Is the distinction of art & science hurting the education system?

I apologize if the title of the post seems controversial, but ever since @sweetpea put the idea of writing a post for #steemiteducation this was the first thing that came to mind (because I really need some answer to this question). And I hope if you manage to survive to the end of the post that you'll want to find some answers yourself as well.

I have written a short post about the apparent need for us to separate art & science in my first days on steemit:
https://steemit.com/art/@plushzilla/why-do-we-see-art-and-science-as-two-separate-disciplines

Unfortunately having a grand total of 0 followers and posting this under the tags of #art, #science and #philosophy didn't attract much attention, but I am nothing if not a persistence person.

As someone who has dabbled in the science (science/IT major) and art (not professionally), I find it impossible to say whether there is a difference or not because I can't find any evidence or information for this, as I tried in my second post about this topic (referencing the definitions provided in the dictionary):
https://steemit.com/art/@plushzilla/still-looking-for-answers-the-need-to-separate-art-and-science

And still no answer...

But I feel compelled to raise this question again, but this time in a different forum because I have a theory that if we can remove the distinction between art and science then there is a chance for the education system to return to a more holistic view about the importance and value of education. I found this to be the experience when I was teaching a course in a relatively new field (UX Design), and the expectation that the course should provide all the skills required to tick boxes at a job interview really puts pressure on the educators and students to meet the market demand. This creates an environment not conduce to teaching or learning, despite the best intentions of teachers and students.

So here I present this case to you not as a parent or educator, but simply as someone who has asked the question and received no answers from artists, scientist, educators, parents and even philosophers that I have approached outside of steemit. I hope that I can find some answers here with your help.

Now let me explain why I think removing the distinction between art and science will make some difference.

If there's something we are guilty of doing as a society in general, it is to simply follow and crowd and participate in group think without really understanding or believing in what we are doing (and we are not immune from it on steemit, judging by recent commentaries and comments to various posts). And if the current generation of graduates coming out of the education system or the way that modern work is being structured provides any indication, it is that we are quickly being sorted into different boxes, silos and stereotypes ready to keep the machines moving along until the robots take over.

One of the topical issues at the moment regarding our society is the redefinition of gender, where we moved on from the traditional view of Men from Mars and Women from Venus to LGBT (then LGBTQI) and who knows if it will change again? Is it not better to look at gender as something that doesn't need to be defined specifically and just respect everyone's right be express their sexuality and sexual preferences without defining whether it fits with your perception or mine? I don't know what happened to the controversial experiments of parents raising their children without specifically indoctrinating ideas about what a 'boy' or 'girl' should or should not like (to play with, to dress like, etc.), but I know friends that feel like if they don't fit into one of the boxes that you can tick on a form then you don't belong anywhere, and I don't think that is a sign of a tolerant or inclusive society.

Okay, maybe we should look at something less controversial instead. Have you wondered what makes a book fiction or non-fiction?
https://steemit.com/books/@plushzilla/what-makes-a-book-fiction-non-fiction

Or have you considered what a 'good' or 'bad' movie is?
https://steemit.com/book/@plushzilla/what-a-good-or-bad-movie-book-song-really-means

My point is that when we create arbitrary (or even well defined) ways to think about something, we put a limitation on how people should think or behave. Of course, there are societal norms that we should adhere to in terms of being nice to your neighbours, don't break any laws, pay your taxes (@larkenrose has an interesting view about this) but other than that what benefits do we achieve by telling our children how they should think? Take the story of the inspirational magician Mahdi Gilbert, who was born without no hands but as a child he had the dream of becoming a magician one day (https://mahdithemagician.com/). If he had given up on the fact that there were no magic tricks designed for people without the use of their hands and did not challenge what is or isn't possible, then we wouldn't have the wonderful story about how he has inspired many more people with perceived disabilities to also follow their dreams. The interesting thing is that he never really saw this as a disability - he recognized an opportunity to pioneer something that was unique to him and that the pursuit of this dream would allow him to reach his potential.

I struggled for a long time coming to terms during my stint in the education system, not because I didn't see the purpose of getting an education, but what the education system wanted me to think about society. That doctors were good people who knew what they were doing, that lawyers upheld the law and justice no matter the situation, the artists and craftsmen struggled on the street or sell out when they become famous, etc., etc. As I left the education system (but continued my journey of learning), I wondered why the purpose of the education system isn't to help people find a way to reach their potential but instead a series of tests and exams telling you what you can and can't do in life. In my professional career as a consultant I came to see that the real world is built around conventions and limitations not because it is the best thing for everyone, but because it is the best thing for the people that get to have that say. So I do believe it is true that you can tell how civilized a society is by the people that are the most disadvantaged and how they live, and whether we provide the opportunity for everyone to reach their potential (if they choose to).

Sorry for taking you on such a long way to get to my original point. But here's the question: what make something that we do the arts or the sciences? Consider some of these points:

  • Does being a scientist mean that you can't be creative? Then where do the technological innovations come from?
  • Does being a scientist mean that you have to be good at maths and calculations?
  • Does being an artist mean that you will be poor? Being an artist and being an entrepreneur/business person are different things.
  • Does being an artist mean that you have to be good at drawing or play an instrument?

I think these are the perceptions that parents and students have that limits the ability for our education system to help people reach their potential. I think that when we have defined our interest and passion then it is important to spend some time specializing in something, which we can give various names to like physics, chemistry, opera or whatever you want to pursue, but why call it art or science?

The way we indoctrinate ideas about what art and science is at a very young age (the same way we define what gender is, what is fitness is, what healthy is, what beauty is) then we reduce any chance for our children to come to their own understanding about what it means to them. Inevitably some of them will go through the process of breaking down those barriers/perceptions because they feel confined by them (the same way the gender issue is still being played out in many developed and first world economies), but I would argue that it is largely inhibitory and creates niches where the benefit of collaboration and innovation becomes lost in trying to maintain its identity.

Do you agree in principle of removing the distinction between art & science in early childhood education as a parent or educator? Do you think that we end up training too many scientists that are not allowed to think outside the box and too many artists that suffer for their art unnecessarily? I have seen many of them use steemit to express their frustration, especially around the value of their work not being recognized because it doesn't fit in with how things work in their day job, career and their lifestyle. I realize that education systems don't change (and can't change) overnight, but I also don't see the amount of funding (which seems to be less than what it should) going into changes that will have long term impact unless we challenge the way we think about education and what it really means.

And while I recognize that this might not be the solution, I do hope that this is a valid question that will lead to a better solution for parents and educators.

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I think a fundamental difference between art and science is that science must be verifiable. Art can be literally anything at all, but science needs to adhere to strict rules in order to advance itself. Of course many things that people label science are actually art (see nanoputians), but I think it is important to distinguish science so that it retains the standards it currently has.

Hi @curtiscolwell, thanks for taking the time to read through the post and make a comment because every feedback I get helps me to further clarify my thoughts. You bring up an interesting point about science needing to be verifiable. As a former scientist I see many recent debate about the reproducibility of many experiments being questioned, which is to say that the process used to verify and review those papers are not quite as verifiable as one might assume. Interestingly enough, proving the provenance of a piece of artwork underpins a large part of the process involved in auction and secondary art markets, but it is also not free from the occasional cases of fraud. But the point I want to raise with you is this: what part of science do you believe needs to be verified (and to whom), and why is this not necessary in art? Is science the process, the end result or the purpose (or all three) and does it not apply to art?

Oh, and I just read about the nanoputians. It seems like an interesting blend of art and science to me because some people will see it more as art and others more as science, which means it must have some proportion of each (whatever they think art or science should be). I think they are the same thing but I don't have a word for what art + science equals :p

Well, I guess I would say that science is trying to learn something about the universe and its laws. To be science you need to have a testable hypothesis that you can disprove. An example would be something like gravity. No one has thus far disproved the hypothesis of gravity. Every time you let go of something, it falls towards the earth. Art has none of this. You can only learn about the artist or yourself. You won't learn about the nature of the universe.

I guess nature is an interesting intersection between art and science then. There are also some things that science can't quite measure or test, but that doesn't mean it is something that cannot be proven. And people also form part of the universe so certainly learning about an artist or oneself is part of learning about the nature of the universe?

I totally read this... and I read your other links.

But... it's soooooooo long, I didn't know how to respond. I feel like this is a conversation, rather than a question.

But, if I had to be concise (edit to add: didn't end up concise): Art is Science and Science is Art. I don't think that's been disputed. I DO see the issue of them being 'different' at a school level (young).

But... I feel like an ART CLASS and a SCIENCE CLASS would be COMPLETELY different... so with that thought- they SHOULD be separate.

I do see your point that this could potentially hurt some who simply don't have an understanding of deep concepts. But... that's a Darwinism. I mean, YOU figured it out. I figured it out. Most everyone I speak with understands this... it's just a few (yes, less educated) that won't ever get it.

Advice: Do what you can and communicate with others. Make sure all who YOU come in contact with understand the similarities AND differences of these two... "word boxes".

I could literally go on forever. I could hit each point. But it's taken me two days just to feel like I could comment a little.

Your post on non-fiction/fiction is really good.
In response to that: I think that humans have some kind of weird connection to the ... well, EVERYTHING. This means, that (to me) fiction is simply a memory of something that has happened or will happen.

Science Fiction is a perfect example. I feel like the people that write those novels are tapping into something.

One of my favorite things to say, "If I just thought it, someone else already has."

For something to exist we just have to THINK it. And then there it is.
Making all possible 'art' eventually science. 😎

@carrieallen - I am so grateful for you having read my post(s), and just over the moon that someone has taken the time to process and respond to it. I'd give you a big hug right now if I could :)

If art is science and science is art then why are there two different words? I know I sound pedantic but everyone that I talk to say that there is a difference but I haven't really seen any specific example where this is the case. And I can't find exactly where this is defined either...

In the same way when people ask me what my favourite fiction/non-fiction book is I ask them what they mean by fiction (or non-fiction) and I get a similar response (isn't it obvious? non-fiction is about facts!).

I think a Taoist would say that things are just as they are, and it is us humans that try to put them in boxes to make sense of it, but in that process we make things subject to our interpretation which means that there can't be a definition for everyone.

First, I get it. I, too, am just plain stoked when someone reads something I wrote. 😍


I think a Taoist would say that things are just as they are, and it is us humans that try to put them in boxes to make sense of it, but in that process we make things subject to our interpretation which means that there can't be a definition for everyone.

This.👆

I think the boxes are meant to help explain things. For example, why call fruit by any name other than that? Answer: for better understanding. Simple, yet oh so complicated. 😏

We use words to try to communicate. And that's all we can do... until we evolve to not needing words anymore. 😉 But, the way things are going, I'm gonna guess that will be a minute.

One last thought: The definition of art is so loose and open to interpretation (example: Art is Everything) that it may be safe to make science a sub-category of art, rather than an equal or opposite. #morethingstoponder 🤔

I like the #morethingstoponder tag. I also happen to think science is everything too so I am still not sure what the difference is :p

What the difference between fruit and an apple?

Or wood and a tree?

🙃

We have definitions for those things and they appear to be adequate for their purpose. Hence we can say that an apple is a fruit while a fruit can be an apple but it can also be a pear. In the same way a tree contains wood but a block of wood isn't necessarily a tree.

However, when I apply the definition of art to something I find that I can call it a science for exactly the same reason because the definition doesn't exclude it from being called art or science. Therefore, are art and science the same or are the definitions not clear enough?

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