That day I got a downvote and turned into a crazy maniac

in #steemlast year (edited)


Yes this will clearly going to be a rant post and because of that I’m going to send a portion of the rewards to the @Steem.Dao, as I feel it’s a good way to distribute rewards to something that adds value on a posts while auto votes are trying to find their balance. I haven’t decided the percentage yet... I’ll see how long and ranty this gets. 😄

So, back to the topic at hand - Downvotes.

I’m a big fan of downvotes, and always have been. I feel they are important to balancing a shared reward pool, and when used correctly, they are simply a way to distribute that inflation to where stake holders see fit -just like upvotes.

Clearly not everyone uses them correctly, we see that every day. Many use them for revenge, for opinion or to simply try to bully people ... that’s just the world we live in.

The way to help normalize downvotes and guide our community to a healthy culture around them in my opinion is for people to use them, actively. While also being sure to counter those that are being used maliciously.

I feel that last part is pretty important for normalizing them, and have been trying to actively do my part to counter those I feel are unjust, but it has to be a group effort to be truly effective.. and we aren’t there yet.

This will take time to find a balance, that’s just the way it goes.

But what about those who literally lose their fucking minds when they receive one?

I think most here are familiar with this.. no? Someone receives a downvote, possibly a malicious one, and they lose it. They rage, they rant.. they go off the deep-end.

In fact there are are few that have turned into full on trolls and started harassing, spamming, threatening and pretty much doing anything in their power to cause harm..

And some apparently think they are justified in doing so.

Well they were normal before they got that downvote. It’s not their fault.

Yes it fucking is.

It is their fault. It is 100% their fault that a downvote turned them into a toxic human being who wants to cause harm through any means possible, and saying otherwise makes you part of the problem.

I don’t care if someone was mean to them, and apparently no one helped them to counter that mean-ness. That is the shittiest excuse I have ever heard for such behavior, and the fact that so many seem to think it’s a valid excuse makes me question our ability as a community to find a balance and create a culture anyone would want to be a part of.

Just like I don’t support or make excuses for malicious downvotes, I won’t do so for an individuals actions... cause that downvote hurt them that one day.

Finding that balance

Some people are fragile and they feel physically wounded by a downvote.. and will still talk about it years later. I feel this is because downvotes were never “normal” here and therefore they were always personal.

I think we are beginning to attempt the normalization of them, and that will take time. I also believe it requires not only the use of downvotes, but the countering of those used incorrectly.. whether there is a “reward” for them or not.

Yes you lose CR when countering downvotes.. but the value it adds to the culture of this community is pretty important imo.

I hope to see more of this happening, as I think it’s important. So if you are someone who is receiving malicious downvotes for retaliation or otherwise, feel free to reach out and I’ll do my best to help.

But let’s stop making excuses

Some people are insane and thrive on hurting others, that’s just the world we live. But saying this behavior is understandable due to a downvote they received is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard in my life.. and I’ve heard a lot of stupid shit.

There is no excuse for that behavior, and should not be tolerated from the community. Sure we are all adults and we need to have thick skin and put our big boy pants on, and I do every day.. but I expect the same from those who receive a downvote - whether justified or not.

If receiving a downvote physically hurts you, perhaps you need to spend a few more minutes in the real world.. as it’s not made of bubble wrap. And if receiving one turns you into a psychopath, you were one already. I just don’t feel for you, sorry.

Community working together to change a culture

We have had a long time of a “anything goes” mentality, and changing that will take time. This will also take good examples and the community coming together as well.

So while I encourage everyone to use their downvotes in constructive ways, I also hope we can actively help to counter those used incorrectly. And I’m here to help in any way I can.

But I also think we need to stop making excuses for psychopaths... jus sayin.

—- end of rant —-

Much Love and Steem On,


Image source


Here is my down vote story sad but true. :) I'm a very small fish around here. I used my first down vote the other day. I joined in with about 20 other individuals to down vote a post that looked to be overvalued. Not a bad post. In fact it was similar to one I had running at the time. It was just garnering about 30x more then mine. Maybe frustration got the better of me, but retaliation by this individual was swift and my little $2.00 post was wiped out.

So I am not sure that I should be trying to down vote anyone. I get the feeling maybe I should just stay in my own lane and leave the down voting to the professionals. :)

Yeah, that tends to happen, but retaliatory actions will only hurt the one's reputation who's engaging in such activity. Don't hide in the corner, this is a team effort. No active participant can avoid taking a few hits.

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I'm definitely a little gun shy right now but will probably jump back into the fray at some point. :)

One option is to delegate to @curangle. Then you can suggest posts to downvote in

Good info. I will look into that. Thanks!

Oh shoot! I made an typo, meant @curangel. So you can delegate to them, then curators look for posts to be upvoted by @curangel. 20 percent of the curation rewards go to curators and 80 goes to delegators. Then as an extra feature delegators can suggest posts to downvote.

That's funny cause I read it as angel the first time anyway. :)

And this is the countering I was discussing, that return downvote is revenge and the community should rally around to counter them.

I’ve gotten quite a few of them myself but luckily it doesn’t wipe me out.. but yeah returning a 20cent downvote (in my case) with $15-$20 seems a bit over the top 😄

I want to thank you @justineh for this post and a chance to tell my story. I also want to thank the community for their support in this matter. :)

We are all in this together 😉

Just gave you a solid up vote to encourage you to jump back in 🙂

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Thank you! Real life has kind of got in the way right now plus I hit a bit of a posting wall, but I will be back. :)

Every once in a while i like to see you get downvoted.

Hahahha .. well as someone who has downvoted herself, I totally get that and respect it. Feel free to throw one on 😉

The biggest problems with downvotes for me is when its not explained.

Like, what is wrong with my post? What did I do wrong? Did I use a wrong tag? Etc :D

There shouldn't need to be any explanation. The value is higher than a downvoter thinks it should be. That's it. Of course not everyone uses it this way, and if that's the case they usually say something more. Usually.

There should be, because not everything is about rewards.

Zakuu warned me that I was using a wrong tag that had nothing to do with my post and I removed the tag :) Otherwise it would have gotten downvoted and the post was around 0.2$ :)

And I have gotten downvoted on actifit post with 0.3 - 0.3$ because I told someone why they got a downvote from marky x)

Those go in my "other" category. Makes sense.

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I just think people could be nice and leave a reason why, instead of being cunts.
And so people could talk about stuff.

Generally when it’s for tag abuse the person is most likely spamming tags and quite frankly should know if their content falls into that category or not. I’ve seen many comments to explain the tag situation when that is the reason. And it sounds like you have gotten some communication in those times as well.

But generally I don’t see a reason to comment for disagreement of rewards, why should they? They sure aren’t normal if we have to explain each one. Do we need to explain each upvote as well?

Upvotes show you think the content is undervalued. Downvotes show you think the content is over rewarded. That could be just due to post rewards themselves or the idea that is over rewarded as its spam, plagiarism, harmful, or abuse of tags, bid bots etc.

I’m not one that thinks we need a comment each time.. but I understand how in the situation of improper tag use, it could just be a simple misunderstanding and a comment could help. I think each person just needs to use their best judgement on that one.

Once and it was just when tribes came out and I have always been limit to 5-8 tags since I mostly use apps for steem.

Well. It can still be confusing to why someone got a downvote.
I could downvote a blog post about god since I think thats harmful or a post with quotes from the bible I would see as plagiarism, no matter the reward x)

I dont do it since it also falls under the freedom of speech, but its just useless to me :)

There is nothing about a downvote that affects freedom of speech. Downvotes don’t remove content or censor it, they simply affect the amount of the inflation pool allocated to a post. So yeah if you think those posts are over rewarded, why not downvote them? It’s a valid reason imo.

This is what I mean about normalizing downvotes and seeing them for what they were intended.. and not how they have been used in the past.

I've used downvotes some few times in the past. I remember one article I found to be totally crap, this was in the "flame wars" between Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash. I believe the poster was just repeating rants he had heard from someone else, no good arguments, ad-hominems (argument going like "X is a bad person because he once did Y, X supports project Z, hence project Z must be totally crap"). I didn't only downvote it, but I also explained very well in the comments section why I had downvoted it. I didn't believe it was possible, but the author actually adjusted the article - and I removed my downvote.

(I sincerely believe the toxicity and schism in the bitcoin environment killed the chance Bitcoin had to compete with banking solutions - I wrote a bit about it in another post

I think a comment should be given when it comes to plagiarism, spam and tag abuse

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I haven't posted in a while just in case I receive a physically wounding downvote. Could you imagine the shame to my family if I did?

The Australian downvote culture does indeed lead to bringing shame upon the family and the only way it can be appeased is through an honour killing or being forced to drink a beer that has been sitting out in the sun.

You are on a roll today 😂

Yeah I’ve heard they will feed you guys to the kangaroos for such shame. Maybe we should start shaming you for not posting.. just to balance it out 🙂

It appears that a lot of stakeholders that get upset about the downvotes don't know why the downvote exists. What they dont know turns to threat and boom they bring out guns.

Anyway I'm concerned about actifit users who are used to exchanging their afit tokens for upvotes for their low effort based activity posts.

The mandate better gets to actifit headquaters.

I hadn’t realized they were doing that, thanks for the heads up 🙂

Yes I think for many it’s a misunderstanding of what downvotes are for, probably stemming from a misunderstanding of the rewards pool itself. This is something that will unfortunately take time for everyone to grasp.

Yes I think for many it’s a misunderstanding of what downvotes are for, probably stemming from a misunderstanding of the rewards pool itself.

The reward pool yes and how proper promotion can be done, i.e reserving a certain percentage of the rewards to dao or something, make it not profitable but still promoted. Sigh but then again there's the trending factor that is hoped to being reserved for manually curated posts. Just my thoughts.

Anyway I guess this is that phase going forward,...

I'm using downvotes in a constructive ways just to get revenge downvote back by those people who don't want to change their ways and stop extracting every value they can from this blockchain.

I know why I downvote them and I already explained it to them but they don't seem to listen.

It will be a hard fight against abusive downvotes but if we come together we going to change the future of steem.

IF.... WE.... COME... TOGETHER....

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Yes, we have an uphill battle for sure and I think we have to come together to be successful. Reach out to me and tell me what you have going on.. I’ve looked and can’t seem to figure it out, maybe I can help. 🙂

Oki, will hit u up on Discord to let u know. Get ready for a shitshow xD

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Steem's utility is the ability to draw more from the reward pool. That said, if someone buy's a bunch of stake and uses it to promote their own posts. Then people like you, the NewSteem Culture are going to teach them a lesson, and that lesson is that they shouldn't have invested.

That the utility of Steem is a lie, and not to buy. Also, I really get a kick out of dumb ass shit like your third tag "show me where it hurt you," the whole idea of using child molestation as a parallel proves that downvotes are not an appropriate thing to normalize.

"The film's title comes from the phrase "Show me on the doll where you were touched", often asked of young children who have been the victims of sexual abuse. The film covers multiple lives of victims and victimizers, sharing the pain of how early childhood traumas can continue throughout adult lives." - Wiki

Maybe the downvote posse needs a new metaphor to poke fun at, something less along the lines of child rape. Oh wait, I think I get it.. so the whales are like twisted adults and those with low stake are like defenseless children... and it's funny to fuck them in the ass?

Nope. Yep, that analogy is shit. Try harder.

"Although a team of psychiatrists predicted that only about one-tenth of 1 percent of the participants in the Milgram obedience research would fully obey the experimenter's commands and administer the highest shock level on the generator, to Milgram's astonishment, 65 percent of the participants (26 out of 40) fully obeyed the experimenter's commands completely, despite the convincing cries of agony from the learner. In addition, all participants who reached 450 volts obeyed the experimenter's command to continue by using the 450-volt switch until the experiment ended. " - source

The experimenter in this scenario are the authors of the hard fork.

The more time I spend on Steem, the more I think it is controlled by a small army of self-congratulating psychopaths who have little understanding of human emotions or behavior.

Nailed it in one sentence. Well done.

What's more, STINC added "reward disputes" to their GUI after the first whale wars. These wars caused people to clamor for a fix and put the company under so much pressure that they lazily added it in as an additional catch-all reason for flags. Essentially, what they did was wash their hands of the problem by adding a new rule because there was no way for them to control how people used the flag tool. I think it was a pretty disgusting move because it allows for aberrant behavior.

After the BTC bubble deflated, they moved from not only allowing it but also trying to normalize it by changing the flag to a downvote button and placing it parallel to the upvote button. They're doing this in a desperate attempt to bolster Steem's market value, but they may as well be shooting themselves in the foot or cutting off their nose to spite their face because they're rapidly souring content curators and stakeholders to the platform.

All the while you have the witnesses who signed onto this mess whispering their siren song into your ears "just let it happen," "it will be over soon," muahahaha, "show us on the doll where the whale touched you." Justine didn't say that, but I'm not going to name drop. Name dropping isn't my goal. I aim to shine a light on this issue and let people know how many of the Untermensch content creators view this new downvote culture.

Just imagine going to the antique roadshow and approaching one of their curators/appraisers with an ancient vase from the Ming Dynasty. The curator says it's in good condition, you know, people will pay you top dollar for this, probably somewhere in the realm of $750,000. But I think it's shit. Then the curator takes the vase and smashes it violently on the floor. You look to the ground at the valueless bits and chunks and listen as they walk away laughing maniacally.

That's just one analogy against content disagreement. Content disagreement automatically falls into the reward dispute category because people naturally feel that content they disagree with is "over-rewarded." If you think about it that way, then everything is fair game, opinion flags and all.

There's another argument for why people should live and let live as opposed to downvote, and this is because all stake has merit. The moment a stakeholder thinks their stake doesn't have merit because their upvotes are thwarted, they dump to the market, and this causes the value of steem to go down unless there are buyers ready and willing to altruistically buy stake solely for the purpose to read content all day and curate as a full-time job.

This hurt my feelings.

@skepticology agreed with you 100%

Show me on the doll where the tag hurt you, PZ.

"Show me on the doll where the tag hurt you, PZ."

@r0nd0n It hurts my brain that people ("not Justine") can compare downvotes to child molestation, and then say this behavior needs to be normalized. Some of these people also say that you've got issues if you don't agree with this. Well, shit, call me a fucking outlier. I don't think it's cool, and they're just going to drive people away from the platform by pretending it's cool. (a.) I've always seen downvotes as a bit reward rapey, but when people who promote the normalization of downvotes see them as rapey too, and compare them to the worst kind of rape, then you've got to ask yourself: "Just what in the fuck is going on!?"

Also, if your going to employ game theory, so the game itself can win, then you don't understand game theory. Game theory is so that you can win, not the game itself. But people get confused, especially large stakeholders. They confuse themselves with the game, because if the game wins, then their stake has value and they can dump it like a hot potato. What they fail to realize is when they shed their humanity in an effort to win, and then show with their actions they don't respect the upvote-autonomy of other stakeholders, then nobody is going to want to become a stakeholder and Steem loses.

I mean at this point, with the NewSteem Culture they're promoting, what is the selling point? Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the old Steem. For the most part people just minded their business (save for the special folks) and rewarded content they appreciated with their upvotes. This is very similar to the market, people buy the shit they like and ignore the rest. But now because of some new behavioral modification push we're supposed to buy the stuff we like and go all Gallagher with watermelons on the posts we dislike because reward envy. That's just the stupidest shit I've ever heard of, Jesus Christ. Just imagine if I took that behavior into the real world with me, I'd be triggered by everyone who has a nicer car. Tempted to slash the tires of people with SUVs because "environment".

The author of this post talks about toxic behavior but fails to see the real toxic behavior, and only aims to normalize it. And I know you like to talk about the tragedy of the commons r0n but the truth of the matter is that Steem has always used extra rewards from the pool as a carrot to lure in investors. So, if we don't respect what they do with their upvotes, people will take note, and they won't invest.

Getting back to the tragedy of the commons, as long as their is one witness there will always be Steem and a reward pool that replenishes daily, but without willing stakeholders to steadily prop up the market value by purchasing Steem, then Steem's trade value becomes worthless. Beggers can't be choosy, and you can't have a valuable alt coin without accepting the fact that people who invest in it will either want to make a profit, or a killing.

Thanks for the question r0n, it really made me think. And I think we're really making progress in these sessions, but I see our time is up for today so... We'll see you again next week, same time same place.


P.S. To answer my own question about: "Just what in the fuck is going on?" What's going on is the NewSteem Culture is trying to make an army of people who will fail the Milgram Experiment. The interesting part about this whole phenomenon is that the teachers get confused when the learners shocks back ("revenge downvotes"), and they see it as a travesty or a crime. It's almost laughable TBH. It's like when the U.S. runs a bombing campaign on a foreign country thousands of miles away and then complains about the "cowardly terrorist" who claps back in the form of an IED after having seen their whole family slaughtered.

If downvotes don't hurt (or cause physical harm), which technically they don't, then the same thing applies to revenge downvotes. You can't have it both ways without being a god damned hypocrite. The harms that downvotes cause are psychological, emotional, and potentially financial depending on how you perceive it. It's closest parallel in the real world are economic sanctions, and most of us know that economic sanctions are tantamount to an act of war.

Steem's utility is the ability to draw more from the reward pool.

Steem’s utility is the ability to pool from an inflation pool? How is that a utility? And how is that something sustainable that people would want to invest in? Hard to take you seriously after that.

The rest of your comment is just a bit over the top and therefore I’m not really sure how to respond.

So I’ll go with - I’m not a part of any posse, and I’ve been downvoting long before “new Steem” and I don’t think I mentioned small or large accounts here.. so again, I think your comment is quite disgusting for many reasons.

If you find downvotes something so violent as to point a harmless tag and then bring of child molestation and rape.. and somehow compare them to downvotes and why downvotes shouldn’t be normalized.. then maybe you should go check out whaleshares .. or relax a bit and do some research on what downvotes are and how the rewards pool works.

Or keep getting up in arms over a tag.. cause that makes a ton of sense. I’m sure someone will come along to leave you a comment, as you seem like their type of recruit.

Have a wonderful day.

"How is that a utility?"

If you don't like it, fork it out of the code. Make it so that all votes are equal regardless of your investment.

"And how is that something sustainable that people would want to invest in?"

I'm not saying it is sustainable, but this is what Steem is, it's how they coded it. In order to give their token a market value, they had to give it a utility and that utility was you can draw more rewards if you own more Steem.

"The rest of your comment is just a bit over the top and therefore I’m not really sure how to respond."

Well you used the tag "showmewhereithurtyou", it's not just a meme it has a meaning and it stems from how child psychiatrists talk to children who have been molested. Maybe you didn't know what it meant, maybe I jumped the gun assuming that you did. I think the parallel is quite disgusting too, which is why I pointed it out. Did you not know what that combination of words meant?

If you don't like it, fork it out of the code. Make it so that all votes are equal regardless of your investment.

Because that has anything what so ever to the question regarding what you perceive as A Utility from Steem.

I'm not saying it is sustainable, but this is what Steem is, it's how they coded it. In order to give their token a market value, they had to give it a utility and that utility was you can draw more rewards if you own more Steem.

False. Owning Steem doesn't draw you any, ANY rewards. Locking up your Steem does.

"Because that has anything what so ever to the question regarding what you perceive as A Utility from Steem."

Good point. A utility is a state or quality of being useful. The only reason I can think of for investing in Steem is the bigger upvote, that would be it's utility to me. A bigger upvote allows you to reward yourself more. It used to be right next to the publish button, there was an upvote post button to save you the extra step of upvoting it after you published.

"False. Owning Steem doesn't draw you any, ANY rewards. Locking up your Steem does."

True, but yeah powering-up is the next logical step to get there. Powered-up Steem has merit because it takes longer for it to go back to the market. Now if you show someone with powered up Steem that you won't respect the merit of their upvotes, it gives them good reason to dump their stake to the market which drives prices down.

Now if you show someone with powered up Steem that you won't respect the merit of their upvotes, it gives them good reason to dump their stake to the market which drives prices down.

Because downvoting is "showing someone with powered up Steem that you don't respect their vote". No. That's your lonesome narrative, and if someone thinks so and acts as per your narrative I'll be the first to show them the door and suggest that if they perceive such things as disrespect then it's wiser to avoid the reality of not everyone valuing what they do and scurry fast from the internet, before they are irreparably damaged by what others rate them as.

Yeah, I've seen you tell large stakeholders to fuck off in more or less words, and you've got very little invested here. So, I'm sure you don't care whether they dump to the market or not. In the end when it's downvote happy whales holding the bag and nobody else cares to buy in because they've soured people to the experience, than I guess it's tough titties for them when the musics over.

And I will gladly tell them to fuck off again and again, but you probably think that I should appease some dipshit idiot that invested with hopes of extracting wealth one self vote at a time instead of confronting their short sighted idiocy head on.

O yeah, what does it matter anyway, you think my wallet is indicative of how much I have invested here.

The only reason I can think of for investing in Steem is the bigger self upvote, that would be it's utility to me. A bigger upvote allows you to reward yourself more.

No such utility exists or existed, not unless you are immune to downvoting..

Point is the first interface added reward disputes after they realized their wasn't shit they could do to get people from abusing the flag tool. Since then, they've slowly been trying to manipulate the behavior of users into one of your communist dystopias. People going to hate it, nobody's going to buy Steem now. Sell me on a reason to buy Steem.

Point is the first interface added reward disputes after they realized their wasn't shit they could do to get people from abusing the flag tool.

That's not why 8 months after steam first launched and some 16 hf later that "dispute over rewards" was added as an explicit reason to downvote. It was to dispel any nonsense that downvoting was not to be used over disagreement with rewards and at the time it was changed because Dan had been flagging ozcharts and explicitly stating that it was over disagreement with rewards. You can make up whatever narrative makes you feel better though and you can think I or anyone else owes you a reason to buy steem but tough tittees, i don't give a fuck about selling you on steem, heck, gimme one fucking reason why you are on here if you truly think such batshit crazy crap about the development, and I quote:

"Since then, they've slowly been trying to manipulate the behavior of users into one of your communist dystopias. People going to hate it, nobody's going to buy Steem now."

Fuck out of here with your FUD. This is where you want to be when Jebuz comes back? Spreading fud.

Well “show me where it hurt you” sure as fuck isn’t the same as “show me on the doll where they touched you”.. that’s quite a stretch, don’t you think?

“Show me where it hurt you” is often asked when someone acts as if something physically caused them pain and they are being asked where the pain is - “Show me where it hurt you.” It’s also used to sarcastically point out that whatever the individual is complaining about is silly and obviously didn’t actually harm them.

So while I can understand how someone could jump to that conclusion based on some words in common, the phrase you mentioned is not even what I used or was referring to and quite frankly, wouldn’t.

Well, I'm glad to know you wouldn't go there. Some whales who also enjoy downvoting, float the doll meme a lot in the various channels. If I misinterpreted what you said, then I sincerely apologize. If you look at the link below, even the internet jumps to that conclusion, so I'm glad you could understand how I did.

I'll shuffle on now, but I do think if we don't want people to engage in shameless self-voting with massive stake. Then Steem ought not offer massive votes as a reward for large stakeholders. Either that or mod out self voting entirely, but keep in mind there is a cause and effect to everything. When or if you are able to successfully eliminate "abuse," you might also find that nobody is willing to invest. Without the investors, bad actors or good, the rewards in the reward pool would be meaningless because there are no buyers to prop up the market value of Steem.

Have a good day Justine,
sorry if I read you wrong there.

but I do think if we don't want people to engage in shameless self-voting with massive stake. Then Steem ought not offer massive votes as a reward for large stakeholders. Either that or mod out self voting entirely.


Even better..

Give people the power to counter self voting and "massive votes".

Yeah, because flags are a poor mechanism for dissuading people from self-voting and we know how great your grasp of what work is.

I'm not sure you know what my grasp of work is, weren't you the one trying to sell me on UBI the other month. Is that what work is?

I don't, it was a typo, works.

Nah it’s fine and I understand how it could be taken that way. Maybe it’s a regional phrase used here or something, as it’s pretty common here and don’t believe it’s stemmed from the one you referenced, but hey I could be wrong.

I also think there are whales who enjoy them and use them for revenge, it’s why I mentioned the importance of countering those sorts of downvotes and offered my help in doing so.

I think we have along way to go for Steem to be successful and I agree we have to find a balance. The shared inflation pool always seems to add additional difficulties.

Thanks for your comment and for pointing out some important concerns.

Have a good day.

No, that is not a stretch, that is exactly what it seems to be suggesting. @thoughts-in-time is perceiving the point of the tag exactly how I imagine it should be perceived. It certainly comes off as if it was rooted from that phrase used in criminal cases.

You appear to me, from your content, to be a brash individual that enjoys poking at people where you can. So, I imagine the tag was accurately conveying the joke that seems to be intended.

Well I cannot control how someone perceived a tag, only explain how it was intended.. which I already explained.

Care to show me examples of where I’m poking at people to somehow back up your incorrect perception? As this post was about not making excuses for toxic behavior, as well as offering support to anyone receiving malicious downvotes.. how absolutely horrid of me.

Or was it my last post about the importance of free speech that could be protected on the platform.. or that post I wrote about how amazing the community is.. or was it the cows? Did the cows set you off?

I’m blunt, and honest and after so long of being harassed.. I also don’t take any shit. If you perceive that as me being a brash individual who likes to poke at people.. fair enough, but I’d say you need to work on your perception skills personally, as my actions show nothing of the sort.

Simply saying your actions don't convey it does not make it true. If your behavior signaled to my mind that you are unnecessarily aggressive and insulting then that is what happened. Now, I recognize that some people can be overly sensitive, and hey, that kind of stuff bugs me too.

However, I find your way of speaking "toxic" in the youthful way where young people don't recognize that the world is not black and white and that your words are not imbued with righteousness that can correct wrongs. I was the same, I recognize it in people because I was just like that. Then I read How To Win Friends & Influence People and got over that stage.

Don't misunderstand me, I still rip people a new one from time to time, but still, I try to attack the action, not the person. Your post here derided the human experience of those that differ on the subject of votes than you. If you wanted to be effective, you would have performed better by having a respectful tone, addressing those people's concerns, and suggesting your rationale for having downvotes.

Economics, for the most part, is about * want* with occasional need thrown in. Since Steem is hyper-capitalism tethered to a social network it is likely wise to keep in mind how successful business people tend to approach things. Human experience is deeply respected by the business person. People born with a silver spoon tend to not understand this, but success depends on it.

The entrepreneur keeps a fussy, critical, sensitive mentality when assessing whether to invest in a product or not. This is because they are looking for any possible inconvenience or frustration the customer/buyer might experience that could hinder sales. User experience is king.

Now, why did I say that? You lack that mentality, and it hurts Steem as a product. Steem is a product, plain and simple, and if its user experience sucks it will fail. Your argument is that a good user experience requires a bold flag culture, I can respect you having this opinion, however, it does no good to deride other users that express the flag culture as a negative experience.

What you believe is best for Steem might be true and it might not be. However, disregarding the user experience of others and belittling them is not good for business. Steem is about 11,000+ real users when you discount all the accounts below 500 SP, which means that it is pathetically small. And you wish to alienate users? I encourage you to think that out a bit more.

Maybe you shoulda read the post again, as actually I’m talking about normalizing downvotes and countering (supporting) those that receive them out of malice. Clearly you don’t know what I’m speaking of when I say those who lose it over a downvote are not excusable, unless you think threatening someone’s life is a good user experience?

Again, I think my actions and how I support small accounts as well as how I try to help develop a better user experience are a better factor in determining my goals then your quick judgement. Just because you feel I’m toxic because you read some tone you didn’t like doesn’t really mean much to what the reality of the circumstance is.

You seem to be preaching to me about how I need to accept how others may not feel the same way as me, while also telling me I need to see things your way. Seems we can just agree to disagree.

I think properly used downvotes are vital, I also said I don’t like the way they are abused. If you disagree, write a post about it.

Also, I’m not that young.

Spend some time with trauma victims and you will understand how your words are harmful.

I’ll talk to myself and let you know how it goes. Thanks.

This might come in handy for situations like these...

Hahahahahahahahaahahahah brutal lol


BTW this cookie was amazing. White chocolate chip - cranberry... WOW!!

People just need to chill out and quit taking every single flag as a direct punch in the gut. OMG you got downvoted by the Steem Dufus League!!! It’s the end of the world!!! AAAHHHG

Omg.. if I got a cookie like that with every downvote I would be so happy.. this is how we change it! Quick - figure out how to build that Willy Wonka machine that sent stuff through the tv. People will be begging for downvotes!!! Let’s do this!


@justineh I feel you. I think there should be a check on people who downvote unnecessarily or what do y'all think

Don't be upset, it's a community and there are both type people in a community like and dislike.

The issue I have with downvotes is not how they are intended to be used but how they actually are being used. Malicious intent or not, many wish to simply stay away from the related drama... the other aspect is the rabbit hole people go down when looking into the situation at hand say they stumble into one of the many posts out there.... creates a situation to which many are rudely awakened to deep rooted issues linked to human behaviour!

We may get the majority of people to accept and use them correctly but no matter what happens the stain of bad actors will persist .... I know as I was one in real life and not till actively choosing to be a better human being did I recognize it despite being told so!

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You are absolutely right, you explained it well.

I'm a big fan of downvote. I believe downvoting cases like plagiarism, spam and tag abuse, one should leave a comment.

Posted using Partiko Android

I can agree with that. I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary but it could be used to educate the authors and that could be helpful.

Yes dear

Posted using Partiko Android

Yes, and I saw it coming when I saw that there will be free downvotes with HF21.

Actually all the instances I’m talking about mostly happened before HF21. As I said, now we are working on normalizing them - which will take time.

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I,m little fish here working hard to get some upvote but recently I just got downvotes in my post and I don,t know why, I worked very hard to write this post but they downvote me. I got downvote from the account of theycallmedan , threespeak and many others.

Looks like they followed the ocdb downvote that was a mistake and when ocdb removed their downvote, the others remained. So ocdb then upvoted you to counter those. Unfortunately this looks like a freak mistake and I’m sorry about that. Would have been nice for ocdb to contact their trail and have them remove, but they did vote to make up for that amount lost.

Downvotes should become a regular daily activity and we should react to one being given here and there. Some makes sense, others are some stupid random accounts (and not sure what you can do about that), but nevertheless if the harm is minimal or null should be clearly disregarded.

You got a 49.30% upvote from @minnowvotes courtesy of @steemium!

I feel this is because downvotes were never “normal” here and therefore they were always personal.

This has always been the case. We could probably go back years to see the nasty flag wars of yesterday. The evidence is there. Why is everyone seemingly surprised that HF21 has turned some people nasty?

I agree with you that culture needs to be changed here - and that should be the focus, but you don't have to change the codebase to change the culture. My concern is that by the time downvotes have been "normalised" here, the damaged caused by these "free downvotes" will be irredeemable.

I actually find that the malicious downvotes were worse before free downvotes. And have only seen a few being thrown since then.

I think it’s extremely important for education and explanations to come along with normalizing downvotes.. as well as countering those malicious ones as well. I’m doing my best to help with that, so if you see some feel free to let me know. Thanks.

First, I think it's incredibly ironic that you received downvotes on this post. I hope you were able to keep your shit together. :)

I like what you say about reacting. I remember looking twice upon receiving my first downvote, then just shrugged it off. Fuck it. I have better things to do.

I tell my children a lot (like.. a lot... because they are children, and repetition is good), "You cannot always choose what happens to you, but you can always choose how you react." My 17 year old gets it: don't be a dick. My 13 year old rolls his eyes at me, but, hey, he's 13.

There will be jerks out there in the world that do things just because of whatever reason they have. We need to shrug these people off, not give them notice, and move on with our lives.

Hahahah yeah I receive $20+ downvotes on all my posts lately and had over 1k downvotes distributed to my account previously, so when I say that downvotes are important .. I say that as someone who understands how they feel as well.

(Not to mention the troll that follows me around)

I agree, sometimes people are assholes and sometimes a downvote is just simply saying they feel those rewards would be better distributed elsewhere. I get it feels personal sometimes but if they were normalized I don’t think it would be the same. And yeah I refuse to make excuses for those who turn bat shit crazy over something like a downvote.. I just don’t feel their actions are justified. 🤷‍♀️

Thanks for your comment ❤️

Hello @justineh I hope all is well for you..!!!

Nice to read something from you, well explained and the big thing I can say for now, this is about EDUCATION right..!!well, I think downvotes are a very clear way to clean this amazing ecosystem, I’m talking about myself. When I received 37 downvotes in just one of my publication in the past I understood how important is to understand the ecosystem.

I talked about this when you were taking your first meeting about blockchain..

When I received those downvotes in my content, it waste pasted in my mind very clear, I didn’t take it personal, I just took it as an opinion which were marking me the right way to follow..

I stoped my investment using bots and just continues posting, and waiting for an opportunity to show my content for a wide audience.

I would like to invite you to visit one more time my content and see again what kind of content I am posting.

I understood the Education system..

Have a great time.


Posted using Partiko iOS

I agree. I've been hit a handful of times this last week by a big bully. I get it, it's retaliation, but I don't see the point in letting it bother me... life's too short. :)

Sorry to hear that and thanks for taking it so well. I countered a few. Feel free to reach out if they continue. 🙂

Thanks so much to you and everyone else! Totally wasn't expecting this!
Seriously, you all just made my day... 😊

The best revenge is a life well lived - or in Steem-terms: Ignore them :)

(Ok, from a small fishie like me that might look a lot like hiding... but the result is the same)

Thanks for helping to normalize downvotes, appreciated.

It is their fault. It is 100% their fault that a downvote turned them into a toxic human being who wants to cause harm through any means possible, and saying otherwise makes you part of the problem.

I 100% disagree

Making this statement is like saying there is no such thing as emotions taking over rational behavior in human nature. The reality is that downvotes trigger people like crazy especially when they serve injustice and only a minority of people have are actually capable to overwrite their emotional drives. It's not their fault, it's how the brain works.

To regard downvotes as "normal" has no equivalent in the physical world, nor do I know of other Internet places where such is practiced. That one should not take the displeasure received from other people personally is not wrong. And although this is a mature way of looking at things and being thematized in philosophies or religious practices, there is no such general attitude to Steemit.

I do not know of any common practice where there is an equivalent for a down-vote. If you're rated on amazon or ebay, that's customer satisfaction information, but you won't deduct anything from the purchase price because someone got a bad rating unless it's clear fraud.

An employee who does a bad job will not get anything deducted from his salary at the end of the month, at most he will be criticized and made aware of his mistakes so that he can improve. It makes a difference whether you get something taken away and no matter what amount it is, even if it is only a small amount, the symbolism behind it says that you can take something away from someone because it is up to a judgement. The difference between plagiarism and the attitude that someone has "earned too much" from something is huge. Plagiarism or downloading paid content is illegal and punishable by a fine.

However, Newsteem states that you can vote down content because you don't like how much money someone has made with a post. This is entering a devil's kitchen and if it is actually believed that someone who receives a downvote has the maturity to take it calmly, this is a repression of the reality of humans psyche.

It would indeed be helpful not to care if someone takes something away from you. But in fact we are far from it. It would be like the attitude that someone takes coins or notes out of your wallet just because it works or because a new form of rule has been proclaimed.

The explanation that the upvotes and downvotes received don't really "exist" as long as the 7-day window is still open is a logical explanation, but it doesn't accept the illogicality of humans. Nowhere is there an established habit that a sum expressed in numbers under the article perceived as "my" blog is not already considered "mine". Once the payout amount appears, people consider it "their payout". Any reduction of this amount is a pain for the ego.

Calling such pain "unjustified" negates the strong ego in people and wants to put it in the corner to make it look like an offended child. Any increase in payout is a joy for the ego and it wants "more of it". To achieve that the ego does not hurt when something is reduced, it would have to cause the ego to be completely indifferent to the "more" at the same time. To both the "more" and the "less" the ego would have to behave calmly. Everyone who is able to let go of his ego is at the same time able to do without incentives and at thereby not have the impression of having to sacrifice something.

In order to attain such mental maturity, people must first come to make nothing of the disapproval of others and welcome it as a helpful hint that other people wish them well.

We are generally far from this ideal and it is doubtful that in online groups such an ideal can dominate or be fixed in space-time, as life is constantly changing and new conflict situations are constantly arising. It therefore remains only for each person to do the work with himself personally and not to expect others to show a maturity that one has to work hard for oneself again and again. Another person's reaction can always be such that he or she is not able to bear the responsibility that is expected of him or her. It is already difficult enough to learn to assess this in friendships. Therefore, it would be wise to always take into account the probability that there are lots of vulnerable egos.

Nobody on Steemit - not even in the offline world - can pin himself to the chest to have given up his ego. That everyone knows this about themselves as well as about others is a sign of intelligence, not stupidity or childishness.

I just got my first downvote the other day on a veggie burger post, which ironically is my most successful post yet.

everything will be alright

So, I am kind of confused. You have big votes here from tipu, appreciator and therising but no downvotes from newsteem. Do you have a free pass?

They all apparently started “manually curating”.. I’ve not bought votes on this post or any others and you can see so in my wallet. I also have close to $30 in downvotes on this post (not sure what you mean about “no downvotes from newsteem”), so no I would say I don’t have a free pass. Also part of this payout is going to the Steem.dao as mentioned.

Hope that answers your question, feel free to throw a downvote on though.. I encourage it.

Oh I see. They are "manually curating". I guess if you are paying the tribute to steem.dao then that would make more sense. You're also defending the new downvote culture in plenty of other peoples threads too, so I guess that makes you a bit special.

BTW, I don't consider haejin to be newsteem and I don't think anyone else does either.

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