Poll: Flags or Downvotes?

in poll •  24 days ago 

Polling Steemians Thumb.jpg

Hello Steemians, we want to hear your thoughts on whether we should replace "flags" with "downvotes" on steemit.com, which is why we’d like you to participate in this poll. Specifically we will be changing the icon and some of the verbiage that users see when they click on the icon. This idea has been brought up in the past by community members through various channels. You can view some of that discussion here: Change flag to downvote #2258.

TL;DR

Do you think flags should be changed to downvotes? Leave a comment to this post saying “Yes” if you would like flags changed to downvotes, or leave a comment saying “No” if you would not like flags to be changed to downvotes.

Why?

There are two reasons why we would support this change. First, a “downvote” is more accurate as that is what the action is called on the blockchain level. The reason why Steem has downvotes is to enable the Steem user base to self-regulate and police the distribution of tokens from the rewards pool. If Steem only had upvotes, that would enable people to exploit the rewards pool while leaving other users without the ability to counter that behavior.

Downvotes are a critical function from a game theoretical perspective. Rendering a downvote is technically just a user expressing their opinion that a post is overvalued, but a flag connotes a negative moral or legal judgment about the content. That creates a negative user experience and engenders confusion in the mind of the user with respect to how the protocol functions on a technical level.

The Role of Steemit.com

We believe that part of steemit.com’s function within the ecosystem is to be the most accurate visual representation of the Steem blockchain. Steem can be used to power an infinite variety of applications, but it is for other developers to explore those opportunities. It is our responsibility at Steemit to ensure that users and developers who are new to the ecosystem are introduced to the blockchain in a way that maximizes the odds that they will be able to rapidly acquire a deep understanding of the protocol so that they can come up with new and innovative uses of it.

Communities

The second reason why we would like to experiment with downvotes is because the Communities specification also has a flag component that is effectively identical to the more typical use of that element in other social media applications. Thanks to flexibility of Soft Consensus, flags in Hivemind can be used to satisfy whatever subjective standards a community desires to enforce, freeing downvotes to serve the specific application for which they were intended: regulating the rewards pool.

Dialogue Suggestions

For now, we only plan to replace the flag icon with a downvote icon as a test. We are not making substantial changes to the text used in the dialogue box that appears when you click on the Flag icon, so we would love to read any suggestions you might have for changes to that text in the comments section below.

We want steemit.com to be a great experience for you all, so let us know what you think by completing the poll below.

The Poll

Do you think flags should be changed to downvotes? Leave a comment saying “Yes” if you would like flags changed to downvotes, or leave a comment saying “No” if you would not like flags to be changed to downvotes.

The Steemit Team

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Sort Order:  

Yes

Downvote button next to the upvote one that cannot go below 0 rshares (hide content)

List top votes with downvotes at the bottom. (less visible)

We could extract some very valuable curation from the few downvotes that may occur.
It won't affect the reward distribution or "people exploit the rewards pool" until there are cheaper downvotes implemented in the form of a separate downvote pool that doesn't take from your upvoting power.

https://steemit.com/steem/@transisto/improving-negative-curation-a-downvote-button-vs-flag-explained-condenser

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If the downvote button is next to the upvote button, then I think it's certain that some of the time (even if it's less than 1% of the time) people will click the wrong button by mistake. I would consider it bad User Interface and Experience design. If the buttons are not at all close to each other, it would be much better.

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Each side of the reward amount was suggested.
That's close enough for people to understand they are related.

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If it doesn't hide content, how do you deal with people retaliating flags with dick and shit pictures?

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  ·  23 days ago (edited)

The problem on Steemit is not dick and shit pictures - hell, they would be a lot more interesting than 90% of what is being posted now, the problem is that all the real bloggers have been driven off the platform by relentless flagging by hundreds of bots belonging to whales.

It's interesting in a perverse way of to see the controlled upvoting on the comments on this ridiculous "poll" - this really has to be some kind of farce! Does anyone actually think any of this is real? I'd rather look at some dick and shit pictures.

Having this bullshit pinned to my feed as a "featured post" was the final straw that convinced me that Steemit really is all over...

And then seeing that a new downvote button is already there the very next day, on a platform that literally can't fix a major user interface balls up like no longer sorting followed accounts alphabetically, after many months, shows just want a con this "poll" always was.

I have no idea what the aim of Steemit's devious controllers really is, but downvoting and flagging is all about control, censorship, and profiteering. Which is why, like nearly all my Steemit friends, I have quit posting and given up on this platform.

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Spam, porn spam, bid bots, plagiarism, and other forms of abuse are rampant nowadays.

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Author blacklist options in the interface?
I think steempeak already does this.

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That doesn’t solve the problem of the outside world stumbling across a post with 100 images of dicks because I flagged their spam.

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If they see it on steempeak, it will.

Is there anything, other than interface blacklists, that can stop it?
It's just a fact of the blockchain until the population of those kind of folks decreases?

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Sites have moderators. On Steem that’s the community.

You can argue free speech and allow people to plaster dicks everywhere but is that what we want.

I recently flagged a spammer and he did just that. Posting tons of porn gifs in all my posts. I had a few people ask me if Steem turned into RedTube.

There has to be some way for the community to collectively moderate if we want to be decentralized without authority.

Think about what it makes us look like to the outside world looking in.

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I get it, and if your readers use your muting preferences then they will never see them.

Good luck getting stinc to do something like that, though.
They seem to be on the other side from most of us.

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You use the flag for that.

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If there is still a mechanism for that then I am in agreement.

Yes and No, depending.

I would like to suggest the flag/down-vote terminology should be implemented according to impact.

  • If the flag/downvote is going to result in reputation damage, call it a flag.
  • If the flag/downvote only has concequences for the pay-out amount but not to the reputation, call it a downvote.

Ideally, I think, a change to the underlying APIs would be needed to further untangle the situation according to intent.

  • Ideally, a high-rep individual should get the option to do an actual downvote without reputation damage to the receiving party. That is, a high rep individual should get both options where the downvote option should be free of inflicting reputation damage regardless of reputations involved.
  • Expanding on this idea, a reputation-impact-free version of upvotes could help fix the inflated reputation problem caused by the use of bid bots. Allow bid-bots to drop their reputation lifting capacity voluntarily and user initiatives could declare open seizon on reputation-inflation bid-bot users if they would see fit to do so.
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terminology is important, but it does not change the ontological state of the world. For the one who suffers from cancer, cancer is cancer. It does not matter to him/her that there is also a benign form. And this network suffers.

ideally, a network consists of users, it derives its value by the number of users or more correctly the number of connections which can be established between nodes. Humans have a sense of fairness and they want fairness.

What's the point in inflating one ideological opinion of a high SP account and force it up on the whole network? One opinion (regardless of the SP) ideally does not matter in a society and if the opinions matters due to an ill algorithm/politics aka. lobbyism, then it hurts the reputation of the network aka. society.

(Im counting down the number of daily active users since months now and it gets lower an lower)

we are a little bit up today @ 3900 Users lel. Subtract the bots, divide by the number of actual subnetworks due to language barriers and apply a network model (e.g. metcalfe) to those and you see that Steem is going to die (or simply look into your feed). When a network reaches a certain threshold, then each node comes to a point where it can't make enough connections to derive any use from the network anymore aka. it becomes a boring and useless platform. It does not matter if the remaining users are "whales" fuck them, really fuck them it would be also in their interest.

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Would I prefer to be spanked or beaten?

Well neither actually, which is why I powered down all my Steemit accounts and quit posting.

I wonder if whales will enjoy their public masturbation so much when nobody is watching...

Yes, it's a reasonable change, as long as it doesn't take 6 months to implement and delay other needed work. I'm pretty sure it's just the name of a button on the site.

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Exactly.
Also put two button next to each other uparrow and downarrow...
BUt once again - not that it is crucial thing that needs improving at this moment - and all the things we are still waiting.

However keeping it just the same format I don't think will change anything.
Do you think people (small staked one) would actually downvote people with no-content-inside-thepost who self-voted to $50. when their upvote is 0.01... when the same account can destroy everything.

Now interesting thing would be anonymously reporting these posts and abuse to someone other than steemcleaners(with sooo large staked steem that can suppress any abuse) which would be reviewed and taken actions against (keeping the flag hidden above the post) and putting downvote near upvote.

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Even better, make both buttons in 5 different styles and colours, to be more inclusive

By the way, something actually important, Log-In via FB, Google, etc...
Just published

https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@steemlogin/steemlogin-a-new-and-easy-way-to-sign-in-to-steem

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This is great. Allowing people to not worry about their keys each time they want to go play a game or make a post is what we need.

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That is one more selling point, look, people, it's so easy!

Hey, people, you know, there are two types of rewards, one is for curators and another one is for authors. You know, it was 75/25, but maybe, just maybe, it would be better if it's 50/50, you know. In reality, you will earn, something like a dollar or less, and you will be both author and curator no matter what. But, you know, it's like, you know, super important :D

this is not a selling point

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I do see a problem with different colors though, what about the chromatically challenged co-Steemians?

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A good point actually, upvote 4 you...

And this is why it should be done by a professional(s) :D

It's not easy at all

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  ·  24 days ago (edited)

lol, 6 months in debate first, then 6 months to get done

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This is the most surrealistic posting I have ever encountered on the Steemit platform.

I don't know whether these witness fucktards are serious or just laughing in our face.

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i find it interesting how a Yes or No question is answered. Yes button / No button. lol

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And what colour should those buttons then be? And what form? Round, or square or rounded? questions, questions, questions...

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lol

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  ·  23 days ago (edited)

Except in most cases it doesn't even actually get done in those second 6 months. See SMTs, communities, and most of the other things that were intended to add value. In all fairness if the chain couldn't scale it couldn't scale but supposedly now it can, at least in terms of costs, we will see what they do with that.

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  ·  24 days ago (edited)

It seems like everything takes 6 months (or more) to implement on here...

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In Former Yugoslavia, it was called "workers self-governing socialism".
Every factory was governed by common workers.
They were voting about everything, you know, what should be the colour of pencils and simultaneously Top Management stuff.

As you could imagine it was an epic failure

Because common workers know nothing about top management and top managers know nothing about nuts and bolts

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Sounds like the book, "Animal Farm." I wonder if the point (really) was to get the workers to mentally invest in their jobs more so they would be okay with working harder.

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It's a great question, and not intuitive at all.

Here is the trick, it's hard to work hard. You need to master the craft, you need to learn more, to compete, to be more and more creative.

In that case, some will become the true masters and those will be paid more, those will be wanted more. Those will be at the top.

However, in a system where all the people are need to be equal, you must create a different "scoring system".

It will not matter if you are the best, but some weird things, such as:

  • do you love your president
  • do you prefer Real Madrid or Barcelona
  • is your haircut straight
  • who was your grandfather and what he was doing

I'm serious about those questions.

Those gatherings of basically incompetent were used to enjoy the easiness of Dani Kruger effect, and "earn points". Just be loud and say that in leaders you trust and that you will never choose another path.

Who the hell is a doctor to tell me about vaccines? Who the hell is an architect to tell me how to build? Who the hell is an engineer to teach me how to make stuff?

Sounds familiar, right?

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If there is anything I have learned after being on this planet for 50 years is that one must dig deeper for the "real" information. One will never find it on the propaganda box called the television.

I appreciate your input @alexs1320. I will never know everything, so it is wonderful to hear your perspective. Thank you for taking the time to make such a thoughtful response!

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I like to talk to people who spent more time on this planet than me, because the official history is often forgetting one important thing: what was the sentiment?

Do you remember the euphoria from winter 2017, concerning crypto?

Today, there are more ATMs, better regulations, more users, more Apps, but something is missing.

There is no real progress. This is why I believe that this "decentralised, amateur, volunteers" can not work. This is a job for those with 5+ Million power and some Pros. Big contracts with influential people, companies, brands... And maybe, just maybe something could change

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For the last 3 decades (or more) it has been about building and supporting community for me, wherever I land. Also, defining and refining the word community with regards to my personal needs and wants over the years. I have been very lucky to have experienced many flavors and varieties of communities and my take-away is that we do actually need each other (probably more than we realize). We are being programmed to think that we can get along without the help of the other, but this is a false assumption.

I could wallow in the negative but I try to keep positive with regards to humans and where we are headed. I just take care of myself and my community and hope for the best. God willing something positive will happen that influences another generation.

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Exactly. Then why are we repeating the same terrible ideas here? They know what needs to be done and they should just do it. Steemit.com is a private website, if we don't like it we can move to another app. Simple as that.

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Because most of the people know History Channel History a.k.a. "maybe aliens".

We can move to another app. True, and that is what we are doing, Trybe is cool, a similar concept. And there are always FB, Insta, whatever.

The problem is one psychological phenomenon. Once you have invested the time, it's difficult to quit. The same goes for bad job, bad relationship, bad town, car...

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Good points.

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Yes, it's a reasonable change, as long as it doesn't take 6 months to implement and delay other needed work. I'm pretty sure it's just the name of a button on the site.

  ·  24 days ago (edited)

Yes.

Increasing downvotes is healthy and important for the ecosystem, so much so that I am still a strong proponent of a separate downvote power pool.
I agree with the other comments that downvotes should be more visually similar to upvotes -- it is an important UX decision that will be able to slowly change the culture to be more accepting of downvotes.
The two above changes -- separate downvote power, and equivalent UX design -- would go a long way to better sample both positive and negative feedback on a post and lead to more "fair" rewards.

One consideration would be the continuation of "flag wars" to "downvote wars". I'm not sure the best approach for avoiding this becoming more common (perhaps hiding the list of downvoters from Steemit's UX would help) but with more prevalent downvotes it is likely retaliation will increase. It is a consideration, but the benefits outweigh this concern in my opinion.

Finally, the new communities interface surrounding a new form of "flagging" should be robust. Moderation is very important for social networks, and having robust tools for community leaders to clean their space is a key element for having a good public image and leaving good impressions for newcomers.

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  ·  24 days ago (edited)

"Downvotes are healthy and important for the ecosystem"
They aren't talking about getting rid of them, so arguing for their validity is pointless. You fell for their strawman argument!
The issue at hand is: Is flagging a comment or post exactly the opposite of upvoting it, and should they be considered opposite sides of the same coin by the site and community?

Arguing that flags/downvotes are healthy is pointless. Nobody is saying otherwise. Literally nobody.

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  ·  24 days ago (edited)

"Literally nobody" -- not true, there are many users that argue for an "upvote only" system.
There are also many users who believe that the ratio between upvotes and downvotes should be high (for examples sake, say 90% upvotes 10% downvotes).

I'm not talking at all about their necessity, that's implied, my argument is that the ratio should be increased and more even for a healthier environment (for examples sake, say 75% upvotes, 25% downvotes). This can be achieved in multiple ways, as I explained above, such as removing the social barrier (UX) as well as the technical opportunity cost (downvote power separation).

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Literally nobody in this discussion, anyway. Surely there are people who believe almost every possible thing that can be believed. But nobody in this discussion, or here in the post or comments, has that stance. Arguing against it here is silly, and off-topic.
What do you mean by the ratio between upvotes and flags? How could that be enforced, and why would we want to?

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actually there are a few comments here referring to exactly that.. and there always is. As many individuals here don’t understand downvotes and why they are important, which is what anyx was pointing out. 🙂

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  ·  24 days ago (edited)

I wasn't even talking about it until you brought it up.

The ratio of upvotes to downvotes means that, either per-user or in aggregate of the whole system, how often is an upvote used relative to a downvote. If its 100%, then only upvotes are used. If its 90%, then for every 9 upvotes there is on average 1 downvote. And so on.
My opinion and argument in both of my comments is that the number of downvotes, relative to upvotes, should be higher (i.e. more downvotes) as it creates a more healthy ecosystem.

I never talked about enforcing -- it's about incentives (or lack there-of). I strongly encourage you to re-read my comments.

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Long live the n2!

Yes

Although, I'd really like to have both flags and downvotes. Flag for something inappropriate that should be hidden from Steemit.com and downvotes for posts/comments where I don't agree with the value awarded.

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Yes

This a good response. Disagreement and not liking something should not effectively censor it from view. The flag should be used for that. Though there is no real way currently to police improper use of the flag, and I don't expect that would change.

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Great feedback! I agree

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Thanks! Appreciate the feedback-squared.

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Please don't add any functionality that requires more training points.

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Outside of that value coming from abuse of the rewards pool whether you agree or not with what's been written should be limited to commenting your displeasure and a no deduction from rewards down vote. There's a reason they don't let the judge be the jury.

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Of course... I personally wouldn't downvote someone because I disagree with their content... I would either comment or ignore the post completely. My position still stands though, the flag should be used for content that shouldn't be seen on Steemit (say something completely plagiarized without sourcing the creator) or a downvote for something I disagree with the value of. If say, a simple low-effort selfie was upvoted to $1000.

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I agree with your assessment, I am completely the same way. I either ignore it, decide to leave a comment of disagreement or move on. The problem with the current system is it leaves those with power the absolute right to abuse the platform...I've just come to accept that's the way it is since nothing ever gets done about it. Funny thing is though is that it's usually those with power abusing the platform who will flag someone with less power for doing the exact same thing. (lol) I highly doubt my time spent here will change anything, nor most of those who've also made comments, these things never seem to equate to any meaningful change, just like politics, the power is in the hands of a few and those people will not vote against or change things against their own self interest....even if in the end the end result will be worse.

The best way I'd say, if I had to escape this mess, would be to put a heavier coat of lipstick on the pig, in other words use the flag system for people to flag for abuse that will bring down Steem Cleaners, use the old buddy system on steam cleaners to decide who gets to abuse and who don't (lol, you know, like your own brotherhood of whales...lol) (just the way life is sometimes), in the meantime let people who aren't abusing go at it freely without retribution, let those who earn rewards for comments and post that don't violate terms keep their rewards and let people show their dislike of a comment or post by downvoting it. A lot of times I will click on flagged post just because I want to see who/what/why it got flagged, downvoting may bring my attention to a post just as much as looking at the rewards...I have to admit sometimes I'd rather see why a post is disliked more than liked, the liked post usually are long, drawn out post getting rewarded for something that doesn't interest me at all.

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I like this option as well.. it separates the two use cases.

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I think it's an excellent idea, because those of us with little SP could use the flag to warn about the abuse of the whales, but if there are only negative votes it would not help.
For example there are many who abuse the pool of rewards with bots and minnows we can not do anything because they return the downvote

Yes, and to take it a step further you need to think about the visual communication of having the flag/downvote in a different place than the upvote button.

This communicates that these actions aren't related and it's inconsistent with every other social platform that has downvotes.

So something like this

downvote.jpg

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This!

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The actions aren't related enough to be given equivalent icons in the same spot, though.
Upvotes are used to show agreement with comments and posts. Downvotes are to identify abuse of the system or users. There's a reason they aren't next to each other, and mirror images of each other.

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This misunderstanding actually proves my point. What you just said is what their design communicates, but no, they ARE opposite actions, and are NOT meant to show abuse. That's the whole reason this is being brought up.

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No, you're re-writing history. That's not true at all.
Flags are to show abuse of the blockchain/website/users. Now they're being morphed into "disagree" or "I feel this post/comment is overvalued".

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The term flag is indeed as you defined it, which is why this conversation has been a recurring one in the community, but the technical application on Steem of a flag is LITERALLY the opposite of an upvote. As in it, consumes voting power, and removes a stake weighted amount of Steem, based on voting weight and power.

Typically a flag is a tool to alert site moderators of some sort of abuse so that they can take action. This functionality doesn't exist on Steem as there are no site moderators, and no person has the power to take any action against another user other than a downvote. This change would at least clear up this confusion.

I still doubt people will use them as this is a fundamentally different system, and the things that work on centralized, no money involved systems, just won't work the same here, but it at least make things clearer.

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And here I was thinking that flags in Steem just meant: "I hate you."

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Great feedback!

  ·  24 days ago (edited)

Keep both options, downvote & flag

1.What if the downvote could not be larger than the current biggest upvote of the post?

2.and flag should be by default 100% without option to change it

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My suggestion was also to keep both but to make the downvote not able to reach below zero or below the amount to hide a comment, (I think -10m rshares)

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Can't we discuss the sex of the angels in stead? Seems to make more sense to me.

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During the siege of Constantinople in 1453, the Orthodox Byzantines were debating the sex of angels instead of defending the fortress. Thus the failure of the Byzantine world ironically stems from the disengagement of the Church from society and its immediate reality.

http://www.nicodimgallery.com/exhibitions/on-the-sex-of-angels

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Sorry... My bad English don't allowed me to understand!

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Yeah, because things are not confusing enough.

Just because you don't know who our users are....

They will not understand and they will use the wrong thing.

Can we please make things easy for once?

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Bin both and get rid of the clowns who have trashed this platform!

Oh bugger...too late...

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I like keeping both. While I would agree that using the downvote is the most logical. Flagging represents a greater escalation in my own mind. One may be used for content the other for behavior.

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I think keeping both is a great idea - but would suggest the downvote button not to be next to the upvote so that people can't mistakenly choose the wrong button :)

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Reddit style... they don't seem to have problems

Doesn't matter much, but downvotes should have their own punishment pool (reward pool). So downvoting doesn't take from your upvote %

Yes, although I think there are other more important features to implement on the steemit.com website than changing an icon or some terminology.

BTW, do you know about dpoll? Why not use it?

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The most important thing that has to be taken care of, is to make Steemit a more friendly place to come to and to understand, because now those in power as well as the user interface are extremely user hostile. You have to be a diehard poster/commenter now, to even stand it a few weeks here as things are now.

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No truer words have been spoken, you have to had already earned your blogging battle scars to stay entrenched on this site. My only concerns are will down votes cancel out a up vote?...if they do then what do you do if someone decides they don't like you and stalks your comments/post just to down vote them for no other reason. Can/will down votes be able to be weighted according to SP...meaning someone with more power can just wipe out your total up votes?...if so nothing really changes, people can still be retaliatory out of spite instead of out of concern for the content produced and they will still be able to run over to your blog and retaliate some more. Though some probably think people don't think about that but they do. I did exactly that last week when I wrote a post and I didn't know how it'd be taken so I waited two more days for another post to clear that had earned a few pennies before posting the current post.

This place could literally be a blast if people didn't fear, say, getting in on a Bernie knock out drag out, it's be great, fun, fun, fun....but the fear factor exist of being squashed so people don't do it. Whatever is decided the fear of striking at profit (up votes, post rewards) has to be eliminated, the only time people should be losing rewards here would be out of abuse of the platform/reward pool.

Just to give people a good idea of the kind of fear that exist on this site the person behind the drama token offered twenty steam for the best article that could start some drama....and literally got crickets for a response, I think one person wrote something and even that was questionable if it was even dramatic.

The fear factor, the totalitarianism has to cease to exist and open debate left to flourish, once you establish that the site will flourish.

So Yes I am in if the only thing left hurting is one's feelings you don't agree with them.

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"The most important thing that has to be taken care of, is to make Steemit a more friendly place to come to and to understand"
Whoa, hahaha, yeah right! Wouldn't that be nice?

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Many questioned the use of dpoll in the community election, and stated it should have been just done through comments. I think it’s one of those “you can’t please everyone” situations.

Possibly they aren’t looking for “consensus” but rather feedback?

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feedback is also alright :-) Here is a good example from @stateofthedapps.

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Because an interface could simply parse the comments and display the result based on SP owned

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Hey, thanks for mentioning dPoll.

dPoll is a solution to get that kind of feedbacks, but not the perfect solution. In order to create a poll at dPoll right now, you need to use the Steemconnect. (which requires Active key sent to Steemconnect at first login.)

I can understand having sensitive accounts (like @steemitblog) makes the dPoll a no-go at the moment.

Steemconnect related concerns raised multiple times before. We're trying to address the situation by making SC as an optional authentication method. Voting via Keychain/3rd party transactions was the first step and already deployed a couple of weeks ago.

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This exactly right. Dpoll and SteemConnect are both awesome, but we have to be extra careful. Thanks for understanding!

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I can understand having sensitive accounts (like @steemitblog) makes the dPoll a no-go at the moment.

This is something I fully understand too. Looking forward to see dPoll being fully Keychain compatible.

If only a yes or no is accepted, I'll vote Yes.

But here's another idea, why not have both then use analytics and see which one users will most likely use?

I just think that there has to be a difference in functionality or use for each one. Like flags should be anonimous? I'm not sure. And flags should be reported or sent to a third party and then this 3rd party (@steemcleaners perhaps) will be the one who will take action on the report or flag.

I'm just concerned of the flag wars I heard that happened before.

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I'm just concerned of the flag wars I heard that happened before.

Many times. Very negative user experience. Especially since not all participants are equal in such a war.

Yes

As much as we have listened to people complain about being flagged it's about time.

That or emotions like Facebook would be wise as well. Though, id make it so users can set what %'s the emotions have. Say an angry face is worth -50% upvote or smoke coming out ears is 100%.

Regardless users are going to complain, the better option is to keep flags but for steemits benefit to log abusers. So, id say keep flags and add downvotes.

Yes.

To go a bit further, flags and downvotes should be two separate things. Flags should be for abuses/violations of steemit.com rules whereas downvotes should be for disagreement of rewards.

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So are you saying that Steemit.com should have moderators and control the content posted on the site?

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  ·  23 days ago (edited)

Well yes, Steemit.com is a private website. Just like they took the blog down of that hacker group a few months back. Content stays on the blockchain but steemit.com is a for profit website and the sooner it is run like one the sooner we all benefit.

Communities should have moderators yes and there should be a way to reward community members for their contributions to that community. What we have now is a giant mess of nothing. There is no value here for other people to consume. Zero.

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  ·  23 days ago (edited)

Communities and their moderators will solve this issue though, Steemit Inc should not be set to moderate the interface too much unless it has to do with drastic things as you mentioned.

Communities can censor what they like to improve their users experience. Having multiple communities with multiple moderators all with different styles of moderation will help balance it all. Communities will be a game changer for sure 🙂

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Agreed. But, where are they?

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Hivemind ✅ - done
MIRA - Almost done
Then communities.

Hivemind allows more changes to the font end to be done without a fork.. MIRA will lower the costs of running a full node which will be needed to run dApps. Communities are next on their roadmap I’ve seen.. nothing happens as quick as we want here and development was stalled for a bit there, but it seems to be back on track. Hopefully it continues 🙂

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Well that is good to know, actually. Have you spoken to Ned recently?

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I’m not in contact with Ned often, but spoke to him a week or so ago about the foundation and all is well. Eli and Andrarchy are my main contacts for that now, and speak to them often. The Steemit devs can be seen on the Steemit blog posts answering questions as well. I think they are actively trying to communicate more openly and I hope it continues.

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It already does.

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lol, you can say that again, they just are known by other titles.

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Eheheeheh! 🙃 😂

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  ·  23 days ago (edited)

It doesn't.

Edit: Well yes it seems to have.

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Well, then I guess this happened by accident:

qv14p3gzvm.png


yulihrkn79.png

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Interesting, it seems something has changed while I haven't been using Steemit anymore.

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No, it hasn’t.. Steemit.com is owned by a private company and has to follow rules sometimes. The darkoverloard was doing things that would have put them in legal trouble and they made the decision to remove it from their interface. Others don’t have to as they are not in the same legal jurisdiction and of course nothing is removed from the chain.

They have also removed spam accounts from the interface that can still be viewed elsewhere.

People just like to use this one example to somehow back up their censorship claims.. when all they mean are downvotes, as they have not been removed from the interface, clearly. 🙂

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Well it has changed, as for the time I used Steemit nothing like this had happened and as far as I know, nobody even assumed something like this would have happened.

Steem the blockchain is censorship resistant, but this still changes things.

  ·  24 days ago (edited)

Yes.

so we would love to read any suggestions you might have for changes to that text in the comments section below

Remove the dialog altogether for downvotes as they relate to users expressing an opinion about the reward pool. Alternately, replace with a brief explanation about how the reward pool works (upvotes minus downvotes as a measurement of stakeholder consensus) which should appear once for each user.

For 'flags' as a Communities feature, community managers should be able to customize the text.

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Great suggestion. The text is incorrect as is....

  ·  24 days ago (edited)

Yes, encouraging downvotes would be a great way to regulate the "trending" sections. And it could make bidbots unprofitable for low-quality posts.

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I doubt it... everyone can use flag for the same thing today.

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  ·  23 days ago (edited)

Indeed.
However, there are two problems, which won't be solved by changing the name from "flag" to "downvote":

  • The fear of retaliation (so only a few people dare to flag at all - these ones often actually really like doing it). I see no reason why this would change?
  • The abuse of the flag option when users with much SP follow every post and comment of their unlucky "victims" to flag them whatever they write.

Yes

While I believe the reluctance to use downvotes is mostly due to economic rather than a UI reasons, I'd support any move to promote their use, however minor, like this one.

Overall, we're currently in a state where voting rewards are being used as staking returns through either bid botting or self voting. This is completely undermining the content discovery ability of this platform and is predominantly due to misaligned economic incentives.

While UI changes are welcome, I believe they'll make very little difference on their own. Having a certain amount of free downvotes (like 25% of upvotes) and bringing up curation rewards will likely remedy a lot of the economic problems and allow people to use their votes to actually reward content they find appealing. A tiny amount of superlinear can also help force all potentially profitable voting behavior into the light and prevent profitable micro spamming.

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Long live the n2!

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n^2 is far too extreme and opens the system to abuse in other ways

but I believe a slight amount of superlinear would be better than linear

every measure has trade offs, the idea is to use a combination of very modest measures that compliment each other that represent the least set of trade offs required to obtain a working economy

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I sure liked the n2 when the whale experiment kicked in, before that it sucked.

I still think a 500mv community enforced soft cap on the n2 brings in the masses.
30 or 40 people making worthwhile money won't cut it.
We got to spread the coin farther.

Abusing us with the ninjamine is real classy, imo.

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i agree the post experiment econ was the best, although it wasn't ideal either, as this level of superlinear heavily rewarded collusive vote stacking on certain posts

it was also expensive for abit and smooth running the experiment

i believe with something like n^1.2 or 1.3 up until a certain point, and then linear from there, we could enjoy pretty much all the advantages of n^2 with very little of the disadvantages

in addition, i think a non trivial amount of free downvotes is a must (although 100% is far too much, i think 25% of upvotes is more than sufficient)

increasing curation will further close the gap between voting for legitimately good posts from others and just directly shoving the vote rewards back into your own pocket (which would be much harder with slight superlinear and some free downvotes)

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@steemflagrewards has a bot that automates downvotes, if that was modified to include everybody with 1mv or more to enforce the softcap then it wouldn't have to fall totally on the whales.
Bringing back the 4 post soft cap on rewards would cut abuse some.
So would doubling votes to 20.

What do you think of giving curation to downvotes?
Just mirror upvotes.

All good ideas, know any coders?

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the experiment partially worked only because the economy was at its infancy and people weren't bothered/sophisticated in trying to get around it

these days, with delegation and whatnot, it's trivially easy to split your stake under multiple accounts and circumvent the measures you suggested

i haven't seen a better set of ideas than higher curation, moderate free downvotes and slight superlinear. I can't think of any obvious ways it can be abused. It does mean we have to accept some of the negatives that come with it like less author rewards (which is a big deal assuming now the econ works and authors aren't just the stakeholders but good content creators), higher toxicity through more downvotes, and somewhat inequality through superlinear.

the idea is to minimize their negative effects while still having enough of these measures to get a working economy.

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I was wondering about ganging up sock puppets of whales.
Would that end run a 500mv soft cap?

Do 10 500mv accounts pull enough rewards to make the math unattractive to the minnows?
Is there enough stake with the will to block that?

No doubt that a 4 post soft cap on rewards and a 1% vote rather than 2% would alter abuse dramatically.
Combine the superlinear up to 500mv and we are where we were 2 plus years ago.

How does a large investor feel about splitting stake due to the cap?
How many people buy 250,000 steem at a whack?

I know that is a lot of questions, i hope you can answer them so that i can quit asking folks.

I do know that the top 10 voters take ~27% of the pool each day.
The bidbots take another 30.
Not much left over for anybody outside the top 500 accounts.
Is it any wonder we are having a hard time interesting folks in investing their time just to be excluded from tasting the pie?
https://steemit.com/steemit/@statsmonkey/biggest-upvoters-3132018---part-ii

Yes 100%. Downvote means the opposite of upvote. Flag means the content is not appropriate for the current community / user interface.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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Totally agree with @yabapmatt. Flag should be to report someone for abuse or something like that and should effect reputation. Downvote just means you don't like the post and shouldn't damage reputation.

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Should it damage post rewards though? If so that's terrible for people who post unpopular opinions but aren't breaking any rules.

Posted using Partiko Android

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This is exactly how the Steem reward system is meant to work. Rewards are crowdsourced, meaning it's up to the stakeholders to determine what rewards each post should earn. No posts are entitled to any rewards, there's is no objective measure of quality that determines a post's rewards. If you post something unpopular, then the crowd will likely decide that it should not be rewarded.

No one can take away your ability to post it, but the rewards are up to Steem stakeholders to allocate in any way they see fit based on their stake.

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