Superlinear

in #steem6 years ago

The goal of this post is simply to cement just one aspect of the recent Curation Proposal Fad in my mind so that I understand its effects better.

First, what is this n^x curve people keep spouting on about?

This refers to how much weight your vote has. For example, in n^2 weighting, someone voting with twice the SP (assuming full weights for simplicity) has 4x the weight.

But what does weight mean? The reward pool is distributed according to what fraction your weight has relative to the total weight. In a world with just a 10 SP voter and a 20 SP voter, that means the 10 SP vote is assigning 100/500 of the pool and the 20 SP vote is assigning 400/500 of the pool.

So: Twice the SP, Four times the influence in n^2 weighting. Personally, I'm not even sure why there should be any multiplicative bonus. Linear just makes sense in principle and is a much simpler rule.

The theme behind this kind of change is that it encourages concentration. Less posts to be rewarded higher values, and less people effectively deciding what is rewarded. This theme is already a problematic one: do we really trust those with stake to pick the right posts? Much less police themselves (re: downvoting). In a linear world, we can see that some of those with stake aren't doing much good with it. In a superlinear world, it's worse.

Self-voting obviously is more attractive in a superlinear weighting versus linear, when considering this change in isolation. And if the top holder has that much more influence, it makes it that much harder to counter votes of high SP abuse. (Note: in the referenced proposal, this is likely why we may need both discounted downvote and preferably smaller exponents, but just want to make sure I understand it without those components first.)

There is one variant that seems worth mentioning briefly, though a little awkward: capping the max assignable weight on a post. This would mean that even if a large stakeholder separated into many accounts of maximum weight, the power becomes linear relative to other whales (can only stack max weight votes). This still makes it a whale's game, but makes it so the first place whale is not that much more powerful than the second place whale, or that whales have a chance to stack votes to bring down a larger whale.

I was playing with curation formulas on the side as well just now and did not find anything too different when comparing to their vote value. Could be missing something of course.

Superlinear makes sense if it wasn't tied to stake, as suggested in this thought experiment. Though there is a comment there about how when we had n^2 in the past there was less self voting. I don't really see how that's possible. Unless there were more whale policing? I don't know. Maybe someone can clear that up for me. Actually if anyone can really point to why n^2 was so good for us (if true) that might help too. I wasn't here for it.

If there's any misconceptions I've fallen into for superlinear, specifically, I would like to know. Though I'm anyway following the discussion on the other posts and this seems to be correct.

I'm not sure if I'll get to analyzing all three proposed effects from this post by @kevinwong but suffice it to say that my line of thinking now is matching that of @smooth at the moment.

And just food for thought here. People cite that incentives need to align, but what if I told you they already align, but you have to pay attention to the time scale? As in... the long term value. For example, what if token investors start actually paying attention to token allocation and aren't happy with it? Basically, why aren't we sinking already? There's so many different things happening right now, and it's really hard to say. And all of this is kind of useless anyway because you can be like "well steem used to be 5$, blame the behavior. See?" But that isn't productive because you cannot isolate this bear market from general cryptocurrency bearishness. Wouldn't it be great if we had a market that reflected accurately the sentiment?

And about content. Are we rewarding content, or are we rewarding networking? Engagement? Which is it? And which reward scheme is better if we want to reward the latter? Do we want a full, rich economic system? Or simply a faulty content appraiser? I'm not saying things are peachy either, but it helps to know what the real goal is.

Anyway I seem to have strayed off the intent of this post. I'll probably find my way into the main discussions once I understand things better. Maybe.

Posted using Partiko Android

Sort:  

Whats funny to me is that everyone is so sure about their own proposal, their own idea. "This would be better, that would be better".
I always found Kevins idea flawed.
This is basically the form of his post:

  1. Point out bad things happening on the platform everyone agrees on, in a concise and well worded way to get people on your side.
  2. Get people on your side. (Not too hard since hes influential, has a large upvote)
  3. Push the idea that benefits his position the most.

Now i know he might be doing this out of a sense of wanting the platform to succeed, but what hes actually doing is acting from his point of view.
We all act the same way but some try to understand that part of themselves.

See the problem here is that youre essentially killing the small stake holder and reducing their effect on the platform.
You give big stake holders more power. You increase large stake holders income. You centralize the platform even more.

For any of this to work you would need a large number of passive stake holders that invest in bots or whatever to start curating... That will never happen. If they are passive now, they will remain passive.
At least with bots you can get something from them. a 10% ROI, some exposure, etc..
Do what Kevin is proposing and they will either leave or just program a bot that will post inspirobot quotes and auto-self vote...

Nah.. This is a proposal only from the perspective of a active whale, (dont get me wrong i think the guy is great) that feels he is missing out.
And indeed he has started doing what others he criticizes are doing..

I think its high time we forget about the whales and focus on communities. Thats really the only thing you can depend on.

If they are passive now, they will remain passive.

This is a position I'm fairly certain about too. I'm still waiting on other arguments because others seem to be thinking that superlinear criticizers (or with whatever magical combination they think is right) are missing a point. But.... still I have not seen it.

And to your point about benefiting larger stake, it's really hard for me not to see that as what the proposal will end up doing. I suppose the argument is that "Yes, larger stake will be better off, but we will also make the platform better". And like you, I'm also not convinced.

And the odd part, specific to your bot farming-- that's exactly what Kevin's proposal said would not happen since they would be motivated to curate, but I have yet to see why that is even true. A passive auto post-farming bot is what you need to prevent, and I don't see any proposition that kills them. (I assume the discounted downvote pool is an attempt at it, and hell, maybe we should try it. I have no idea what will happen.)

The logical thing to assume is that people rarely change if not forced to do so. Since you cant force anyone to do anything here, let alone whales, nor should you, their behaviour will remain the same.

A discounted downvoting pool goes both ways. This again empowers whales most of all. Who in their right mind would risk getting their blog destroyed. Not only are you increasing their income, not only are you increasing their influence with the 1.3 superlinear but you are essentially placing the active whales (thats the most important destinction) in a position of power far beyond their current position if you stack all those changes, where their decisions who to upvote and who to downvote, who deserves what and when, affect the platform so much more.

At least now you can buy votes from them and earn something. Not depend completely on the whims of whales. Im all for fixing the trending page but that can be changed by fixing the UI and adding filters. Such a drastic change Kevin is proposing wouldnt do any good imo.

Posted using Partiko Android

This is interesting. The way I see it, the fact that Steem and SBD have been low recently reflects the lack of investors compared to, say, Bitcoin. This is partly because the platform is still not widely understood or even known about (it took Bitcoin several years for its value to increase beyond a few cents).
As awareness grows, one way to attract more investors is to give them benefits – and voting weight distribution is one of them. It's one reason that I invested fiat into Steem Power and Steem, despite the clear risk that would be perceived by any conventional financial advisor!
If more people invested in Steem and SP, everyone on the platform would benefit because the value of all our holdings would increase.
My increased stake means I can spread my voting more widely. I'm very careful about what I vote for, but I've recently started autovoting for the first time ever. I'm careful about my curation, checking up on it regularly. I want to vote for people who give value, and also reward newcomers, which is why I autovote for the Welcome Wagon. If good work is rewarded, the platform is more likely to grow, and that will help my investment. I think we just need patience.

People keep arguing over the technical implementation, but at the end of the day any implementation can be gamed. The issues of the platform are cultural.

Too much focus on short term value extraction and not enough on long term capital appreciation (via building the ecosystem)

I have been here only just over a year and even I can see the trend. Now where is that reset button.....?

I think you just summarized human society in less than 100 words.

Where is dat darn reset button already, indeed.

Haha. That is funny....and also probably true. Human is as Human does.

For what it's worth, I think we are up for a reset of the global monetary, financial and political systems (at least) in the very near future.

I don’t believe we can envisage a “reset” at this point. There’s too much rotten at the top yet not enough anger at the bottom to reset, much worse needs to happen before a reset will be considered for possible by those at the top.

Yet, solutions like UBI could turn back the clock some decades. Turn back to a society where there was belief and less stigma. And, possibly, create new entrepreneurial stimulus for the many.

Yet, let’s not delude ourselves... the outcome of UBI - especially when opted for as a necessity rather than an ethos - will be not different from what we have now.

So why UBI? It will give us some decades more. Some time to whether reach that much needed and then accepted reset because everything has gone south and exploded. Or some time to possibly come up with new systems or at least create new “isles” people can consciously opt-in to.

I guess there's something to cloning it and making sure the right people are whales? Haha... wait I think people are trying that... But anyway, I think it would be more ideal if we really didn't even have to point at whales at all, and I'm rather hopeful for something disruptive come SMTs. In the meantime, I guess I'm playing steem monsters :D

It is indeed. I'm surprised it has taken this long.

Yet to be seen if any lessons have been learnt or whether one cluster of circle jerking whales is just going to be replaced by another. I'm cautiously optimistic ;)

Well written post Eon... I'm going to ruminate on this one for a while.

I keep on insisting on culture and get "debunked" often, but... I guess I'm not alone. Or maybe you don't count... I'm not sure.

The biggest problem with “culture” is that actually... there is a lot of awesome culture happening. But it doesn’t necessarily lead to distribution.

And that... that’s societal.

The even bigger problem is that we can not really change that, at least not yet. Not until things have gone that bad that “people have nothing to lose anymore so they just lose it”, which is when the top needs to compromise. Until then we need to continue preaching the “culture” thing, all while trying to steer clear of coercion. Because then we wouldn’t be tolerant anymore either and that would be just as bad as whallow the wrongs, maybe even worse. Because coerced collaboration is not sustainable.

Culture... Hmm... Oh as opposed to aligning incentives? Well, I think if we could align incentives, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I am not convinced right now. And also, I still believe in the nice pretty story involving the prisoners and the crabs that makes it not like prisoners. And I really meant it when I told you last time that "there are probably not enough crabs", or something to that effect. Ha...

I know absolutely nothing about this discussion but I guess if we had a curve n^(1+a) with a an small constant it would not be that bad since you could pick it sufficiently small that people are not incentivised to create extra accounts for self voting.

Posted using Partiko Android

It's not about creating extra accounts for self voting though. For any a > 0 it's more beneficial to having all of your stake in one account to take advantage of superlinear weights. Delegations also I suppose is interesting as well because multiple parties could delegate to a single more powerful entity to try to take advantage as well.

Posted using Partiko Android

Ah okok. With bad I meant the increased inequality resulting from a non linear rewarding system.

It would be interesting to make that a dependent on a function which depends on how concentrated SP is. Then it is possible penalise high concentration of SP :)

Posted using Partiko Android

so what reward curve do we have now ?

1:1 matched with stake?

Linear. So yes. 20 SP vote twice as in influential as 10 SP vote, etc.

Great write up :)
Honestly Steem will have to decide what Steem really is...
Bitcoin did it before at a cost of a split-Steem I hope doesn't...
The community will need to unite even if it costs a fork(I can't believe I am saying 😢) but the less fighting that done, the more steem can buidl :P
Then again I might be bringing what I saw in Bitcoin and relating to steem🤷‍♂️

Hi @eonwarped!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 4.714 which ranks you at #1465 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has improved 1 places in the last three days (old rank 1466).

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 256 contributions, your post is ranked at #20.

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • Some people are already following you, keep going!
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Good user engagement!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

Congratulations! This post has been chosen as one of the daily Whistle Stops for The STEEM Engine!

You can see your post's place along the track here: The Daily Whistle Stops, Issue 286 (10/19/18)

Coin Marketplace

STEEM 0.18
TRX 0.14
JST 0.029
BTC 57382.38
ETH 3075.07
USDT 1.00
SBD 2.39