RE: Third Test Livestream; Steemit Update
Sometimes they say you look for something so hard and despite it's right in front of your face you don't see it. Exactly what does the other social media platforms have that Steemit doesn't that makes them so popular? A group of moderators or managers who decide when things get censored or removed. What you don't have is the ability of other posters to literally strike down another poster because they don't fall in line with what's been posted. Until the day comes that Steemit develops a system where flagging consist of a call for a moderator or manager to take a look and make a decision on the content provided to make a unbiased decision to remove, strike or take rewards away from it Steemit will never, ever, never, never compete on the same level with sites that do. Never. It's purely that simple. Open debate must be allowed to flourish without fear of retaliation that not only can just consist of someone flagging a comment or a post but that person can run over to your blog site and flag everything in sight making a person lose rewards past what got them upset with you in the first place. It can even get worse then that, they can then call in all their top dog buddies to flag you to....people you never even heard of or spoken a word to flagging you just because you made their buddy mad. This is what hold Steemit back, any pro blogger will tell you that. All's it would take is a simple adjustment to have a moderator or manager or a group like steem cleaners to be flag to come look at a comment and see if it violates terms of use or is so out of this world it warrants removal, loss of rewards and not just based on I have a different opinion on the subject you just wrote about. You can develop all the stuff in the world you want but it will always fall short if freedom of expression is allowed to be abused the way it currently does.
Define unbiased.
Open debate must be allowed to flourish without the fear of your words being marked for a "call for a moderator".
If you honestly think that a committee can be formed to decide what content stays and what content goes on an IMMUTABLE PLATFORM you might be confused as to why people have been leaving FB in droves and why you hardly find a good debate even on Reddit or any other forum, and you must be really naive to think that there is any other venue on the Internet that has the same level of discussion and freedom of expression and the high intellectual concentration that makes up these discussions than steem. Take for example the numerous comments in this thread.
Those would be moderators and their safe spaces will never provide the incentives OR the environment to have the level of creative, critical and constructive exchanges because even if they have incentivez it will probability quickly manifest as an echo chamber where more and more dissent is simply marked, and erased, without anyone to challenge it or extend some forgiveness and gesture of a concern or that someone actually read it, even if they don't agree with it. That's why I don't think much of Oracles and SMT.
In essence, WHY are you not on facebook, so it seems when you have the option to flock to those successful spots, instead you come and expose the fundamental confusion you hold on why steem exists (no ADMINS/freedom of expression/no way to censor) and how (decentralized, immutable ledger) by your suggested "solution". There isn't a problem with expressing oneself on steem, there is only the false idea that if someone curates you or your account negatively it stops one from expressing themselves. Retaliation with negative curation for saying something unpopular or otherwise for saying anything challenging of the mainstream should almost be expected. Expecting that people will be unbiased on the other hand is naive, as is thinking that rewards alone, without punishment or reprisal from the community will encourage open debate, or that you can encourage open debate when the threat of having your remarks erased is looming with any "marked for summary extinction" call, or how you will solve the problem of the committee policing itself.
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Maybe you need to get out more. Disqus is one of the worlds largest suppliers of forum based discussions boards across the world, it works and flourishes based on that everyone has the opportunity to speak without fear of retribution. The forums have up to ten moderators that can be assigned, site owners or media outlets can assign mods, these are usually volunteers. Yes it's true a particular media outlet could pick all volunteers that fall in line with their views and potentially ban users who don't fall in line but that doesn't seem to be a problem on a whole as most will pick people who will balance out the equation. What basically has happened here is there are stuck with a low number of loyal based users, they are a mixed lot, you have those who genuinely respond on a intellectual level, like yourself to me, showing your disapproval of my idea....with some that could have gone an entirely different route and they could have just flagged me for even proposing such an idea, in others words they want me to fear even attempting to have such a debate about making such a change. That's where the problem lies. It happens way more often then people realize. Especially coming from those who have figured out that making a bunch of sock puppets that comment and upvotes themselves leads to a better profitable outcome to themselves then if they waste their upvote on someone else's comment....it's a win-win for them and a big loser for steemit. They upvote their sock puppets over and over again until people realize it's a waste of their time even reading this persons stuff because they upvote their socks not you. If you happen to come along and not agree with something they've written they didn't want anything to do with you to begin with let alone have to sit and argue with you, they don't have time for that they are to busy making money off themselves. It's one of the most silliest farces I've ever seen. Having a moderating team isn't going to "make them" upvote a comment from me but it sure will eliminate their ability to just destroy me or send me a message by flagging my blog post never to come back. Open debate must flourish, go over to Disqus.com and see what a flourishing community looks like, you will be hard pressed to find postings over there that have only half a dozen or less comments on them, most range into the hundreds. This concept based that each individual will monitor the community as whole for checks and balances doesn't work because in a money based system most individuals will chose that which benefits themselves over others, including the survival of Steemit as a whole when their behaviors send people packing off the site. Consider this if you take a peek at a thriving community....most of them over there know Steemit exist, there are very successful blog sites over there, most have a loyal following, most have been encouraged to bring their communities over here or create a branch community over here....and why do you think that doesn't happen? Because they try it out and find that the system is set up to punitive to opposing views.
https://vheadline.com/readnews/disqus-censorship/
So much for the aura of "everyone has the opportunity to speak without fear of retribution".
I want to bring the discussion back into where it's relevant. You see, the system was created to remove ANY chance of censorship, and to give the community the power to police itself. It cannot be subject to ANYTHING punitive like a Committee or Admins, and certainly not to remove data or alter it.
Not to leave it at that, when SMT's and Oracles come to fruition you will have "safe spaces". Curation can also be retributive, but it's certainly not on the same level as having your words altered or removed. I don't disapprove of your idea, I pointed out that you don't seem to understand how counter to why steem exists and how it functions on a fundamental level. I actually addressed the problem of malicious flagging by suggesting that a separate flagging system be implemented along side curation/removing rewards, but which is in reach of all members, and doesn't create a class of rule makers and guideline setters, as the threat of their position is monumentally more capricious than any flagwar or retributive curation.
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This system is way more abusive then what any moderator system put in place would be, it goes up and way beyond the level of censorship when someone can strike down not only your comment on a post which is the only thing that should be allowed to be struck down but it allows for the flag system to be used as a tool of retribution and a person can strike down everything that wasn't relevant to what they struck down as a comment. They can and they do then move forward to strike down your post and continue to monitor and strike to everything you proceed to do for as long as they like. What's your alternative in a situation like that? You can complain to steem cleaners what basically amounts to a moderator, maybe it gets settled and maybe it don't depending on how swamped they are. If you had a system where people know if someone can be brought in on a more adequate basis to take a look this flagging out of retribution would stop. The way the system is set up now is what is killing steemit, you will never have a world where every man can be the sheriff, it just doesn't work like that. This article itself is a perfect example of what's wrong with the system, they didn't like something Ned presented, that's no reason to flag. Luckily for him he had more power then them and could remove them, that isn't a option for the majority on this site. Then some went on to flag people for basically not hating on Ned like they choose to do. Talk about driving narratives, it suppose to be perfectly okay for some on here to drive narratives while the current system in place allows no place for those being drove to seek help in protecting their views.
There is no way to show that this system could ever be more abusive than a centralized system that removes content and otherwise censors. It doesn't follow that people should only be allowed to rate certain things, especially not if we consider freedom of expression and freedom of opinion.
My alternative to someone autoflagging me, as I did so each time it has happened to me, is to embrace their ratings and the mystique they give me and it has worked in the past to the point that people invalidated those autoflags. It could be worse but ultimately it's not stopping me or anyone else from expressing ourselves.
Steem cleaners still, unlike a moderator, cannot remove anything or alter it.
If you compromise the integrity of censorship resistance by introducing centralized control over what others can and can't do, it will be only a matter of time before the people that remain will fall under the thumb of the moderators, because not only will most if not all who joined directly because why and how this place works as it does end up on a mass exodus to other decentralized platforms, but those in the committee will never be able to scale with the traffic that they have to face should this be mainstream but before they have to do that, they will probably never agree on the definitions of terms for the guidelines let alone the guidelines themselves and once they have an agreement there is no way to challenge their authority which affords them immunity and if not at the very least if they're not compensated well will probably result in bad, and very biased calls, and excusing those that pay them, and if they're paid too much they could simply grow fat and unconcerned and worry only about making more.
You didn't really consider anything I said as far as why steem exists and how it functions, and you didn't offer any solutions that could work in that framework. You can claim that steem is worse than blatant censorship and shadow banning elsewhere because people have the freedom to reward as they wish but those that truly value why and how steem is working and what it means to keep those reasons and methods integral in everything will recognize that while they can flag you, remove rewards and otherwise rate you negatively, they can never shadow ban, they can never remove your worse or your ability to speak and those that recognize that generally have zero issues with what others think of them or how they rate them because those things they have no control over and they shouldn't.
You might consider your solution as imperative to steem but it goes counter to everything that steem was built for.
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You are so far off base it's unreal. Steemit is a centralized platform, all the power and decisions are made at the top. It doesn't get anymore obvious then that. It's the most censored, abusive site on the internet, it requires everyone to be a yes man to every written word to be rewarded. I am hoping when Ben Swam finally gets his platform up we'll see a truly free platform that rewards people for blogging, until them Steemit will continue it's decent into the abyss. Moderators would only be removing post based on the same reasons they'd do that now, flagging would drop dramatically just based on something someone said and people wouldn't be afraid to turn in people whose power is higher then theirs for abuse of the platform rules like they are afraid to do now. But go ahead and keep riding on that horse blindfolded.
It's not centralized. The data doesn't go through any centralized point, the validation doesn't go through any centralized point. The data doesn't get queried through any centralized point. It haz ZERO censorship and saying it's the most censored abused site is redunculous beyound any measure. Saying that the site requires everyone to be a yes man to every word written to be rewarded is equally perplexing and it's obviously not in the realm of how a lot of the interactions work, as I am by far the most outspoken and critical of almost everyone I have meet and I obviously got rewarded ever since I've joined, if not outright through curation then directly through the thank yous and gratified validation or simply through genuine responses.
There is no platform that has rewarded anything comparable to the ammount of blogs and people, let alone the ammount of interactions period like steem has.
You keep putting forward an inconsiderable suggestion that was designed to be rendered OBSOLETE by the premise steem is built on. You keep thinking that blatant shadow banning, censorship and a committee are viable options. You have not offered one thought of how that could be implemented, what it means for the people here, and how will it police itself. You are so mistaken that you spare absolutely not one iota of brainpower to consider calling the largest validated, verified and decentralized, censorship proof, bastion of freedom on the internet the most censored site.
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You are wrong on what centralized and decentralized is, when all control and decisions made are controlled by the top that is centralized. You evidently think that a person's ability to up vote and down vote make it a decentralized platform....if that's what makes a decentralized platform it's only in your mind, decentralized would mean the site overall, as inclusive of everybody participating in every aspect of the site as a whole not just up voting or down voting. No body on here would be waking up to surprises springing forth out of HF's they'd all be aware prior to every aspect and had been given an opportunity to vote on changes, that is a decentralized platform, hell this site doesn't even allow it's members to vote on a representative to participate with management and witnesses let alone give people an individual say.
It may have well been based on a good intention but that good intention wasn't well thought out when it pertains to people who would and could abuse what that intention was meant for, it was never meant to be able to retaliate or carry on a grudge because you made a comment they didn't like on a post. You ask me to prove well I very well can. You go to my blog and everything, absolutely everything you see on there that is flagged was done so out of revenge for making a comment or statement those people didn't like on something they posted. It wasn't good enough fo them to just flag my comments on their post they had to carry it off into flagging whatever I had available showing in rewards on my blog. I had one happen just last week. Kafkanarchy was mad because of statements in a blog post concerning Adam Kokesh, it wasn't good enough for him to just flag those comments he had to run over and see what pending rewards I had and take those and flag them to. Like I said he hasn't been the first. This site is the most restrictive punitive anti free speech site on the planet and until they change that nasty habit of people being able to strike down every available resource you have coming to you it remain as such.
I signed up specifically because of the censorship resistance and lack of moderators. I was happy to know that flagged comments were NOT removed and I could look at them if I wanted.
However, I do look over my shoulder and worry about getting in the crosshairs of someone like butthead-bernie and I'm ashamed (as a steemian) at this "flag-war" BS. GROW UP ALERADY!
I don't have any answers to the "out of control" flagging problem but I cringe at the idea of having some other person deciding what we do or don't get to see.
I think the slippery slope to censorship problem is worse than the childish flag wars.
However I never considered this:
What if "flags" or downvotes cost twice as much (or more) voting mana or you were only allowed x# per week or month. Children would still be able to flag someone for childish reasons but maybe it would encourage more discussion and debate. Due to the cost of a flag it would make more sense to make a comment and discuss your disagreement rather than flag or downvote.
I'm on steem because of the FREEDOM possibilities it represents.
Freedom isn't free there is a cost.
You can't remove stuff put on the block chain even if it's done by a moderator, there wouldn't just be one moderator. I am only talking in the same means as steem cleaners works now except they'd take a look at a comment and determine if what the person said violated terms of use instead of just disagreeing with someone. If it's a terms of use violation it would still be handled exactly like it is now but moderators would be forbidden to keep a flag on a comment because someone disagreed with you, that's stifles free speech, that stifles the grow on the platform and that's the biggest threat and use of censorship I've ever seen.
The amount of moderators needed for the scaling up of the site would be forever increasing. Nobody wants to be a moderator. Nobody would do the job for free. If you remove poor curation then you censor people for curating as children if they want. You think that you're protecting people but you're only resorting to the same absurdity of authority figures that steem was built to invalidate. Do you consider that by removing data from the blockchain, especially through a committee, invalidates the functional premises of ledger technology?
If you consider curation and rating things as the biggest threat to free speech and subsequently the biggest use of censorship, you might want to really think hard how you even convinced yourself of the words you've written, because I have heard it before and I came to the conclusion such these people are about the prettiest and most obtusely conflicting people, regarding a review, a rating, curation itself, an expressive freedom, the same as blatant systemic suppression, outright removing or altering of information, or otherwise labeling expressions as illegal or subversive and punishing people for it.
Is it any wonder then that you don't think that's not censorship itself, regardless of the moderators as if someone flags or removes rewards for any reason they want, invalidating their actions by force is censoring their expression, is stomping on their freedom, and saying "you have no right to booo, to jeer, to mock, to insult" in 'the guidelines' won't hide that.
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