RE: Updated Steemit.com Terms of Service and Privacy Policy
I would love a clarification on this.
Are you going to forward "illegal" behavior onto authorities? If they request records of who someone is for "illegal" behavior are you going to give it over to them?
Think about the ramifications of this user agreement.
There are countries where it is illegal to be gay and they will jail/murder you, will you out a gay person in a country like that if they are violating that country's law by being gay on Steemit?
Will you out someone who speaks out illegally against the Chinese government(of which they crack down on hard)?
What about if someone posts "hate speech" or "something offensive"(which can be basically anything from any side) in the UK, of which people go to jail for posting memes that other more advanced western countries don't jail people for, would you give the government data and the IP address of these people?
Will you turn in people from Venezuela if their corrupt as hell government asks you to?
What do these things mean that you are putting in this user agreement...
So basically what I gather from this TOS is that if we use Steemit you are going to abide by the laws of countries, which many have reprehensible laws and that are unjust. Google/FB/Twitter all do this and people in China/Russia/Middle East/ETC and other places are censored to all hell and turned into the authorities.
I think this is a big mistake if this is the stance you are going to take, and you lost all credibility with me if you truly will report people to governments because not all countries have Free Speech and you want to follow their laws.
If this was the agreement before, consider me unlearned in it and I did not know about it. I will never use Steemit again.
If I am wrong about this, then by all means correct me. But this is extremely important, as we are talking about going from a culture of freely posting things to now you will comply with the government and out people for breaking laws and you will delete our accounts from steemit. We are precisely here because this isn't Twatter/Gulag/Fakebook censorship where they can delete your account, do you want everyone to go to busy.org and other places?... This could mean jail for a lot of people for sharing simple memes, or voicing concerns against corrupt govt, or being lgbt, or telling the truth, or whatever other unjust laws you can add to this.
I agree with you on this. Although the intent of social media and connecting with others technically isn't a crime, in the US, it can be viewed as such if the person you've connected to is accused of something terrible. Their connections on social media are all then also checked into.
I'm a stickler for legal language. I've been burned by it too many times. Despite how the terms are actually written, the interpretation of it will be whatever is necessary at the time to preserve the company's interests over the person. At least that is how it is in the US.
I read the terms with a fine tooth comb and quite honestly -- there is language in them that can be considered vague as well as, IMHO, full of holes. And not the pretty kind that give you a happy ending.
You're right on many counts of what you said.
Even though on the surface, it may appear if you're not doing anything illegal and your intentions are not to do anything illegal, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. To me, that's the same argument I hear in the States about privacy, "If you don't have anything to hide, why do you care that you're being monitored?"
It comes down to basic human rights, freedoms, etc.
The second you're incorporating in America, you're subjected to all the laws corporations must abide by, regardless of the structure or type. This includes all of the little legal maneuvers you must execute as a company to save your company's ass if you want it to stay in business.
I see these TOS by Steemit and the way they are worded as doing exactly that.
I don't know how much longer I'll be on this platform. I don't like being subjected to vague and widely interpreted and undefined legal terminology. I get enough of that out of fucking family court. I don't need it out of a social media.
In how I understood the texts, the only spesific laws that will be used to this extent is the laws of New York and California. As they was spesifically mentioned in relation to conflicts and spesific rights. Mainly due to where the servers running the site accessing the blockchain is located. (OR am i mistaken in this?)
But legal language is messy and you never know how its used.
This is however the weak point to the use of the steemit blockchain. The site in witch is used to access it. Can that part be decentralised too ?
They say in their that they are compliant with the EU and stuff, so that seems to mean that they will turn people over for hate speech/offensive stuff. Stuff that in more advanced Western countries would not land you in jail.
A lot of the European countries don't have Free Speech laws, and you can be jailed for saying something offensive. In the USA we are currently trying to have less people in prison for stupid shit. The prison system creates second class citizens that can never do any better in their life because of the stigma of going to jail.
There are millions in America who went to jail for smoking weed or having some drugs and they didn't hurt/steal or anything like that. Just having some drugs ruins their life forever and they can't get many jobs anymore.
It is a completely stupid way of thinking to put people in jail for such trivial things, especially how European countries put people in jail for mean words or offensive stuff online is immoral 100%. People should rise up against such injustices.
Europe has always had a bad fascination with controlling other people's speech and their citizens. It is easy to see why they constantly had world wars and killed eachother because they are all from a mindset of intolerance historically. Their countries are not founded on having free speech and freedom. Things will get way worse, you will start to see hundreds of thousands of people going to jail for offensive things.
There is no Steemit blockchain, Steem is the blockchain. Steemit is the ui, busy.org is another ui.
Something like this completely defeats the entire point of even having anything to do with cryptocurrency...
Yup!
Nothing personal, but don't you think you're creating drama where there is none...?
These terms of services are not meant to cause any trouble, they're rather designed to help increase security both for Steemit Inc and us, the users of this platform.
Remember that Steemit.com is centralized while the Steem blockchain is decentralized. If you don't agree with these tos you can use any other UI you feel more comfortable with in order to access the data stored in the Steem blockchain.
Again, nothing personal I just don't like artificial drama...:-)
Steem on!!
Their terms of service are designed to make them not liable for other people's content, insofar as they create these TOS so that the govt cannot shut down Steemit INC for not complying with a certain country's laws.
Do you think this is some kind of joke? Maybe you are not well versed in the actual things people are going to jail for, otherwise you wouldn't be so dismissive of this. We were led to believe Steem is going to be a decentralized blockchain social media space that is censorship free. Steemit is the main interface everyone uses and now Steemit is updating their TOS and stating they are going to comply with govt laws, and there are tons of govt laws in other countries that are unjust and do censor or throw you in jail.
This isn't artificial drama in the slightest, I asked them to respond to this to see them write it out that they fully intend to report people to the government as their TOS states they will. Read the TOS and see how they say that.
Here is what is spreading in China for example, the police state monitors everything with cameras and monitors all social media posts. This is what we do not want to have happen.
And in European countries people are going to jail for posting offensive content, and yes that includes pro leftist content and pro right wing content, all it takes in some countries like the UK it so be offended and you can get someone thrown in jail for a few years... It is a very real thing.
This isn't something you should hand wave away. We need to know if Steemit INC is actually going to turn people over to the government like they say in their TOS or if they are not going to for oppressive governments(some EU countries/most African countries/some South American countries/some Asian countries). Since it is in their TOS and they haven't responded otherwise, I have to assume if you live in a place that has no Free Speech you cannot post whatever you want on via Steemits interface anymore(maybe we couldn't before but that is another story as I don't remember seeing TOS before on here).
And that is up in the air on whether or not Busy.org is going to do something similar to this, as there seems to be no TOS for them.
The question is: What is your aim as a user of Steemit.com? Is it to stretch the law and prove how far you can go? Steemit.com is a blockchain based social media app - a platform to engage with people from all over the world. As far as I know few people have gone to jail for connecting with others...?
I'm a European (German resident in Spain) since almost 37 years and haven't ever heard of anyone going to jail for raising one's voice. Most European countries are democratically goverened which means that per se you enjoy freedom of speech. Any concrete examples to prove your statement?
Again, I totally respect your perspective, but I think you're overreacting. The Steem blockchain keeps being decentralized and we shouldn't mix up things. Obviously, Steemit Inc - as a centralized company - needs to defend themselves from abuse and contravention. Still you're free to use any other application if you disagree here. That is precisely why these terms of service have been published.
Nobody forces you to agree on the terms, you're free to disagree if you don't like them :-)
Getting back to my initial question: What's your purpose? Which of the blog posts you've submitted to the Steem blockchain via Steemit.com so far would probably cause you any trouble after agreeing on the TOS? I've scrolled down your feed and can't find anything alarming to be honest...:-)
Go get yourself a beer and cheers to the weekend!
https://news.sky.com/story/memes-will-be-banned-under-new-eu-copyright-law-warn-campaigners-11398577
Here is the most recent thing that is happening in the EU ^ . All the news outlets are talking about it.
And yes there are plenty of people going to jail in the UK/Germany and other places for offensive online stuff. You haven't done your research on this topic.
"A total of 2,500 Londoners have been arrested over the past five years for allegedly sending “offensive” messages via social media. In 2015, 857 people were detained, up 37 per cent increase since 2010." <<-- that is JUST LONDON.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-for-offensive-facebook-and-twitter-posts-soar-in-london-a7064246.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/02/social_media_arrests_up_37pc_london_section_127_communications_act/
Here is just one example of Germany, and this was a raid where they got 36 people on just one day
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html
"Getting back to my initial question: What's your purpose? Which of the blog posts you've submitted to the Steem blockchain via Steemit.com so far would probably cause you any trouble after agreeing on the TOS? I've scrolled down your feed and can't find anything alarming to be honest...:-)"
Nothing will get me thrown in jail because I don't live in a dystopian European country, most European countries DO NOT have actual Free Speech.
The posts that are in my feed and some of the memes I have posted would land me in jail for being offensive if I was in some of the 3rd world dystopian EU countries, 100% would get me in trouble.
What's your point though?
These people were not prosecuted because of simply raising their voice but because of seriously threatening others.
Eeehm....??
Your comments are completely off topic now, which is why I believe we should go move on...:-)
Thanks for your time and all the best to you @truthforce ✌️
I gotta take sides with truthforce here, as much as I never tend to support usernames like that, but I live in China and I post about Chinese pseudoscience and corruption in science occasionally. I have just kickstarted a series on problems China faces in which I was to write about the mass surveillance and authoritarian dictatorship practices and so forth.
Now, I was already a little paranoid about the risks of doing this because they quite literally watch everything we do. But if the ToS allows the regime to be handed over my phone number, for example, well that's it for me. With the phone number they could find where I am in what cafe within minutes, my address, my friends. Everything.
And to say it doesn't happen is absurd. It's not even a secret how many are prosecuted here for what you might consider benign things. One girl was arrested for merely planning to hand out stickers promoting women's equality on International women's day. They got in there in advance of the 'subversive crime against the party'.
There is quite a large Chinese userbase on here and I'm sure many of them are enjoying the fact that their content isn't constantly erased and censored like it is everywhere else in China (try writing the words 'winnie the pooh' on any Chinese social media. Won't work).
If it becomes the case that steemit will take down everything according to chinese rule in the same way companies all over the west are doing in an attempt to suck China's big d***, and if it's the case that they will hand over user data of those individuals... this becomes a very dangerous platform indeed - for me specifically if I continue with this series (which I probably will, but now with my tongue firmly bitten and in control)
First of all, I appreciate the conversation. Often political discussions end up in argument, so I enjoy the polite way in which we're handling it here :-)
Getting back to your point of view, I think we should talk about accountability. If you are resident in China where doing promotion against the Chinese government is absolutely illegal, and you consciously publish such type of content in a completely open web space, then who else but you should be accountable for that?
Well if you had that very intention and are aware of the possible political impact, why would you send your phone number to Steemit, Inc - a company based in the US - then? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the service of Anonsteem where you can purchase a Steem account for only 5 Steem (or 0.0025 BTC) and enjoy complete anonymity. I've created a couple of accounts like that and it's a good option for those who don't want to give away their personal data.
I guess it's important to not mix up things as I already stated in my initial comment: Steem is not Steemit. But who am I telling this? As a member of Steemstem you're surely totally familiar with the two concepts...:-)
Steemit, Inc cannot delete any information from the blockchain but they can respond to take down notices and delete content from their website steemit.com. As a company based in the US, they're also liable to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act - I recommend every Steem and Steemit user to study that concept.
As I mentioned before, the question is: what's your purpose? Why are you using Steemit.com? If you're trying to stretch the Chinese law, then well... you'll need to deal with possible consequences.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but according to your today's blog post (picture at the very end) you seem to enjoy the deliberate provocation...? :-)
Honestly, it's not Steemit Inc who publishs propaganda against the Chinese government... Also I guess you're expecting cooperation and support from the headquarter - but at the same time you use the term STINC referring to them. Why? :-)
Again, I enjoy talking politely about such sensitive topics! I've definitely learned something new today, so thanks for that... and: Steem on!
This is of course true, but I didn't start Steemit with that in mind, I first wanted to write about treating pets and the like. My goals change. But aside from this, it's not always deliberate acts of criticism that is the issue.
As I said in the OP, writing the words 'Winnie the Pooh' can get you in trouble here, because it's considered an indirect mockery of the leader Xi JInPing. Helping charity and human rights may seem like you're doing the right thing, but if it gets too popular, you can get in trouble.
There is a whole Universe of control over things we can't even imagine, depending on the whims of political strife at any given time according to the CPC.
Chinese are often looking for a place to go to escape all this and if they're anything like me, they came to this platform with that understanding - they wouldn't have been aware of anonsteem when first joining, and this is often a problem when companies change their ToS, often under the radar. What you signed up for is no longer what you thought (or never was but deliberately made unclear).
So when it comes to accountability, I don't think it's too fair - perhaps in my case it is, but I feel what I write about is for raising awareness and I hold a belief that this is important in a world increasingly under the thumb of the CPC. It's easy for me to do while I'm living here directly experiencing it. But anyway that's a story for another day. The situation is far more broad than my own anecdotal scenario.
Of course I know steem is not steemit =P but my concern is the lack of clarity in what they hold on to and what personal data they can provide. IP addresses, perhaps? I'm not sure. Liberosist shared some similar concerns that what he is doing is, by the legal standpoint of the west, is very illegal just by holding the server with all the illegal content flowing in and out of it.
The clarity of the legality of steem on the whole is very vague, and steemit hasn't made their position on the whole thing entirely clear. Admittedly I haven't read the ToS yet other than the above point because the ToS was literally not available when they made me click accept (lol), So an in depth read might provide some ease, along with numerous hours of digging into EU and US law...
I just use STINC cause it's easier to write/remember. I had no idea it was a derogatory term? (Though I did pick it up from #price in steem.chat...)
And heyyy I'm not doing propaganda! This is defined as misleading and biased to promote political cause. I'm just gonna write about the facts and the data along with my personal opinion =)
I also enjoy things not exploding into divisive hate, so thanks for that =) I understand I'm writing from a place of ignorance but STINC have not addressed that comment for many hours last I checked, which concerns me all the more
It's a about having the liberty/freedom to freely express yourself. Just because there is a law, it doesn't mean it's there for the best interest of citizens . You are talking about abiding the law, the other users are talking about being human and having the human rights respected . You're totally missing out on the point here .
You are incorrect. The claim is that these people's opinions were 'threatening others', but if you spend even a few minutes seriously investigating the application of laws that infringe on free speech, you will quickly learn such claims are frequently false.
Previously you asked @truthforce if his intention was to stretch the law. That seems to be intended to encourage compliance with laws that prevent dissent.
I will say that my purpose in coming to Steemit was to flee the censorship and propaganda impairing other platforms. I intend to speak my mind freely, and if the law seeks to preclude me from doing that, then I will not merely stretch the law, I will defy it.
I am here because my intention is not to create drama by using my speech in venues that seek to suppress it, but to speak freely. Were I intent on creating drama, I would seek to do so on the most censored and propagandized platforms.
Recently I read content in National Geographic that specified that 1.1 million people were victims of the Holocaust. Not long ago (less than two decades) private researchers that so disagreed with the 6 million deaths propaganda claimed were jailed for nothing more than that.
Whether or not Steemit is going to contribute to prosecution efforts by oppressive regimes, particularly including Germany, England, and other EU countries, is literally existentially important to me, and many other people that resist simply being obedient to terrorist threats.
Thanks for your detailed reply @valued-customer!
I should comment more often on @steemitblog's posts - it allowes me to connect with people I probably wouldn't get in touch with otherwise...:-)
Yet, I think your comment is a bit off topic, even though it's interesting for me to see how many Americans believe that Europeans live in oppressive regimes. I'm German living in Spain and have never ever felt being oppressed in my whole live - it's rather the complete opposite. Probably it's the media in the US that's promoting such a false image...? I have no idea. It's impressive.
But again... we're loosing the point here.
According to your profile description you're a scientist. As far as I know there is nothing in our universe that cannot be explained by the natural science. Why would a person like you fear some terms of services from a website? Sorry for being cheeky but I have to ask you that: Aren't you on a different level? :-)
I mean, what's your point?
Just as a reminder: The parent of this thread is the change of Steemit Inc's Terms of Services.
Again, I'm stoked to have all these great conversations over here that are really mind-blowing in many ways...
Thanks for your time,
Marly -
When a member of a social group does not dissent, the burden of oppression need not be brought to bear.
I have lived in Europe, as well as in many different jurisidictions of the US. I am not speaking of rumors, and did not recommend you weigh my comments as the source of your considerations.
I have been physically attacked, tortured, and kept as a slave by government. My life has been threatened multiple times, most often by thugs representing government. I do not generally advertise this fact, but do here to provide context for why the Steemit ToS isn't merely words, but may well be a matter of life and death.
Should you discover some crime ongoing you find it necessary to oppose publicly, it may be your life that is at stake. My comments urging you to research censorship aren't just philosophical, but hope that you might gain perspective that can not only protect your life and freedom, but those who are necessary to the free exercise of your own beliefs - and who pay the price in blood and treasure for their dissent.
You may not recognize that your assent to taxation is an artifact of your indoctrination by government. You may be able to understand that people who do not wish to fund the murder of brown people elsewhere in the world must object to their wealth being taken from them for that purpose.
I suspect you may not have considered that, given the tenor of your replies. I do hope that free people who are suffering harm your wealth is paying to commit through taxation might at least gain the benefit of you realizing how you are being used to commit that harm.
When you see children withered from white phosphorus your taxes have paid to attack them with, you have a choice. Germany does fund such harm.
When the German government jails people who would reveal such information, claiming they are 'racist', I believe you are harmed, because you are prevented from acting to protect children Germany is taking your money to kill by torturing them to death.
This is why the Steemit ToS matters to me. I hope more people decide it matters to them, too.
@truthforce, there's no way you can turn a sheep into a wolf as you see above. Ignorance is bless for them, and is widely spread and made easy by the govts to be swallowed by the ignorant, weak, comfortable minds - or cocktail of all. Unfortunately, they are way to many thinking or rather having a lack of thinking overall .
No one likes the drama; but ignoring the fact how evil governments are, it's like asking for a death sentence. Can't you see all around the world how the govt and their regulation destabilize and bring to ashes societies and the future of people ? People as such that think is okay to have a bigger brother to think for us, is very personal . Because people as such, outnumber with millions those who actually want to think for themselves and want the world to be a better place. I feel so sorry that in a world where information is now so accessible, people are still ignorant and comfortable with not knowing the truth, and not wanting to look for it..
Thanks for your reply, Viorel and nice to meet you!
Just checked your introduction post: great world traveling here :-)
Now getting back to your comment: I think there is some misunderstanding.
Nobody is justifying governments activities here. These terms are informing you that Steemit, Inc is not accountable for your own doings. If you live in a country where it is illegal to publish certain content, then it's you who should be aware of the risk and possible consequences publishing such type of content may cause for you. Why should a company in the US be accountable for that?
As I mentiond in this thread before: Steem accounts can be created 100% anonymously, without providing a phone number or email address to any involved entity. People who fear the law for speaking out the truth (as you called it), can choose that way.
That is exactly what I meant by creating drama...:-)
Let's focus on the facts.
You joined Steem in January 2018 and have only published 260 posts since then. What's your purpose on Steem if I may ask? You seem to be very emotional about these changes in the terms, so I guess you feel attached to Steem even if you're not very active on the blockchain...
Thanks for the chat, and keep traveling :-)
Totally agree with your stating. I have gone through and i saw the same things, which made my jaw drop! in-conceivable to see how the blockchain tends to become centralized. If you have a minute to read, i have made a post expressing similar concerns about it, and how it worked for me to bypass agreeing with the terms. That's the Post .