Jesus is the God of the Old Testament
It will also offend Jews, Muslims and Atheists too, but they are not my target audience.
In fact, I recommend that non-Christians use this opportunity to click away from this article just as fast as they can. Why listen to me chew out my fellow Christians, especially when it will offend you as well?
We'll play a little Jeopardy music for 30 seconds until the room clears...
Still here Christians? Good.
The reason I'm writing this is because of some false arguments I see other well-meaning Christians making in their apologetics efforts all over this and other forums. The most recent is here: Islam Has Nothing to Do with Terrorism
Here is how the argument typically goes:
Christian: "Muhammad advocated beheading infidels, Jesus commanded that we love our enemies."
Muslim: "Whoa! What about all the mass killing God orders in the Old Testament?"
Christian: "That's the Old Testament! I'm talking about Jesus!"
Guys, have we really become so weak we can't even face Who our God really is? Yes, Jesus is loving. Yes He was willing to take on human form and die for us. Yes, He is nice to little children and lost sheep.
... and yes, He will not hesitate to kick your butt or to wipe all but 8 people off the face of the planet.
Have we spent so much time listening to milk toast sermons that we no longer can handle the truth? Let me recall a few episodes and verses that should be familiar to you:
- For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - Hebrews 10:31
- But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God. - 2 Sam 6:7
- Jesus said, "You study the [Old Testament] Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me," - John 5:39
- Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" - John 8:56-58 This is the same Lord who spoke to Moses from the burning bush and called Himself "I AM" in Exodus 3:14. It was the pre-incarnate Jesus that Abraham unsuccessfully pleaded with to save Sodom and Gomorra from destruction in Genesis 18:16-33.
- Jesus refers to Himself as Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last in both Old and New Testaments: Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God." Isaiah 48:12 includes, "I am he; I am the first, and I am the last." In Revelation 1:8 Jesus repeats this: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"
- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:1-3,14
- I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. - Revelation 19:11-16
I could go on, but you get the idea. We do unbelievers a disservice when we only talk about His patient, loving and meek "Lamb of God" side. People need to know they should take the Lord seriously! How many rebels have you seen with the raw nerve to say to the Lord, "I don't like what you did to people in the Old Testament so I reject you." Really?
They think they can get away with that largely because we don't give them the full story about God Almighty.
Jesus is all knowing, all powerful, amazingly loving, slow to anger ...and will not strive with men forever!
Quit apologizing for Him when he shows the Lion side of His nature.
That Lion side is coming soon and it won't be pretty for those who haven't been properly "calibrated" because we have misled them by marketing Him all warm and cuddly like a typical political candidate.
He doesn't plan to give us a vote.
Aslan is not a tame lion!
An intresting read... don't dismiss it just because...
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2030273.God_Wants_You_Dead
Here you can read the full book...
https://www.scribd.com/document/2532766/God-Wants-You-Dead
I beg to differ. Sir
For many years scientists used to argue about whether light was a particle or a wave.
They finally decided that the only theory that would explain all the facts was that light had a dual nature - sometimes acting as a particle and sometimes acting as a wave.
This is a good way to understand the Dual Nature of Jesus. He is fully God and fully man. When you find a verse that proves He was a man, good for you. That's like doing an experiment that proves light is a wave. I will then show you a verse that proves He was God. That's like doing another experiment that proves light is a particle.
Both are fully true. Proving one does not unprove the other.
Scientists now believe that light is both a wave and a particle – a property which they term the wave-particle duality.
Theologists now believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man - a property which they term the hypostatic union.
When Thomas recognized Jesus, he addressed Him as "My Lord AND My God." Jesus did not rebuke him, but instead acknowledged his correct belief.
When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM" the Scriptural experts of His day knew exactly what he was claiming, and said so: “We are not stoning You for any good work, said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
You cannot prove that Jesus was not God by pointing to verses that show He was a man any more than you can prove light is not a particle by pointing to an experiment that shows it is a wave.
This illustrates perfectly what happens when the limited human mind is faced with trying to make sense of the Infinite. If you, Stan, can contemplate that light is both wave and particle - why can you not contemplate that Christianity, from a limited human perspective,and another, or all other, religious views are "true"?
Christians believe Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead to save those who believe this.
Muslims do not believe this and therefore cannot be saved by it.
The two are fundamentally incompatible, since one denies the very basis of the other.
If you watch the various videos on The Simulation Hypothesis, you'll discover that sometimes the only thing determining whether a photon is a wave or a particle is whether you are looking at it. One theory that explains this is that we are living in a simulation that doesn't bother rendering a particle unless someone is looking at it - just like video game simulations work. So examining an apparent contradiction leads us to a new discovery.
Many humans are familiar with physical bodies being indwelt by a spirit. Jesus' physical body is indwelt by the Spirit of God. Thus, He can be physically a human and spiritually God at the same time. This is just rough metaphor to aid human understanding and not the full story. Jesus was God the Son and communicating with God the Father in the beginning before he ever took on human form. When they say they are One is means more than just "in agreement." Think of how the Star Trek Borg collective was One and you are getting closer.
"We are the Borg. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile."
On the other hand, if Jesus says that the only way to be saved is believing in what He did for us on the cross and Muhammad says that he didn't do anything on the cross then these are not dual realities these are contradicting statements. They can't both be true.
Extend this to all other religions. Jesus says he's only giving life to those who believe in him and not for any other reason. All other beliefs contradict Him by saying that there are other things humans can do. This is irresolvable. If there turns out to be even one other Way, then Jesus is wrong.
But doesn't being a wave deny being a particle? How can you hold to that?
Very good point.
Ananias & Sapphira "only" lied to the Holy Spirit and were slain for it in the New Testament.
"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." (Deuteronomy 4:24) Old Testament
"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29) New Testament
"For I am the LORD, I change not..." (Malachi 3:6a) Old Testament
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8) New Testament
Your message to Christians reminds me of the message to the Hebrews = SAME GOD (JESUS)
You don't tug on superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old lone ranger
And you don't mess around with Him.
Amen. I like the Jim Croce reference.
Love your post. You could have mentioned how close we are to His return!
Other quotes from the Lion of Judah:
(paraphrased)
He is not as fluffy and puffy as is preached in "Christian" churches. So I no longer tag my self as "Christian" but rather a non-Jewish, believing Jew.
Interesting...maybe we can discuss about your last line sometime in the future...
John 17:1
Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. And this is the way to have eternal life—to know YOU, the ONLY true God.
Jesus was not talking to a mirror here.
True. They are three persons and can interact.
True. They are one God.
You need to look at ALL verses of Scripture and find the one understanding that matches them ALL.
I have shown you many more verses that require the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be One.
The standard concept of Trinity is based on harmonizing ALL verses. It is the only understanding that fits ALL the data.
So the doctrine of the Trinity can easily explain John 17:1 but your non-trinity understanding cannot explain, for example, Isaiah 9:6.
Isaiah 9:6 said, “And HIS NAME will be called.. The verse did not said, “And HE IS the ...
I have lots of classmates named Jesus, it does not mean they are the Jesus.
Jewish Publication Society of America, verse:
“For a child is born unto us. A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibborabi-ad-sar-shalom.”
The Hebrew name Pele- joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom is translated as, “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.” The name mentioned in Isaiah 9:6 is not a series of names but one long name.
Exactly. One long name for the child born to be the messiah, the eternal King, that makes it clear that He is One with God the Father.
Stan when u have time watch this,
"Elijah" which means "God the Lord", it doesn’t mean that Elijah is himself the God.
One's state of being is not necessarily determined by the meaning attached to his name.
You see Muslims have no problem with what u just quoted. The problem comes from understanding the context. Stan is claiming Jesus to be God, the "Alfa & Omega" but even in ur quote this is not the case, we also need to understand what ur saying in it's context, e.g, all the messenger on they given times, they was the only way to eternal life, who so ever follow them as followed the father, and know the father as the only true God and this also apply to Jesus, who ever followed him at his time as followed the way to the fathers and so on. But this does not make him to be "God or the Son of God "
Quran 4:171
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
But Jesus' own words to Nicodemus in John 3:16-18 do:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
You guys need to thoroughly study the Scriptures. I have provided you with scores of verses proving who Jesus is. You keep coming back to every new thread as if its a New Day and all previous discussions never happened. If you won't study and learn, you will be stuck where you are forever.
With all due respect, u can't qoute "John" 3:16-18" as evidence and claim it's Jesus on words that's weak evidence. If u produce that in court it will get througn out.
Then don't quote the Koran. It is BY FAR the weakest document on discussion here.
Yes, I quoted that Jesus is different from One True God.
May bad, so what's ur stance on Jesus?
Jesus is the one sent by the One True God and the Mediator between God and Man.
Amen.
100% agreed.
@stan, I cannot claim to have studied the Bible enough and the world is full of temptations and obligations that unfortunately leave so little time for that.
Even so, from what I know, you are right and I thank you for posting about it. Jesus was indeed the one meeting Abraham, the one speaking to Moses and giving him the Ten Commandments.
As it pertains to the Trinity discussion, I think this overcomes our understanding, how God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost can be one yet separate persons. It is something I have come to accept as everything points to it and maybe, one day, I will be able to comprehend its entirety.
One other thing coming to mind while reading the comments on the post is that if we stumble so much upon this subject, I don't know what will happen when we will talk about Jesus' human nature on Earth, heaven/hell, the soul, the afterlife, the Sanctuary, the Book of Life and so on.
Agreed. I think the most helpful point we can make is that any interpretation of one verse of Scripture must be consistent with all other Scripture. If there are two ways to interpret a verse, choose the one that agrees with all other Scripture.
When you find two verses that seem to disagree, it is an opportunity to learn something. Don't just pick the one that agrees with your prior thinking. Find an understanding that makes both true - for they are both true.
What I have seen is that the Bible explains itself. Found a doubting verse? Think it is so due to translation? Keep reading and see the meaning further. It is always explained again so that it confirms the true meaning.