'Is Steemit Becoming a Welfare State'- Addressing the Heart of the Issue EDITED (Including an original song by my amazing brother that poses a question-a challenge-to us all)
For the past several weeks I have been busy at home with preparations for our winter business, and not long before that family matters were taking precedence resulting in much less reading and commenting on the platform than is normal for me.
Though I had been made aware of the ability to buy upvotes, I didn't know the true scope and severity of the issue. That is until the past couple of days, when I began giving steemit my full time attention again and ran into post after post about it.
Perhaps because I wasn't in the thick of it for a time it enabled me to clearly see what is going on here. Particularly when reviewing the comments within the posts.
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I am sure that the initial intentions for some initiatives EDIT- @clayboyn clarified that @minnowsupport is not affilliated with minnowbooster please refer to @clayboyn's comment below-- were meant to be helpful and do good for people who were newer to the platform. But just as the initial intention of the welfare system, here in the US at least, was originally (or so it would appear) meant to be helpful to those who were struggling financially, young couples with children or single parents in particular, we instead find ourselves with more and more everyday having this sense of entitlement, with the recipients putting forth minimal effort while expecting maximum returns.
(Also, I bring up minnowboosters because it was among the first, but the problem came about when a ton of other similar initiatives popped up after it. Or as a result of its success and the realization of the money that could be made, I'm sorry to say)
Now we're not going to be able to solve the state of the American Welfare system, but we CAN do something about what essentially amounts to something similar occurring on steemit.
This platform was built to be Self-Policing. It is our duty as citizens of this virtual city to do our part.
(Yes this picture is utterly ridiculous, I was irresistibly compelled to lighten things up)
I have seen numerous suggestions that all of those who are not in favor of vote buying should stop supporting its recipients. I would amend this slightly by saying those who are purchasing it for themselves at the very least . I believe many of us here are fans of peaceful protesting, am I right? That's how I see this approach. If anyone disagrees, please don't hesitate to explain why.
Okay. Now to address the inevitable onslaught of "How do we make money without this aid?"
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First you have to understand that with the way this platform is currently designed, we don't have the luxury of a large audience of people who are simply here to be the audience. Instead we are all content creators. So in order to succeed we have to 1: create good, original content, and 2: be the audience for those who are creating good, original content.
Now we all know what is meant by original right? We can have a philosophical argument using the statement There is no such thing as an original thought, but in the eyes of the majority here it simply means that you did not intentionally steal your material from another. As for good? Well that's subjective, I'm not going to define that for you. In fact I think it's wonderful that we might all have different definitions and ideas of what is 'good'. In essence I believe you should create what you enjoy creating and be the audience for those who are creating what you enjoy reading/viewing, etc.
If you enjoy pictures of cats, 
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by all means post them, vote and comment on them. (Though if they're not at least your own cats, or really, really good pics you found and credited the sources for...I honestly don't know what to say to you if you expect high rewards for that)
From what I understand, eventually steemit will be creating incentives for people to simply be 'the audience'. Essentially this means they will be enticing people to act primarily as curators. But until this occurs, I ask you to re-read the paragraph above and let it sink in.
I have been aware of this since pretty much the start of my journey here, and have spent a great deal of time practicing what I am now preaching. My start on this innovative, one of a kind social media platform. Flawed and imperfect? Yes, of course, if it wasn't, then that would mean it was easy and there would be a hundred competitors by now.
Look guys, I think that no matter what our differences are, we all have one thing in common- We want this platform to succeed. But that can only happen with us working with one another and if we don't crash the price with shortsighted decisions.
I'm always asking the question "Are we ready?"
I mean as a species.
Recently my brother asked that question- my optimistic, positive, loving, kind, awesome brother...and he put it in a song--but his answer? Worries me, because if he can become cynical...
Press Play on the video, search your hearts and answer him in the comments.
READY written and performed by the Awesome Ed Iseley
The following are great posts of a similar nature:
@fknmayhem-rethinking upvote bots
@krtonika-creating vs. commenting
@surfermarly- my take on vote buying
Generously created for me by @son-of-satire
Have you filled your witness votes?
Check out these passionate and competent souls: @teamsteem, @steemgigs, @ausbitbank, @roelandp and @dragosroua; then go to https://steemit.com/~witnesses
If you don't see their name, simply write it in the empty box at the bottom of the page.
To better understand what a witness does read @dragosroua's post Witnesses: What they are and why you should care
As you pointed out, the cost of a vote market to the ecosystem is obvious: it creates a disparity between the quality of the content and its respective rewards. The weaker the correlation between content quality and the amount of rewards it receives, the less appealing the overall platform, and thus the lower the valuation of the Steem currency.
Unfortunately, due to the way the economic incentives are designed, the existence of a voting market is inevitable. This was foreseen by some of us from a very long way back.
Consider our system where everyone gets to vote on each other's work. As a voter, my vote can give, for example $1 to whomever I wish. Assume that there's a bit of stigma against self voting for larger holders preventing me transferring the value of the entire weight of my vote to myself 10 times a day (which is more or less true) then that means that my vote is worth $1 to anyone else except me. A rational and self interested investor would want to internalize as much of that value as they can, so they're happy to sell their $1 which they can't use on themselves for as much as they can.
On the demand side of the market, if I'm buying a vote, I'm pretty much happy to accept any price lower than what I'd get from the vote (barring risks in steem price fluctuations and delayed payout etc.) So if you're happy to sell me $1 for 80c, it's a no brainer that I'd want as much as I can afford.
Now, at perfect equilibrium, assuming everyone is acting solely in their own self interest, you'd expect the value of votes to be more or less perfectly internalized except for transaction cost (commission etc, and the aforementioned risks factors). This would likely have a $1 vote be worth around 90c or so. When this happens everyone will make nearly enough to meet inflation. This would also mean that they'd be absolutely no correlation between rewards and the quality of content rewarded, leading to the lowest possible Steem price (all other factors being equal).
Note this does not mean Steem will be worthless; it basically still has everything most other crypto currencies have as well as a platform/HUB thing with just random, mostly poor content. If it gains enough people to be part of the system, it can still be worth a lot. All else being equal however, it'll be worth the least amount it could be worth and be least successful at attracting interest to the platform.
So you basically have a classic game theoretical dilemma: if everyone acts in their own self interest everyone loses out because while the slice of the pie you get is optimal, the pie is very small. But individually, each player gains the most by acting selfishly, irrespective of how others are acting. So if 90% of people are playing fair and voting based on quality, but 10% of people are acting selfishly, the latter gain the most at the expense of the good actors, they get a larger piece of a larger pie.
Realistically, we won't get as bad as the worst possible outcome I don't think. We'll deviate from it due to a combination of irrational individual choices and rational group choices. That is to say the worst of us will still vote for a nice essay or funny meme from time to time, and they'll still be good actors, or at least actors not exploiting the most they possible could at any given time.
Bad news is it'll likely get worse before it finds its equilibrium, and also I don't see any viable solution, as that would ultimately involve reinventing the entire economic design of Steemit, and off the top of my head I can't come up with a better one. Everything before like vote trading etc. were all precursors to a voting market, as they all involve the same underlying idea of internalizing the value of one's votes. No reward curve shifting, or playing with the numbers, or attempt to separate bots from normal users, or even flagging is likely to sufficiently address this behavior that's encouraged by the fundamentals of Steem's economic design.
I don't buy votes, but I do vote on my own posts. I happen to believe, perhaps quite arrogantly, that having my content, both short and long, gain more exposure, is a good thing for the platform when compared to the average content on here. So aside from being irrationally non selfish or rationally altruistic at the group level, a third out is hope that the best content creators miraculously decide to buy up the most Steem one day, for the entire platform stands to gain a lot more when good content creators internalize the value of their votes rather than mediocre ones. To this end I'm surprised I have seen many, I initially bought Steem as an investment in myself as a content creator, yet I have not seen many others do this.
It's strange writing something that's not comedy on here. I was going to write a post about this, and may still do so, but I dislike being too serious and/or talk about Steemit too much as I find it to be dull content with limited reach. Still, I put a bit of effort here so true to form, I'm going to internalize some of this value myself haha :)
Okay, haha. First of all, I really like you, you know that. On a personal level, you're a funny, cool guy. Also, everything I'm about to say, understand that I'm not passing judgment on you.
I know in one of your posts I once told you that ideally we would live in a world where we asked "What can I do for you?" Rather than "What's in it for me?" I also most likely said what I always say, which is that unfortunately we don't live in that world. In fact that kind of Utopia is not likely to be seen--I will definitely say 'in my lifetime', though I have to wonder if it ever will be... on this plane of existence at least.
If it wouldn't hurt the platform, I wouldn't just think it was okay to upvote everything I did, I would think it was right to do so because we should be our own biggest chearleaders. (lol) Unfortunately it does hurt at this point. I understand what you're saying- you write great content so it does on one hand make sense for you to give it the value it deserves in order for it to be seen and reflect positively on the platform. But right now it's more about setting a precedent, because people are not seeing it the way you mean it or I just phrased it, instead they're viewing it as "See 'so and so' thinks it's fine to self upvote" and not at all taking into account the quality . For this reason my current belief is that ten percent self-voting is reasonable, but I'm aiming to lower that by monitoring my steemstats more closely. Now my vote is only worth a buck at full power, so it's obviously a lot easier to have that mindset then if it was worth closer to fifty like yours. But my husband has been talking about dumping some money on my account, and if that happens I will still work by this code for the time being, because more than anything, more than my present payouts for sure, I want to see this platform rise to its fullest potential by setting a good example. So taking the same rationale, of insuring that quality content gets the recognition it deserves, I'll just apply it to others instead of me. Again- for the time being. I don't consider myself irrationally unselfish, it's more a philosophy of 'being the change I want to see in the world.' I can't control other people's actions, I can't tell them to do what I do, the only power I have is over my own actions. And the only person I have the right to judge is myself too. So, that's where I'm at. Hopefully I articulated that well, I am a little sleep deprived, lol.
It might have come across as judgmental to make a point about buying upvotes, but it's not about that. I had read a bunch of posts and arguments on the subject, so I just decided to give my own thoughts, which is that I believe it's harmful, that it will hurt all of us in the long run. Because I believe that I feel I have to do what I can to at the very least not add to the problem, so not voting on those who buy their votes is basically what I can do. This doesn't mean I dislike anyone who's doing it.
Since almost the moment that I got here I have made friendships and connections all over the board. I'm not sure if you were around yet, for the huge fights regarding the guilds last winter/early spring, but I might have been one of the few people who managed to be friends with those who were enemies of one another at the time and manage to not piss anyone off, lol. In fact I was, still am, pretty close to everyone on the steemguild, but I was also close to probably their biggest critic. There's an argument somewhere on the blockchain between me and this critic, as I was defending my friends and he was shredding their character. But we hung out in steemchat later that day and were perfectly fine. I strongly feel that you can disagree with people and still be friends- another thing I preach and practice ;)
You do realize that a ton of people would see your comment and big self upvote and have a problem with it right? I'm not sure they'd have the balls to tell you that, or maybe it's less about balls and more about not wanting to piss off someone whose ass they'd rather kiss in hopes of getting some of that voting love turned their way ;)
Not that you should give a rat's ass what others think, haha, to each their own man, that is another thing I believe :)
But definitely consider, with the vote buying I mean- whether that has the potential to drive the price of steem way down as I think it will, since that will affect you negatively as well as everyone else in the long run.
Thanks for stopping by- truly, my 'house' got way cooler when you decided to come over :)
Your idea of peaceful protest via not voting for people to buy votes is GREAT. That's exactly the kind of thinking that I hope we can move towards as a community: Focusing on what we can accomplish with our own two hands.
It seems weird to me that anybody would upvote shitty content in hopes of earning a few bucks of curation rewards. There is a lot more money to be made by supporting the organic growth of steem by upvoting great content. If the steem price moons, it earns all of us a lot more than we'd ever get from nibbling on the curation side.
It's the difference between milking a little money out now vs. earning money for a lifetime by helping to build steem into a true mainstream powerhouse of content distribution/monetization. Personally, I'll focus on the latter.
Man, that GREAT was a much needed lift of my spirits! I generally steer clear of posting things like this, I'm primarily a writer of fiction- a novelist for the most part- and otherwise I love taking pictures, so I'll go to a winery by the lake for example and do Happy Wine Trail Wednesday with a ton of great pictures inside and out.
But I was feeling like I should take a vocal stand on the issue, because I truly see these things hurting our platform and holding back our token from reaching it's shot at the moon!
I agree with most of the sentiment here and as I'm now officially involved with @minnowsupport I just wanted to clarify a few things. I am in no way a fan of vote selling and I am very vocal about that. That being said the Minnow Support Project is not behind Booster or the other bid bots you're referring to. Aggroed does run a small bid bot called @lovejuice, and recently turned it into a way to pay new users for quality posts. My logic behind promoting that service in particular is that it takes the funds generated from something I don't like and uses it to promote quality content on the platform and gives new users a way to earn some SBD. The bot now runs at a net loss due to the fact that it's paying out more than it's making. It's a very small scale bidbot that charges 0.1 SBD for a vote and the rewards max out at like 1.20 ten times per day. All in all I'm still of the mindset that I don't like bidbots at all, but I feel that we've changed that one into something beneficial at least. As far as the charity aspect of the main @minnowsupport account, it doesn't charge anything and anyone can use it to get a small upvote for free from people like myself that have delegated to it. It is heavily monitored and policed and we pull votes from plagiarized content and shit posts and then blacklist those accounts. It's a pretty big group at this point and we are in no way funding our operation on bid bots. Some of the witnesses you list are actually involved and help with the funding. (@ausbitbank and @teamsteem as well as several others) Hopefully this helps shed some light on what it is that Minnow Support Project does and how we operate. The other services that are selling massive votes are their own thing and I can't speak for them, but I have proposed changes to the post reward structure that would make voting for other users more profitable than selling upvotes, but considering the people that control 90%+ of the steem power on the platform probably don't want to change anything, it's going to take time. Minnow Support does now have several top 20 witnesses and more in the top 50 and I think over time the platform will change and get better.
Okay, that was an important distinction, I'm glad you cleared that up. I edited it in the post.
Welfare comes from the state. Paying for it is compulsory.
The minnow support project is an example of anarchy in action. It's voluntary opt in participation by both the givers and the receivers(of which I'm both).
I felt that way when it was first put forth, I really thought it was a good thing, a way to give people a lift. And actually, we do all pay for it in the long run if it ends up tanking the price of steem- vote buying in general I'm talking about, not just minnow booster. If it's cheaper just to rent it, how do we get people to invest? And what I've seen as a result of it is what causes me to compare it to welfare. Not everyone I'm sure, but a whole lot of people are suddenly entitled. And not putting forth any effort, as in not spending a lot of time being the audience for others that they would spend if they couldn't count on several dollars just being given every time. Look, if minnowboosters was the only service out there, it wouldn't be like that. But there are a ton of them now, as a result of it unfortunately. And it's becoming more and more of a negative thing.
Not to mention that it's no longer a matter of whether content is any good.
So true - I just saw a total bullshit post with 17 upvotes that made $8 - but apart from the tool who posted it the other 16 votes were all bots! (no I don't mean my last post)
I really want to see the end of all bots, and make this a place were we can only vote for a post if we have been on that page for at least 30 seconds, doing stuff like reading and thinking.
Because I don't want to hang out with a bunch of bots...
Whew, I'm exhausted. Didn't want to leave you hanging though ;) Yeah, this crap really isn't good for the platform, my hubby examined it, he's really good at seeing ahead, and there are numerous factors that make the vote buying a bad scene for us. What sucks is that a couple guys who have done a lot of good here, who still do, are wrapped up in one of them. They were the beginners of it really, but they had a different idea in mind. It seems they are in a bit of a conundrum now.
Don't ever worry about leaving me hanging! - I live in a whole different timezone anyway but this can't possibly be a time for you to be on Steemit.
I'd really like to read about all this, but I guess there are certain names that cannot be mentioned on Steemit for fear of death...
PS - I think I just had some loving American style - check out this reply...LOL...
"New Zealand. . Your whole country is 1/4 the size of the city i live in . . .i'm done conversing with you regarding mass population issues"
https://steemit.com/health/@barrydutton/fluoride-and-other-toxins-in-your-municipal-water-supplies-are-poisoning-you-they-re-full-of-cancerous-neurotoxins-and-crap-here
Ugh, I got a whole hour of sleep before being woken by my daughter who needed a ride home from work- this was supposed to be Howie's night to pick her up but he's snoring away.
I don't know if I can handle going on that man's blog. Is it that man who gave you a hard time, or someone else? Sorry, but that man might be my least favorite in all of steemit. con artist jerk.
But what did you mean don't mention for fear of death? In my post? I mention no names. I do mention a particular vote buying structure, but I also happen to promote two of the ones who started it as witnesses, which is a conundrum. Except they're really good dudes. I don't know how they ended up a part of it. Basically, I'm against buying upvotes because I think it will negatively impact the price of steem in the long run, and it's already negatively impacting the platform in other ways. But that doesn't mean I dislike anyone who is a part of it.
And if you are talking about a certain one that most people are afraid of, well he isn't a vote buying fan either actually. And he and I don't have any problems, never have.
It's one am here by the way, which isn't actually that late for me normally. Just had little sleep last night and a long day.
The comment was from someone else - "that man" actually did a really good post!
I do mean a whale - not the loud shouty one but a very quite one with a few very subtle connections. I meant you probably won't be able to post your husbands findings.
Okay, now you're going to have to drop this name in chat or I'm going to lose sleep over it!
Ok I just posted cat pics. They are some of my finest cat pics tho! Tell your bro that I like his background Singer. (the sewing machine)
I love cat pics!
Aw :0)
I will always remember @ballinconscious's grumpy cat meme, lol!
Lol, that was a cracker. Such simple things they seemed now!! Lol
That's freaking hilarious!!! I haven't read it yet, but I took a quick peek to see if you were serious, I love it :)
Tell your bro I liked that end line and the performance, very nice job.
I am slowly succeeding, I think. I am not quite fully invested in Number 1. yet, but I am improving on creating good content, (at least I like to think I am). But number 2. I think I have down. I am an Audience. Sometime an Audience of one, but at least that content creator knows they have an Audience, even if it is an audience of one.
I love leaving comments when I find good content, (I don't think I have ever said "nice post", as a comment though). Sometimes when I read a really good post, and see no comments it's makes me kind of sad, I liked the post, I commented on the post and want the poster to leave more content. If no one leaves a comment, then that person is likely to just throw up their hands and put out shitpost, not all of them but I am sure some become frustrated.
pps. I may comment one day, just for giggles:
"Nice Post"
Then you can ask michelle where she found her post meme
You mean this one? :OD
Yeah, that's the one, I love it. I bookmarked it.
Hehe, it's mine. One of my finest animations! Feel free to use it wherever you see the dreaded nice post :0)
You did an excellent job on it. I love how the sledge flies over and conks the guy.
Cheers! It was one of my earlier one too! When the first rash of nice posters appeared
Meester's animation! There was a time when I linked that to every single person who wrote nice post, hahaha!
You are an excellent audience! In fact you are one of the rare exceptions who focuses much more on other people's content. I hope at some point they find a way that people who do as much curating as you can be rewarded really well for it. And I love that you list authors that you find, which reminds me to go check on your posts for new reading :)
Man If you haven't read cheah, from singapore, I think you might like his style. I like all the new ones I found, but his was the standout I thought.
We're ready for a change. There is a very big difference in cultures, it's not the same for a dollar that someone lives in a country where the salary is fifty dollars.
The lobby group (the same nation, the same level on Steemit) is supported, it is difficult to reach the top. Someone does not know English, there are many obstacles on the road to success. But we must try to do our best - great posts and even better comments.
That's very true. But for me the money is not my main reason for being here. When I first joined steemit, steem was worth around fifteen cents and stayed that way for many months, went much lower at one point too. I did the same kind of posting then as I do now because I just loved that I had somewhere to put my words where people would read them. And I had many many posts that made nothing. Maybe a few cents but that didn't matter, I just loved meeting people from all over the world and making so many great connections and friendships. Like you now :)
I guess it depends on what a person's definition of success is, right? Of course now that steem went up and has the potential to go up much further I can't say that I don't want to see that happen. That I don't care at all about the money. But I feel that even if it were to bomb in price it has already been a success for me, truly.
It's you, but 95% of other people are here for money - facebook is for love
Really? Do you believe that about facebook? I have not had that experience there. I don't meet anyone very far outside of my own social circle and while yes, people do get hurt here on steemit sometimes, nothing compared to what I see on facebook all of the time. Especially when the elections were going on. For months and months, all of my family and friends seemed to be at war with each other.
The problem though with using the services to buy votes for your post, is that in the long run it will make the value of steem go down. So it's not good for people who want to make money here. Not ultimately.
Of course - I agree with
Abouta drop your name in my new post - just a heads up! :)
Sweetttt! Abouta check dat shit out, lol!
I couldn't agree more! I mean, I could, but you already know that we share the same sentiment regarding this. I'm not ashamed to admit that I have procured of their services to add a dollar or two to my posts, with the intent of adding some eyes on my posts. Sadly, it didn't really add to it. I have since undelegated my lease on the services though. The reason I need a boost is, as you know, because my name seems like a repellent to people haha!
This is something we've talked about before numerous times. People feel entitled and because of that they don't put in the effort, whining if they don't receive what they feel they deserve. Pretty discussing attitude. That's why it's going to be an uphill climb for this platform. For all the people who put in the effort, there are always 10 who drags everything down. Maybe if the right people are empowered? I don't know, I'm not the right person to comment on this haha!
Personally, every day things don't pick up I'm becoming more and more disenfranchised. There are only so much hours I could waste in exchange for $5 haha! Since people don't even give me a chance here I'm going to have to take my perceived talents somewhere else. At this rate, I'm going out with a whimper haha!
I bet Ed would do remarkably well here in comparison. Why is Ed still not on Steemit by the way? I would've thought that me channeling his conscience would've done it for him.
You seriously can't leave. I mean it. I understand your feelings, and I don't expect you to spend hours of time on a post when you feel you won't get rewarded what it deserves, but the new short posts take less time right? Did you know that I visited @traf to tell him since he's encouraging short posts he should check out yours- only to find you were in the comment section haha!
Yes, there should definitely be a change up in those who make decisions. I was given a link from @personz about a 'highroller discussion' that's going on tomorrow. There are some whales who are adamantly opposed to the vote buying. Basically there are some good guys, I just don't know if they outweigh the shady ones.
Why my brother is not here. Honestly the only thing I can say is that he's insanely busy though I know if he just got past the hurdle of the first post he would make time for it, and most likely find out he enjoyed making time for it. So yeah, it's basically just taking the first step that seems to be really hard for him to do.
He laughed really hard at your comment from his conscience though. God I wish he would get on simply because I know that he would be fast friends with all of my friends. He would fit into our circle perfectly :)
Haha my most recent short post is the lowest earning I have so far in the past I don't know how many months haha! First time I haven't crossed the $10 threshold as far as I can remember ever since averaging double digits. As much as possible, I try not to just look at it. I have a few set goals I want to accomplish by the end of the year, then I'll reeavaluate my Steemit life.
Haha yeah, @trafalgar's one of those cool guys who really takes time to reply. I've been following him since he was still new here. He rarely votes or comments on my posts, like almost not at all, but at least he takes time to reply. Which post did you see my comment?
Good whales, bad whales, to be honest, at this point where I am, they could all screw themselves haha! Well, not all. I can count on one hand the whales that has my measly vote. If they take the time to make old minnows like me feel empowered and included, then they have my full backing, however worthless it is. 98% of the whales are either busy with newbies, dolphins or other whales. There's no room in the sea for an old minnow like me haha!
I just hope I could get a chance to interact with Ed before I get washed into oblivion here.
I wrote a response, than decided I'm going to paste it in chat instead.
I shall peruse it in a bit!
Great write up. I personally feel that the use of upvote bots could have a (much more modest) place on this platform. For example: I've spoken to a few users even newer than me and at least a few are frustrated at the fact that their vote isn't even worth one cent.
The use of a small upvote bot could be a way for them to support another user they feel is worth it.
I have, since the beginning of my steemit days in August, refused to use bots on ly own posts. I still feel the same way: determined to earn my upvotes. I have had a few users who felt my posts were worth it and they sent a bot my way. Well, I can't imagine a greater compliment than that. Also your brother's voice is amazing. Soothing like hot cocoa with dark chocolate in there. ;-)
Oh, I wasn't talking about upvote bots actually, I don't have a problem with that as long as whomever is using them is responsible about it--meaning that they check in on the quality of the content of those they've assigned to the bot. I agree that it's a compliment, and I'm on a few people's autovoters (which is pretty much the same thing).
I just don't like buying upvotes, as in pay x amount of steem to an account and they'll come and upvote you. I believe it devalues the currency, especially over time.
Aw, I will definitely pass along your compliment to my bro, thanks for listening to him! And thank you for your thoughtful comment :)
I have to agree. It's sort of what I was clumsily trying to say myself. :-D