Math and Steemit Voting Power

in steemit •  last year 

Hey everyone!
steempays.jpg
I see a lot of people posting about how you shouldn't vote when your VP is low, because you're wasting your ability to impact rewards distribution.

But that just isn't so.

While voting when your power is low may mean that you have less versatility, you are still using all of your potential. Here's some math, with explanations.

The argument goes

(and I've seen this many places, but most recently here https://steemit.com/steem/@taskmaster4450/pissing-away-hard-earned-steem-power-why - please don't think I mean any disrespect. We're all just trying to help new users) that when you keep voting at a low power, your votes are worth less, so you're not giving up to your full potential.

But here's why that isn't true.

When you vote, your voting power goes down, it does so in 2% increments (assuming you're using 100% voting strength for those of us with a slider - if you don't have a slider, don't worry, you'll get one someday!). But 2% of what?

2% of your current voting power.

Your voting power also goes up as time passes, up to 100%. It goes up continuously (not incrementally) by 20% per day. But 20% of what?

20% of your total possible voting power.

So, as you get closer and closer to zero, it takes more and more votes to reduce your voting power by 2% of your total voting power, but it always goes up at the same rate.

How does this work mathematically?

Let us set an arbitrary amount of time. We will begin this period at 100% voting power and end it at 100% voting power. Is there a voting method which makes it so that we have distributed more than any other voting method?

We can...

  1. vote once every 2.4 hours exactly, thereby always voting with 100% vp
  2. vote a whole bunch times in a few minutes, then wait for it to recharge and repeat
  3. vote a whole bunch all the time (let's say once an hour), only waiting for it to recharge at the very end, when we need to meet the rules of 100% voting power at the very end.

Here's our test case scenario: a 100% vote is worth $1, and our arbitrarily chosen length of time is 10 days.

  1. $110 votes/day10 days=$100
  2. $1+.98+.9604...(lim->0) (Let's say 400 times all at once). Then wait 5 days (+20%VP/day) and repeat=$100
    This is more complicated, so here's a Link to a spreadsheet
  3. $1+.98+.008333+... (see column d in the spreadsheet)

Here's where I release this post into the wild, and you can help me make clearer any points that aren't clear.

No matter your voting tactics, you are going to distribute the same amount of value.
You can give me any scenario, and I can figure out the math (it might be tedious) to show that you'll deliver the same rewards overall as any other scenario... as long as you don't leave your votes unvoted at 100%.

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Very Good use of your slide rule! :D
Great to know, but I still do prefer to have a big impact when I want it. Now all I have to consider is how long until I get the type of voting power I want for a particular statement. My "big splash" voting strategy has paid off thus far, but this definitely changes how I view the "less than full VP" times. COOL!

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I'm following you now, I saw your "jack of all trades, except the hard ones" and I was Hooked!
I'm an electrician by trade, is that one of the "hard ones"? :D

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It is! I dunno how I missed this comment so long ago!
My dad's an electrician, and I can usually eye something to figure out obvious problems, but yeah. That's one of the hard ones.

THANKKKKKKKKKKKKK YOUUUUUUUUUUUU. FINALLY!!! lol

someone detailed how this is NOT wasting my vote! its actually the BEST use of my vote,because it's NEVER going to be sitting at 100%.

and yes - i will be giving less to individuals... but to MORE individuals.

so in the end - it's being spent!!! and not wasted at all.

the only people that this matters to - are people who would rather have my 9 cent vote instead of my 1 cent vote hahahaha. sorry - but i would rather appreciate a LOT of posts with a little money and an encouraging comment - than a FEW posts with more money (and also an encouraging comment hahaha)

ok.... now.... do you also have a post that explains what the VESTS are? I think its related to steem power but i'm not exactly sure how?

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I don't, but yeah it's gotta be related. I haven't been very bothered about them, because I haven't run into any circumstances where knowing would change my behavior. I am curious, though.

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I think the same way... Although I did see something interesting on the steemd page... It said something like rewards vesting balance something or other. Hahaha
Now when I check... It's zero for me, but yesterday there was 102 in there. It just made.me wonder if there was something I wasn't doing that I should be.
Shrugs I guess there will always be confusing elements of steemit!
Thanks for responding :)

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  ·  last year (edited)

If it's tied to rewards, that would indeed indicate that it's tied to SP, since that's what determines the size of your rewards.

You say that it went from 102 to zero for you? Have you recently powered down? Or done anything else with your account that might impact your rewards negatively?

Edit: voila https://steemit.com/steem-help/@hisnameisolllie/what-are-vests

  ·  last year (edited)

Of all the article, given my primordial hate for mathematics, I understood that: a. I will keep voting when I feel like; b. Not only you're an artist but also a matematician.. respect bro! c. Super cool picture..I see that the boss is always keeping an eye on you from the baby band thingy 😛

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He keeps me on a tight leash.

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Not to mention Mommy ;)

Well now I'm totally confused. After reading about this topic I'd finally settled on between 11 and 15 votes a day. The posts I read all seemed to say this and had mathematical "proofs".

However, I also read that you shouldn't let your voting power drop below 80% and I found that when I voted 11 times it dropped well below that. So I yesterday I spaced out my votes and made fewer of them so I'd stay above 80%.

Sometimes my vote seems to count for nothing (as in the update amount doesn't change) and sometimes it seems to make a difference.

I didn't expect to wake up to maths first thing in the morning, when I joined Steemit! 😁

Are you saying all those other posts are wrong, despite their mathematical proofs and that we should just vote as and when we want to with no detrimental effect?

Is this the best strategy for someone still waiting their first payout and only able to vote 100%.

My main goal at this point is to earn $2 Steem so I can join a curated group I've been invited to (assuming $2 Steem is a better way to pay than $2 SBD at the moment and that' a whole 'nother kettle of fish)!

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So! First, strategy-wise, who knows? The best "strategy" for new members is really to find the contests (@mariannewest shares a bunch of them in her daily #freewrite posts) and win them. Many of the contests, especially the newer contests that offer small-ish prizes, have very few entrants. If you really give them your all, you have a good chance of winning a few SBD or Steem.

My second piece of advice is to not worry about voting strategy at all. Your influence at this point is worth $0.01 and less (you're still giving some even when the number doesn't change, but because it's less than a penny, it doesn't change the number. Don't worry all those fractions of a cent don't get lost. If a lot of people give fractions of a penny, it still adds them together.). Ultimately, just enjoy Steemit. Use it as a site to entertain and be entertained. The point of this post was, yes, to tell people not to worry so much about how they're voting. It's always "fair", i.e. those who carefully monitor their voting power and those who "overvote" are both allocating exactly as much as their steem power will allow, regardless of their "strategy". Now, if you want to give away 10 $0.01 votes instead of 20 $0.005 penny votes, then sure, pay close attention. But it's $0.10 either way.

Their mathematical proofs are why I'm posting this, because they all seem to miss a bit of math here or there in their calculations that make it seem like voting one way or another would change the overall weight of their votes. Yes, I'm saying they're wrong... but as politely as I can.

In conclusion, I recommend you pursue your goal by
a) posting good (or at least original) content at least once a day
b) reading content that you think you'll enjoy anyways, and if you do, upvoting it without concern for Voting Power, and leaving a comment on it that is unique and that let's the reader of your comment know that you're not a spambot (avoid entirely the phrases, "I upvoted you, follow back?" and "great post."... though feel free to make your own unique memes that say great post, like this one I proudly made - and that I hereby give you permission to use if you want ;) grapepost.png.)
c) finding contests that you'd enjoy. One of my first big payouts came from https://steemit.com/steemit/@lepton/join-the-worst-steemit-contest-first-contest-where-loosers-win
I also recommend you follow, read, and interact with @papa-pepper. He just seems like a really nice fella.

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Thanks for this. Seems like I have stumbled onto the "right" track. Hoorah!

Contests have been the way I've earned SBD so far. Won 3 in the first couple of days but none since but I'm learning where the competition is and where there is less. 😁

I'm posting at least once a day, usually 3 times and commenting on posts I genuinely find interesting.

I think I already follow @papa-pepper but will check.

The only thing I've got "wrong" from your lists, perhaps, is being overly concerned with the upvoting part. This week I'll just upvote whenever I think a post/comment deserves it and not worry about the stats.

"Yes, I'm saying they're wrong... but as politely as I can." I love it!

Have a fun day 😍

P.S. I think this reply would make a great post in it's own right.

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Thanks! Maybe I will!

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  ·  last year (edited)
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This comment is even more useful than the actual post! Thank you very much, @improv

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Thanks. Yeah, the post is mainly just to correct a common and oft repeated falsehood. This comment is advice. :)

Thanks for posting this explanation @improv ...I was previously going off the understanding of taskmaster's assessment (of which you linked in this post). I'm glad to have this cleared up for me. Resteemed and followed, as a career minnow, I eat up this good info. :D
2017.12.22 Good Info Minnow.png

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CAREER minnow? Nah. You'll be a dolphin before too long.

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Thanks for the encouragement... I suppose it will depend on how successful I am at avoiding angering a whale, lol.

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Uh-oh. Are you doing things that will anger whales? They're hard to anger... but you know the big no-nos, right? Abusive behavior and stealing content. Aside from that, you're good.

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Yeah, no, there is only one whale I'm afraid of... the one everyone knows about and dares not mention his name in the wild for fear of being randomly trampled (he has an SP'd up bot army that he has automated to tail any user he pegs and he uses to destroy minnow and dolphin accounts for as he says, the fun of it). His user name rhymes with Fernie Slanders, hehe.

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Hey now, no need to fear our Caped Crusader @berniesanders! Unless you are a reward pool rapist, that is. I see good points on both sides of that argument, but we do indeed "self-policing" @steemit because there is no actual moderation or administration staff for watching abuse of the system. I have seen a lot in just a few trips to the #steemit posts and the alternative is less freedom, infinitely MORE Censorship, and a default mode of fear of "what did I do now" most of the time. IYKWIM!

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I missed this one now.

I really don't know what's happening with all the drama I've seen. Do you want to break it down (from multiple perspectives, if you can?)

What would you recommend for someone like me, whose vote is worth $3? I curate organically, AND I'm on a chain I trust. I use the slider so I can organic-vote more often and still have it count toward my chain. Somehow I feel like this is the middle ground to spreading the love. I dunno.

Am I out to lunch?

What's your take?

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I don't know what a chain is. I think as long as you're never letting your VP touch 100%, you're having the greatest impact you can. Any other nuance is up to you. I can tell you that I use my slider thusly:

100% upvote to any valid pun on my Punday post.
No upvote to any comment I think is spam
5-10% upvote (> $0.01) to comments I think are worth responding to.
1% upvote to comments that don't add much value, but that are not spam, I don't think.
25-100% upvote to comments and posts from accounts that are much smaller than me that I think are being run by real people who are assets to the community
100% upvote to the freewrite prompt

Sometimes, if it's getting close to Monday, when I know I'll be soliciting new puns, I move my slider down considerably, so that I'll be in the 90s when I'm voting on punsters.

But also, I don't worry about it much. That, above, is just how I think I naturally behave. I sometimes act outside those parameters, and I don't really worry.

$3 is great, but still isn't the place where I think one needs to worry so much about what one does with it. I guess you're starting to get to the point where you can boost a young post into the Hot feed if it's already got some action behind it.

But my true hot take is, if every minnow and dolphin just voted their heart (and whales did, too, but weren't as strong... perhaps they could delegate all but 20k SP to increase the influence of minnows they admired), rather than voting for profit, we'd have a healthier ecosystem.

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That feels about how I vote. I think it's fairly natural to want to give more to the quality stuff. I like to do 100% to freewrite stuff. But now I don't think my vote is worth that much, actually. It's gone down this week. Eitherway, I wanna give my boost to the writers.

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That's because of the falling price of steem, and doesn't have to do with your voting power.

  ·  last year (edited)

Very interesting theory and much to use information, thanks. Resteemed for many to see, maybe will be interested.

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You're welcome!

Excellent points! I hope this post goes viral.

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Or even bacterial!

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lol

This is very helpful. Thank you. Tomorrow ill be 1week old in steemit.

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Congrats on your birthday!

Interesting Analysis Friend.
I suggest setting up a FanBase on streemian. Vote at 20 minutes after posts for your favorites. For example, I set mine up to always vote for you. I set my power at 10%. I might be able to set it at 5, but I haven't tried. I vote for as many people as I can at 10%. That allows my power to regenerate. Someday my %10 vote will be worth more than it is, but I want to help many, not just a few. AND I only vote for people I know blog regularly and produce content I like. ALSO, it helps me not miss great articles. I can check steemdb or steemd to see what I voted on, then I can go back and read what I missed while I am away taking care of family. Just a thought.

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Maybe! I'm still active enough that I use a lot of voting power just voting things as I read them! Thanks for the suggestion, though!

Nice post...lol. Seriously though, you made a concept that's been wayyyy over my head pretty darn clear. Once again wishing there was an internal bookmark feature on Steemit. (yes, I know I can use the browser one - but onsite would be a+).

Also - thanks for mentioning someone to follow and her contests. Since Steemit's internal search function kinda sucks, finding great content can be a mission in and of itself.

So grateful for the posters like you! :-)

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Yayyy!

Not only is he funny but also a Mathamagician!

I didn’t realize that each vote reduced your voting power by 2% at 100% power. Thanks!

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:) And hooray to you for making a music video recently!

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Thank you! Gotta keep making stuff!

Thank you for this. I am new here (it's my first day! 🙂) and just asked my first question, made my first post, and "spent" a bunch of upvotes.

I think it's great that you did some quik maffs on the voting structure dynamics. I will be sure to keep the knowledge in mind going forward. And yes I agree that voting willy-nilly will deplete your voting power, but not voting at all is actually worse.

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"maffs" ...I love it, stealing this new word for future use!!!

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Deplete, sure, but there's no harm done. Especially when your votes are all worth a fraction of a penny anyways. You may as well vote with abandon, and get out there learning for yourself what you like!

I see what you are saying, but this doesn't take the curation part in consideration, does it? this guy has a curation league going you might want to check out https://steemit.com/@abh12345

While it is true that you can go down in your voting power and keep voting - if you never stop to power up, eventually you get to nothing...
For me, I do want to power up and have my vote count - meaning giving some real boost to people I vote for.

But the beauty is that when people know what is up and how it impacts them, then they can make a choice.

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Um, actually ;P (I was just watching a show called um, actually, so please forgive me.)

  1. It does take curation into account. You will receive more smaller curations, rather than fewer larger curations, but they should be (on average) the same amounts (in fact, they should be more predictable, since you're making more smaller bets)
  2. Even if you never stop to power up, you will never get to nothing. This is an occasion on which xeno's paradox is actually relevant! If you vote, say, 24 times a day (instead of 10) you will ultimately find that your voting power will never (never ever ever) go below 40%
  3. If you want to give 10 $1.00 votes instead of 100 $0.10 votes, well, that's definitely a choice you can prefer, but the total amount you're giving overall doesn't suffer from spreading it out to more people.

And yes, everybody knowing is good! My point is that they have to know the accurate information, and everything else I've seen on this subject is spreading misunderstanding.

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Just added a column (column h) that should make clear that one will never go below 41.6666666666666666666666666667% if one simply votes once an hour. You'll get a lower number with more frequent voting behaviors, but it will find equilibrium somewhere above 0.

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I linked your post in the prompt as well. And another one on curation. So, now everyone can make up their own mind which strategy they want to follow. I think the most important here is to not let your voting power go unused and to know what your goal is.
Mine is to give as much of a value as I can to each freewriter. so, I try my best to keep my voting power high...

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  ·  last year (edited)

You've put me on the straight & narrow (in so many ways) with your posts I can't thank you enough!! Vaya con Dios

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Marianne has? Yay! Isn't she great?

Thanks man, I was freaking out about getting down to 20% during my week of insane steeming. I really want to keep providing upvotes for others but I was trying to get up to 80% again. I'll keep this in mind.

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You're welcome! Yeah, there's never any need to panic. no matter how low you go. If you just spend 5 days without voting you'll be at 100%. And it's always "fair" so you can just maintain an equilibrium at 20% pretty easily, even if you vote A LOT.

Thank you for clarifying what happens.

I'm not sure about your math - but if a minnow votes at 30% power with 30 sp - no one is getting any reward.

If I keep my power at 50% and vote there - I m losing the benefit of about 40% of my vote.

Another way to prove this is to look at curation reward compared to # of votes. Many minnows get paid for less than 1 vote out of 50.

Join the curation league of @abh12345 and learn from him. I did it for a few months and learned a lot. No one in there is voting with low power and they are the pro curators of the place..

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I'm sure about my math :). The fractions of a penny do add up under the hood.

My suggestion is to compare your votes to your curation rewards. If you are voting 30 times a day and getting paid for 5 - you are wasting your time. Better to spend that time postsing and commenting that voting.

This is a numbers game and the big numbers win. Voting for zero does not help you or anyone, so I advise against it.

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Two things about curation rewards,

  1. You're going to vote less because you're only interested in finding what will be the biggest fish before they become big fish
  2. Chasing those rewards, perhaps counterintuitively, doesn't lead you to helping the platform be its best self, since you're just seeking to reinforce (albeit ahead of schedule) what you know will already get attention. The most recent winner of that contest can attest to that. He had to vote for things he didn't think were the best in order to get the most money.
    I think, for us all to succeed, we need to upvote our favorite content, not the content that will make the most money, necessarily.
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If you don't make money here, you will be one of the gasping minnows. Think big!

Everything I upvote is because I think it is great and I'm not upvoting for zero to make them feel bad. Instead, I am doing everything in my power to grow my sp and be able to reward good content at a better reward. None of my upvotes lead to no reward.

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I guess I feel creating good content is the way to increase SP, and upvoting other good content is the way to encourage users, and curation rewards are negligible for minnows (and they are, even the winner @miniature-tiger, earned a mere 9 SP, and he had to upvote content that he wouldn't have naturally upvoted).

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Sadly, the ways to make the best money here have little to do with content, but we can only do so much. If you want to focus on curating to improve things, you should definitely check out the curation league by @abh12345. I learned a lot there that is not very intuitive.

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If you're still interested in curation rewards, check out @miniature-tiger's series on how the math works! Very useful series.

Posted using Partiko Android

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It turns out, all upvotes lead to some rewards. There is no dust when it comes to curation. You're still getting vests.

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Posting yang bagus

Merry Christmas

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I missed this one somehow. Right back at you... or happy valentine's day now, I guess.