Are disruptive protests counter-productive?
So, the farmers are bringing their tractors back into Den Haag this week... which means that the city is going to pretty disrupted. Now, this affects us pretty heavily, as we don't live near our school and we have to travel across the city each day to get to school in the morning and afternoon. Today, I tried to take a detour and leave early to try and avoid the main blockage points... but alas, I still managed to get certain bits of it.... So, tractors parked across a main intersection whilst the rest of convoy made it's way over to join the main protest.
The Dutch farmers are pretty cranky about being blamed for nitrogen pollution and there appears to be a proposal to limit and cut back on livestock to further reign in their contribution to the nitrogen emission. Now, this isn't a piece of news that I'm following too closely... modern agriculture does contribute a fair amount to nitrogen pollution, which in many was is much much worse than the more publicised carbon pollution. However, it appears that problem seems to be about the balance of what is being cut.... as the airport seems to be exempt from the cuts? Again, I'm not 100% up to speed on the problem and the data... and unlike most internet users, that means I'm unable to come up with a conclusion or even a position....
However, I wonder if the idea of disruptive protests really have the effect of raising support for their position? To me, disruptive protests (I would also include the Climate Change activists, Extinction Rebellion disrupting cities in Australia in this) are quite counterproductive.... I don't know enough about the Dutch farmers, but I do understand (I wish that people would use the word understand, rather than believe....) and the science and the risks behind climate change. I disagree with the idea of disruptive protests to bring about change (for these topics... it is a bit different for things like protests for civil freedom/disobedience.... but that is a different thing entirely!).
I have the impression that these protests are better for looking and feeling like you are doing something... rather actually getting on with the hard work of actually forming solutions... and in some ways, they polarise the public into positions that might be somewhat counter-productive to actual negotiations and progress. The quiet people who are actually getting things done are often not the ones who are in front of the cameras.... however, guess who will often take the credit?
Now, I wouldn't go as far as calling these people "terrorists" or anything like that... but they do have the effect of making easy straw men for opposing points of view to focus upon... and I really think that they tarnish the causes that they proport to be in support of....
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Ah, @bengy, I had to come and read this. I live in the land of protest action, which action is not confined to tractors disrupting traffic, but a whole lot more including rocks in the road, burning tyres, stone-throwing and the like.
First, I'll nail my colours to the mast. The Husband is a former commercial farmer. That said, in the late 60s into the 70s and he was ranching beef in the then Zimbabwe for a British multinational, their management took a principle decision not to make use of things like growth hormone to speed up the growth of the cattle. Similarly, all the cattle they produced were sent to slaughter from pasture and not from feedlots. He subsequently was involved in small scale dairying, pig and trout farming and when he retired he was in the poultry industry. He was responsible for rearing point of lay pullets. He loathes the production of broilers which, he says, is inhumane. Oh, and he has enormous respect for Dutch farmers and some of their practices - he had to do with some when he was still working.
All of that said, I agree with @abitcoinskeptic: the world needs commercial farmers because people need to eat. Cities cannot feed themselves - even with urban gardening. I also agree with @free-reign that the big commercial farmers - certainly here - do overdo everything. We see it in the big fruit and grape producers around the village that spray and fertilise, and, and, and... There are the smaller producers who use more sustainable methods but they cannot produce in the same quantity.
What I don't get is food dumping - just because it's a surplus and people don't know what to do with it. There are so many parts of the world where food is scarce and it occurs to me that the world probably produces enough food, and it's the distribution that's a problem. As usual it's a matter of politics and Politics, I suspect. And, of course money and power.
We will be converting our plot next door into a little market garden. The goal is to be natural, but because the environment has been so screwed up, it's going to be a bit of a tall order. We will grow enough for our own use and for sale. It won't be huge quantities and, I have no doubt that there will be surplus at some point. I will have to be pickling, freezing, preserving that. Those products will also be for our own use and for sale.
This brings me back to the farmers. My understanding of farmers is that they are, by and large, quite bovine (ha!) and slow to rise. So, by the time they actually do protest, like yesterday, they will probably have exhausted every avenue and have now been provoked to such an extent that they see no other option.
Hope there weren't too many blockages today. Think of us in South Africa: scheduled electricity outages are back - for at least the next week. Going to have to plan life around all of that!
Fiona
Sounds like you guys were on the more sustainable end of farming practices... something that got lost in the intervening decades though... the balance had definitely shifted to volume and profit over other concerns... how that ended up is neither really here nor there... the point is that in general, we are perhaps overbalanced for those outcomes, and it will be painful to readjust the balance. That goes to the points of @abitcoinskeptic and @free-reign... of course, it would be ridiculous that we would adjust overnight... but there will be pain for everyone, farmers will see cuts in either income or the available techniques open to use... and consumers will (and should) pay a higher price for food in return... I don't think it is going to be a pain free transition away from destructive industrial farming. The trouble is that no one wants any of the adjustment pain (normal reaction....)... I can't speak for farmers, but as a consumer of food... I am resigned to the fact that I will need to (and should...) adjust my buying habits (or pay a premium) and eating habits if I want to be part of the solution (and in turn, I think that food producers should be encouraged by market forces and regulation to act in a more sustainable way). However, not everyone thinks this...
Food dumping is a crazy waste... I'm not sure that it is politics... I think it is more to do with marketing (I think that marketing is the bane of the modern world... the idea that selling a product gets to be more important the actual product itself!)... people want good looking food in the first world, and the rest gets wasted. Unfortunately, this should be a market problem (as long as it isn't unsafe to eat...)... have the good looking fruit/veg... and have the bad and funny looking things. Price them differently... see what people will actually buy if given a choice!
It is quite possible that the farmers here have reached an impasse in negotiations... and that they have felt that this is their only recourse... of course, I don't think that people do things because they are counter-productive... but perhaps there should be an analysis of whether this sort of thing is productive or is polarising. After all, it is hard to negotiate on a polarised topic (see Climate Change... or anything like that....). After all, doing something (protesting) when you are backed up against a wall doesn't mean that the outcome is better than the status quo....
Anyway, as far as I understand this specific topic. If the farmers are being unfairly (tricky word that one...) singled out for a larger share nitrogen cuts over other sectors... then yes, I tentatively support this cause. But I would support the idea that cuts are raised across the sector to come up to the farmer's levels... not the reduction of farmer's levels to match the lower cuts elsewhere. However, that said... I'm not across the nuances of this particular problem (it's a bit tricky in a different language!)... so, I'm not really sure that I can intelligently comment.
Food dumping, I regret to say, is both money and politics. It has huge impact on the agricultural sectors of countries like South Africa. The poultry industry here is taking a great deal of strain. Google the term and see what comes up.
Anyhow, all of that said, seems we all agree that we need to go the sustainable route. The sooner, the better.
Yeah, it's hard not to resent the people who are messing up your routine. Especially when you're trying to take care of a family. I guess it does get some attention, but like you say... it's not like you're suddenly well-educated on the issue just because they're blocking traffic.
Now, if they stopped sending food to the cities and people got hungry...
From a personal point of view... I don't resent them. I took extra time and didn't expect to be anywhere in a hurry. In the end, if I'm late... i'm late... and I'm curious enough to read more about it. But I would say that the vast majority (no evidence...) is not quite like that... and that the disruption into their lives would be negative for the cause and there would be no effort to educate themselves about the cause at hand... thus perhaps counter-productive.
I'm not sure that stopping food would be productive either... but something along those lines... perhaps an increase in a price to represent the lost volume or something like that...
Making mass demonstration is a right here in the US but I tell people often no matter what you are doing you must show respect. Blocking a main road for instance will not make people want to support your cause bit instead makes you a cry baby and brat. Martin Luther King told all his protesters to wear their finest church clothes and be as civil as possible. This makes other see you in the positive light and shows you as human not as just a talking head. Good post buddy!
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Yes... I think it really should be a protected right to protest.... however, like you say... there is a productive and intelligent way to use the right, and then there are ways that might end up being counter-productive in the short or long term. Maybe you achieve the short term goals, but at what cost to the longer term picture?
I do wonder if people have lost sight of the larger picture when taking these actions... not a comment on the causes themselves, but is the battle more important than the war?
Not claiming to be be an expert by any means, but my first 14 years of life were spent growing up on a farm, and I started learning about farming as soon as I could walk.
My opinion on any issue that involves mostly recent (past 40 years) poor practices in farming that present negative effects to our environment, health and well-being, I have to put the blame on corporate farming, 100%.
They overdo everything; fertilization, round-up and other glyphosate based weed control agents, antibiotics... you name it and they overdo it, because more is always better in their minds, which operate solely on simply doing any and everything, no matter how harmful, to increase their profits.
I'd likely be supporting the farmers if they aren't corporate.
I have to agree with this no the topic of mass industrial farming... which has chosen a balance towards volume and profit over other aspects. From the purely economic point of view, it makes sense... after all, a company doesn't have to price in externalizes that their don't directly bear costs for... so if there is antibiotic resistance being bred.... well, it doesn't affect their bottom line... until later. Of course, just because it makes sense doesn't mean that it is right... for me, I would argue that the true cost of the practices aren't being factored into the final price of the product.... and this is where we are for most of the pollution debate. How to price this sort of thing... for decades, we've said that pollution is essentially free... and now we know that the costs of this are not exactly free... they are just borne by someone else!
I'm not 100% sure if this protest is specifically corporate or not... it seems to be a broad swathe of the farming sector... so it is likely to be a mix.
The farmers have every right to protest as anyone else. May as well do it in the city where it will attract attention.
They are adding nitrogen and phosphates etc, but they send the production to cities. We need food.
I generally prefer soft authoritarianism, but Their actions make sense in their minds.
Oh definitely... I don't argue with the right to protest... however, having the right and exercising it doesn't neccessarily make for a productive stance for your cause! Due to the fact that I live in a city that is both the Dutch government seat and home to a few international courts... I do get to see slightly more than a normal share of protests. There are a few where I do question the effectiveness of such an action... I'm curious and generally hard to put out... so, the protests don't really bother me too much and sometimes I will go a learn about what it is... but I would argue that most people would be really annoyed and would have a negative reaction to the cause instead. Thus, is it really a good way to publicise your cause? After all... not all publicity is good publicity!
Yes... I answered the problem of food/pollution in a previous comment. So, I'll be a touch on the brief side here... for better or worse, our global food production is balanced towards volume and profit... no moral judgement, that is where we are. It has good things (feeding masses) and bad things (pollution and lack of sustainability)... however, it is possible that we have reached a point in time where we need to re-balance this.(across all sectors, to properly price pollution...). I think this will require adjustments from both industry and consumers... however, there appears to be a lack of will to realise that any re-balancing is going to cause pain all around... and thus, we get stuck and pass the problem to the future... That said, we all do this... I am as guilty as anyone else... I do what I think I can and am willing to do... but I'm sure it is possible (perhaps even necessary) to do more.
I can see how it would get annoying living in political capital.
Downtown Seoul is pretty much a constant protest and it gets annoying. I guess I'm more sympathetic to the causes I support. However, some of them (in Korea it's the nationalistic ones) are absolutely ridiculous. They have massive demonstrations over actions from their neighbors all the time, but it's not quite clear what this will accomplish since foreign nations are not accountable and the government can't really do much other than ignore or escalate.
Generally, people in agriculture are at complete odds with the city and it's a tough part of the modern world because they still make up a huge part of the actual land area and their incomes are really insecure compared to salaried workers.
Food is definitely polluting a lot and cash crops reign supreme. The meat industry and some of these tropical fruits and nuts travel very far and have a huge ecological footprint. The oil inputs alone are quiet large, never mind the water use and absolute dependancy on a stable climate.
Our diets are hardly natural in any sense of the word.
Part of the problem is the huge hostility towards GM foods (it's like nuclear - a lot of anti-scientific info out there) and those are literally the only ticket out of industrialized farming other than a drastic change in diet. If we aren't going to embrace GM, we have to wait for cheap and abundant energy (and a ton of money) to do it hydroponically in verticle farms.
Weird, I wouldn't have pictured Koreans to be the protest and demonstrating sort of culture! How little I know!
I just read the people who live nearby are so fed up, they want to have one weekday per week and one weekend day per month when protests are banned from certain public spaces. I imagine it would be on a rotating basis...but I also imagine fierce protests against such a decision.
Living in the fields in between farmers and land I know its a difficult existence but the things happened are to harsh and the stikstof affaire will be huge in the coming period
Yes... I think that serious changes need to made about the Nitrogen emissions... it will hurt all sectors and consumers, but it is something that needs changing course.
Looks like a lot of people got late for work today. I'm not sure if they would get more support for the traffic caused. There are other ways to make yourself heard without causing others inconvenience.
This is what I wonder as well... I was curious enough to research a bit more, and I'm generally patient anyway... so it didn't bother me much. But I would wager that there would be more people who would be screaming....
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