Flagging War? Who is to Blame? What on Earth is going on!?

in steem •  9 months ago

There has been a lot of drama lately on steemit! Anyone who's been around for a while knows that this is nothing new, but for new users this can be a really confusing situation.

Unfortunately I am seeing a lot of people that are confused by what is going on and are getting caught in the crossfire. This confusion and misunderstanding of how steem works is causing a lot of hurt, anger, hate, and sadness. I have spent much of the last 24 hours trying to educate people through comments to help them get a better understanding of how steem works so that they can avoid hurting themselves and others. I thought that I had better post my thoughts in one place so that I can share it with anyone that doesn't know what to think about this situation.

Background

(I am oversimplifying and might not have the timeline completely correct but I am just trying to use this as an example of the principles for us to learn from.)

First off, a little background. Basically there was an account called Haejin that joined steemit and shares technical analysis information on various cryptocurrencies that many people follow to get trading tips. He posts several times a day and has gained a fairly large following of mostly small accounts.

One day, a whale (someone with a lot of steem power) named ranchorelaxo started giving 100% upvotes to Haejin for several hundred dollars per vote. Is this a problem? No, rancho has every right to upvote who ever he chooses.

Now let me take a quick aside and explain where the steem payouts come from.

There is a rewards pool that is paid out every day. The way that it is distributed is decided by people upvoting and downvoting posts. When you upvote a post you are saying that you think that it deserves more of the rewards pool. When you downvote a post you are saying that it deserves less. Your vote is weighted by how much steem power you have. Everyone has the right to vote how they choose to help us distribute the rewards pool as fairly as possible.

When you have a post that has been voted by people you will see it say "pending payout" this amount will go up and down based on the upvotes and downvotes that you will get over the first 7 days. At the end of the 7 days, you are paid that amount. You are not entitled to any of it before the 7 days are up. People are not "giving you money" when they upvote you and they are not "stealing it from you" when they downvote you. They are simply helping to decide how much of the reward pool you should get for that post. If we accept the upvotes, we have to accept the downvotes.

Ok, back to the story!

So the more money Haejin gets from the reward pool, the less everyone else gets. This is fine because we all get to upvote and downvote to help decide how much each post should get paid.

Several people noticed the Haejin was getting a huge amount of the reward pool and started downvoting the posts to give some of that money back to the reward pool for everyone else. Is this a problem? No, these people have every right to downvote posts that have higher rewards than they think they deserve. This is an important part of steem to help to distribute the reward pool more evenly.

Haejin took this as a personal attack and started downvoting the posts by the people that downvoted him out of revenge. Is this a problem? Yes, the only time you should downvote a post is if you disagree with the amount of money the post is getting or you think it is spam, abuse, or plagerism. Revenge is not a reason and is frowned on by the community.

Another notable whale berniesanders who generally goes on downvoting crusades on accounts that he feels are abusive stepped in. He started downvoting Haejin and his followers in retaliation. Is this a proplem? Yes, again remember what downvotes are for. If you want to counteract the abuse by Haejin, you should simply upvote the posts that he wrongfully downvoted. And again, if you disagree with how much Haejin gets with his posts you can downvote his posts. You should not, however, start downvoting for revenge, even when you feel you are justified.

So to sum up, what happened here was someone disagreed with Haejin's rewards and flagged. Haejin got angry and started revenge flagging. Berniesanders came back and revenge flagged back. Rinse and Repeat.

Now let's look at what should happen. Someone disagrees with Haejin's rewards and flags them. People either agree and do nothing or disagree and upvote Haijin more to compensate for the flag. Haejin accepts the upvotes and the downvotes and continues creating posts.

Well what if someone is revenge flagging? Then we downvote the posts we don't agree with and upvote anything they downvote to counteract it. One of the great features of steemit is the voting power mechanism. When you upvote or downvote anything, your voting power goes down and slowly recharges back to 100%. This means that if one person is upvoting or downvoting a lot, their votes get weaker and weaker. If we all counteract the downvotes of the revenge flagger, eventually their power will be depleted and they give up.

In conclusion, we should use our upvotes and downvotes with care. We should never use downvotes as weapons. We should not support people that are using them as weapons. If either side would stop doing that, there would be no war. Just one person obviously in the wrong and the community will decide what to do about it by upvoting and downvoting accordingly.

Hopefully this clears up some of the confusion. Please correct any errors you see with my post.

Feel free to share this with anyone that is confused by this whole situation.

In the next few days I will share with you an idea that I think would help with these types of situations. Basically it would introduce checks and balances to voting power by revamping the reputation system to something like User Authority or a web of trust and making your voting power based 50% on your steem power and 50% on your reputation. So look forward to that.

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The only thing I don't agree with is:

"No, these people have every right to downvote posts that have higher rewards than they think they deserve."

Why don't I agree? Because "these people" is very inaccurate. "these people" are in fact, one person and one person alone: berniesanders.

Little bernie uses a Bot with 60 of his own accounts to make it look like there are more people against haejin than just himself. Or else he would look even more ridiculous than what he's proving out to be.

And worse, he uses this Bot to attack everyone who disagrees with him. You don't even need to curse to be persecuted by him and have your rep go down to zero. I speak for experience, as he did that to me... twice! Out of spite and spite alone.

What does he gain by censoring everyone? Nothing but hatred. Unless he's the hate collector, I don't understand why he does such stupid and moronic things.

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I don't defend berniesanders at all but there are a lot more people than him that were downvoting Haejin's posts. Many of them are great contributors to the platform that I respect greatly. Let me be clear, berniesanders is wrong and haejin is wrong. We all have the right to disagree on rewards. You think haejin should get more rewards so you upvote him. I think he should get less and more should go to the rest of us so I downvote him. We all get a say and that's what makes steem great. You have experienced first hand what happens when there is abuse of the downvote. Haejin is doing the same thing. (though a lot less effectively)

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Well, haejin is just playing the "Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth" game with Bernie, now. Isn't he?

A lot of people tried to reason with bernie, and I mean... a LOT! Only to be mocked, bullied, insulted and flagged. If he couldn't listen to reason, then maybe violence is the only language he understands. And maybe, just maybe, bernie will learn something from this lesson. Who knows?

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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Bernie thrives on this stuff. You don't beat him by playing his game, you simply negate his votes with positive ones. He has limited power like everyone else.

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From what I see, somebody really needed to take bern out of his horse... By beating the bully at his own game.

Consider this move from haejin as being the Revenge of the Nerds.

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You don't beat someone by playing their game, you beat them at playing your game. Haejin's strengths are not his flagging ability like bernie, his strength is his community. Bernie can survive even when no one really likes him because he is very good at walking the line. If Haejin tries to copy that and make everyone hate him, he cannot survive. His best strategy would be to ask the community for help to counter bernies flags (by upvoting, not by revenge flagging) and if the community doesn't want to, then he has to live with it. Otherwise he is going to be taken to the same level as bernie.

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How can anyone survive when bernie uses randowhale to downvote all of that person's posts and comments...?

Unless you are filthy rich, you have no chance.

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Most of the time, if you are a good contributor to steem, he leaves you alone. And if he doesn't, there are many members of the community that will come upvote you to counteract his downvotes. I don't like that he has that much power, and sometimes it doesn't end well, but most of the time the community overrides him if he is really doing something wrong.

In other words, get the good whales to like you, and avoid the bad whales at all cost. :)

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Honestly, after seeing the attacks on haejin don't stop... I hope haejin obliterates Bernie Sanders and crushes everyone in his Steem Poker League. They wanted war...? They got it.

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I din't realize that bernie was assosiated with the poker league. The point is, there shouldn't be a "war" haejin will be protected with upvotes from other whales if he is in the right. He doesn't need to revenge flag if he's in the right. The problem is, now everyone hates him and bernie. They are both wrong, and the rest of the community is pretty much in agreement on this. This is why so many people are flagging Haejin and bernie. No one likes revenge flagging abuse. We have shown in the past that we don't need it. It always makes things worse.

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As long as bernie keeps using this site as his personal playground, nothing will ever change.

See this, for example: https://steemit.com/steemit/@scarlet7/daily-berniesanders-and-randowhale-abuse-report-1-4-18

This episode made me lost my faith in this project. But it was mostly bernie's fault. He acts like a complete cunt. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to keep my money locked up in a site where a stupid cunt has enough power to make life miserable for thousands of people.

I'm powering down... and I'll probably be selling all of my STEEM and SBD and use that money to invest in more mature projects. Ones that aren't being ruled by trollish kids with too much money.

I loved this site... and I was advertising it to all my friends. But not anymore. Now I just look at SteemIt and say: Meh.

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I'm not saying that steem is perfect but it is much better when people don't revenge flag. If Haejin hadn't done that, we would all be better off. The reason I think that most people aren't going after bernia as much is because in general he goes after abusive accounts. THIS IS STILL NOT OK! But that's why most people leave him alone. Haejin started going after many popular people here on the platform with revenge flags. That is not a good idea.

Good luck in your future endeavours.

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You sure? Your boy has it going to $14 and SBD going to $22.

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Well, STEEM and SBD can perform well, even if SteemIt becomes the 4Chan of the Blockchain.

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His poker league? Are you even doing any objective analysis? Like any at all? What on Earth makes you think the SPL is his poker league?

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I don't even care. I'm avoiding the bully and every community he's in. And I couldn't care less what belongs to whom.

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That's fine, but he's not even in that community.

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Again, I don't care where he is or isn't.

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Yes, but you're saying that you hope the league that has nothing to do with him is crushed because of him. That makes no sense.

Oh Nice, you followed the Drama also. I feel Haejin just took this too personal. If he was really doing this for the interest of all, his major concern should be the number of people who gets to use the information he provides. There is always plenty of time to get enough rewards from the reward pool. He has been doing well and I feel he shouldn't have revenged. His action towards this had made his name known and alot of whales would definitely keep tabs on him to make sure he doesn't get enjoy what he has been doing, since he has made US all understand he is much after the money than the information he is providing.

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A lot of people tried to reason with sanders... for over 2 weeks. Only to be censored, bullied, insulted... bernie kept acting like a bully, persecuting everyone that defended haejin.

Now haejin is simply following his Asian culture: avoid a fight as long as you can, but if you can't avoid fighting, then beat the living crap out of your attacker.

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Good point. He should've just stayed under the radar! :)

Very informative . I did know a little about the fued , now i get the whole story .. Haejin should be stopped yes , and you gave all the ways as to how ..

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haejin's followers account for over 3% of the total users of the site. He started earning a lot because thousands vote for him, including a whale... and also, and this is very important, because STEEM went from $1 to $5 and SBD went from $1 to $10.

If STEEM and SBD hadn't climbed so much, berniesanders would have kept his mouth shut. In sum, he attacked haejin out of jealously, without even realising why the rewards climbed so much.

So, unless you people want to go back to a time where both STEEM and SBD are worth $1 each, you all will need to accept that EVERYONE will be getting higher rewards than what they were getting just a month ago.

Just look at this post for an example. 4 votes, $0.60. A month ago, this post would be rewarded with $0.10, tops. Are you going to be a jerk like bernie and flag it? Of course not.

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He is entitled to everyone of those upvotes. But we as a community are also entitled to downvote him when we think he is getting more than his fair share. He should not, however downvote out of revenge. That is frowned on by the community and is the reason why many people are against him right now. (It's also why no one really likes berniesanders)

If you don't think this post is worth $.60 then you are more than welcome to downvote it. I won't like it, but that is the way that steem works. We all share the rewards pool and it is our responsibility to vote responsibly to give the most people the most rewards.

Also as a little aside, SBD price doesn't effect the listed "potential payout" price. It is an additional gain after the post pays out.

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Actually, everyone is entitled to 1 upvote or 1 downvote. To have 60 accounts and use 60 times more votes than everybody else... is simply cheating.

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Each account doesn't get the same vote, your vote depends on your steem power. Having more accounts doesn't give you more power in voting. It might increase the speed at which your voting power regenerates, but I don't know for sure. You are more than welcome to create 60 accounts of your own if you want.

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And here I was thinking that one of the rules was... One account per person, only!

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Nope, that is not a rule

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Well, those were the Terms of Service I accepted when registering my account. One account per person.They even sent a SMS to my mobile, to ensure I wouldn't be opening multiple accounts. It looks like those rules aren't equal for everyone. I wonder why.

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Sorry, but STEEM and SDB prices DO affect the earnings you see on the posts. My vote was worth $0.01. Now I have less STEEM POWER and my vote is worth $0.02.

Meanwhile, haejin is still being attacked... and whoever is commenting is also being attacked.
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@haejin/bitcoin-btc-morning-update-classic-vintage-running-flat

So, what is this? The USSR all over again...?

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The Steem price effects the earning you see but the SBD price does not. It is assumed that the SBD price is always worth $1. So your $.02 vote will actually be worth even more in USD because half of your vote ($.01) is paid in SBD which are worth like $7 USD right now I think. So that $.01 is actually worth $.07.

Love your article! I'm new to Steemit, so understanding what's going on is helpful in preventing fear about the future of Steemit. I agree with downvoting and upvoting based on our personal opinion of the value of the post, but no revenge flagging. That is just going to lead to trouble and cause followers of the other person to want to revenge flag you back. Not a good idea. We should follow the golden rule here on Steemit: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Thanks for sharing your insights!

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What's happening is that one user is censoring everyone that disagrees with him... and also, flagging everyone that makes more than a few pennies per post.

Are you accidentally helping Rand0whale as a self appointed Steemit censor?
https://steemit.com/steemit/@tarquinmaine/is-rand0whale-the-self-appointed-steemit-censor

Steemit Is Ruled By A Communist Party
https://steemit.com/steem/@lexiconical/steemit-is-ruled-by-a-communist-party-flags-wars-look-worse-to-investors-than-the-rampant-abuse-they-claim-to-fight

Whales and others, their behaviour on full display
https://steemit.com/whales/@taskmaster4450/whales-and-others-their-behavior-on-full-display

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You should only comment if you are adding value to the discussion. If you don't, you will be flagged (this hurts your reputation) If you don't have something important to say, it is best not to say it. Just some advice so you don't get flagged in the future.

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I think he commented on the photo, instead of the article. :-P