upvote all my past posts because I don't want to waste my voting power. I also will randomly Upvote posts from the people I follow. Probably not the best strategy but it's what I do.
Basically, the reason is 'because you so easily can'. Isn't it.
Yeah lol. If it wasn't available I wouldn't be upset at all. Just what I do on my busy days. When at home and able I always search out the best posts in my opinion and leave some feedback and Upvote. I've been known to submit other people's posts to curators as well.
Correct