The Economic Calculation Problem and Libertarian Socialism

in #politics7 years ago (edited)

The economic calculation problem is an argument against socialism that’s been around a long time

The economic calculation problem has been refuted time and time again. To avoid explaining it over and over again to the right-wing “libertarians” on this application I will write it all here. This “problem” has been answered in many completely different ways. In fact, some of the answers were thought up in socialist circles decades before it was first published by a capitalist in the 1920’s.




The Theory


The theory revolves around proving that a functioning socialist economy is “illogical”. This is my best attempt at fully understanding the theory. It is split into parts, so my argument flows better.

Part One

The theory claims that if all the means of production were treated as public property capital goods would become internal exchange, so all prices associated with them would be irrational. This is because there is no common unit with which to measure value so all values given would be subjective, and thus illogical. With irrational prices, the best option is “impossible” to determine. Without prices profits could not be determined, so the best materials and best projects to undertake can not be determined. This lead to the claim that with these irrational prices, any socialist economy would simply be “chaos”.

* Part Two *

The theory states that money allows consumers to buy and compare goods without needing to know what it takes to produce them. This combined with the law of diminishing marginal utility means that to determine how much to buy the consumer only needs to know the price of the good, not what possible factor increases the price and quality. The willingness of the consumer to buy these is what turns subjective prices into “objective” prices. They do not need to know how the entire society functions around it, just that it is the job that pays the most and thus “needs” to be done the most.

* Part Three *

Since all businesses must coordinate with each other based on prices, this creates a semi-coherent operation. Each business adapts to the changing markets to gain the most profit, which supposedly satisfies the needs of all consumers. This is because as the profit margins of different areas increase (more subjective want), the amount of production in them should increase as well. (As has been proven in history all production will actually increase until it all crashes.)

This comes to the biggest part of the argument, the “knowledge problem”. To sum it up, the economy could theoretically be predicted by a set of equations but we aren’t smart enough to do that. Which leads to the conclusion centralized planning and prediction are impossible and it must be taken up by smaller groups operating independently in a market system.

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Libertarian Socialism

Libertarian is only used to refer to the right wing in the United States, and that commonly only since the 1970s. (The first known was the 1940s.) For over a hundred years before that libertarian was synonymous with anarchist, so I may use them interchangeably.

The most common form of libertarian socialism is anarchist-syndicalism. This system is based on worker unions that control the means of production. These unions are called syndicates, and are usually organized in such a way that successfully larger syndicates control the large-scale movement of goods and capital. This is not a top-down hierarchy, but instead runs from the bottom up.

A society built on unions would have a different structure and set of goals from capitalism. Unions would likely focus on one form or another of consensus democracy, where the goal is to get everyone to agree on a plan of action before carrying it out. This is done through debate and compromise.

Part One

The main part of the first argument is that the society would have no unit of accounting and thus all choices would not be based on rational reasoning. It also claims that internal exchange is always illogical.

This disregards the labor theory of value completely. Under the labor theory of value the value of objects are the amount of human labor it takes to produce them. The best material would be determined by a variety of means, not just price. Capitalism does not account for environmental impact or the total amount of the resource in existence, which is why using prices alone to determine a course of action is irrational. This leads to overconsumption and the destruction of our environment, which we see running rampant today. This combined with the natural boom and bust nature of capitalism makes it chaotic.

Part Two

This next section of the argument speaks of consumer welfare. It claims that every worker must relate labor to the goods they consume and use prices of said goods to determine their preferred consumption.

Under capitalism the theory is that if one can not afford to consume something, they do not need it. Instead libertarian socialism would only allocate resources in a way that satisfies as many needs as possible. Nobody would willingly go along with a plan that would not give them what they need, so through consensus democracy that is guaranteed. Determining the most beneficial labor to the person would be planning through the union.

* Part Three *

This last part of the argument asserts that by chasing the most profit the capitalist class will organize together in a coherent organization and that this process can not happen without a market because having full knowledge of production is impossible.

In libertarian socialism the separate unions can organize into markets and fulfill this the capitalist way, or it could do it the anarchist-syndicalist way by distributing resources based on need. Through a series of debates used all people with knowledge they personally deem important to speak.

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Examples

There are examples of libertarian socialism allocating resources better than capitalism, which provides more than enough proof that these methods work. Revolutionary Spain is one of the most prominent examples, and my personal favorite. The CNT in spain wanted to create a libertarian communist society, but overall many places stopped at mutualist or collectivist anarchism. This was because of many mistakes and the rise of fascism making it difficult. To quote Kropotkin on the issue "It is only those who do nothing who make no mistakes,". The rise of fascism made it hard for the entire country to operate, and thus makes every achievement that much more impressive.

This does not mean the revolution overall was a failure, while it was short lived it proved a libertarian socialist economy is viable. Over 70% of the workers were involved in the revolution in the most active areas of Catalonia and Aragón. Barcelona everything was taken over by workers’ councils and within hours utilities and goods changed ownership and within weeks things like public transport were revived and immediately running better than before. They had 700 tram cars running, instead of 600 as just one example. The anarchists then went on to build and control a textile industry employing over a quarter of a million workers. It took years to fully craft a plan to collectivize agriculture.

Some industries could not get materials, as they were either rare or foreign. These industries instead decided to be efficient and turned towards producing materials to help with war efforts. Other industries that were not immediately needed also did this. So instead of producing commodities for each individual the individual’s came together and decided that they needed something more, which is nearly impossible under a market system. Then as time went on the workers voluntarily decided that they needed to give away the massive progress in their personal condition to help save refugees and help more in war efforts. The most “rational” economic decision in the short-term would usually be to let them die, but in the end that would reduce overall progress rather than increase it.

The vast majority of the workers involved were from industrial side of things, few rural workers helped. During the entire existence revolutionary Spain was in control of industrial machinery with which is supported itself.

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The opinions of people outside the political sphere viewed the functioning of anarchist Spain as amazing.

"In the midst of the civil war the Anarchists have proved themselves to be political organizers of the first rank. They kindled in everyone the required sense of responsibility, and knew how, by eloquent appeals, to keep alive the spirit of sacrifice for the general welfare of the people. "As a Social Democrat I speak here with inner joy and sincere admiration of my experiences in Catalonia. The anti-capitalist transformation took place here without their having to resort to a dictatorship. The members of the syndicates are their own masters and carry on the production and the distribution of the products of labor under their own management, with the advice of technical experts in whom they have confidence. The enthusiasm of the workers is so great that they scorn any personal advantage and are concerned only for the welfare of all." -Andrea Oltmares, professor in the University of Geneva

Many well-known anti-fascists also supported anarchist Spain

”In three months Catalonia has been able to set up a new social order on the ruins of an ancient system. This is chiefly due to the Anarchists, who have revealed a quite remarkable sense of proportion, realistic understanding, and organising ability...all the revolutionary forces of Catalonia have united in a program of Syndicalist-Socialist character: socialisation of large industry; recognition of the small proprietor, workers' control...Anarcho-Syndicalism, hitherto so despised, has revealed itself as a great constructive force...I am not an Anarchist, but I regard it as my duty to express here my opinion of the Anarchists of Catalonia, who have all too often been represented to the world as a destructive, if not criminal, element. I was with them at the front, in the trenches, and I have learnt to admire them. The Catalan Anarchists belong to the advance guard of the coming revolution. A new world was born with them, and it is a joy to serve that world." -The well-known anti-Fascist, Carlo Rosselli, before Mussolini's accession to power was Professor of Economics in the University of Genoa
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Many capitalist arguments against socialism can be beaten easily with a little research. The question is how much research people can handle.




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Do you see anything scientific about either the economic calculation problem or the socialist refutations of it that you've stated? Or the whole of economics for that matter (whether right, left or middle)?

It seems to me, there is little or no attempt to determine relevant variables, measure them, almost no use of physical referents, little attempt to make quantified predictions... Lots of sitting down and trying to use reason and logic to figure out a problem, little collection of data (or when there is some data - drawing extremely unwarranted conclusions from it). Lots of philosophy, pretty much no employment of the scientific method.

And these people are trying to create theories about how manage the resources. On what basis? What do they know of creating products that don't break down and can self-repair, making them fully recyclable, making them non-hazardous to the people and the environment, developing automated production plants, creating an electronic system that follows the movement and use of each material resource, and so on, and so on.

The level of thinking economists seem to be on (like thinking about what distribution of resources may be "logical" or "rational" - completely pointless abstractions) seems quite troubling to me. So the theories produced by the field, from my point of view, are likely causing enormous damage to people and environment, but of course there's not really much data to use to substantiate my point of view or anyone else's (which doesn't seem to stop economists from saying how an entire country's economy ought to be run).

I feel frustrated. I'm wanting a shared understanding of how to determine what approach to managing our planet's resources would lead to more needs being met.

Also no, i don't see anything scientific about it. Science is just one aspect of philosophy while this is another

The best way would simply be consensus democracy. If everyone is convinced of the logic then its probably the right thing to do

Well, I'm not convinced of that. :) Everyone once thought all kinds of things, until we found data to show us otherwise.

Anyways, I hope my comment had some influence in pushing people away from any of the economic camps, and towards using the scientific method and doing problem solving through engineering.

"Everyone once thought all kinds of things, until we found data to show us otherwise."

It seems to me, there is little or no attempt to determine relevant variables, measure them, almost no use of physical referents, little attempt to make quantified predictions... Lots of sitting down and trying to use reason and logic to figure out a problem, little collection of data

If you want a scientific study of data analysis and prediction, you have to look at the former "communist" states.

For example the GDR (where I was born) had an incredible sophisticated planning system. They were really good and based their plans on a vast amount of data. And since they could always see how planning and reality resulted, they had it a lot easier then "capitalistic" researchers. They had a "look what happened, why it happened, and adjust plans" cycle going.

(There is still the problem that it is nearly impossible to predict, especially at very small points, what will happen in 10 years when you start making the next 5 year plan).

I am only a little bit familiar with some efforts in the Soviet Union to feed data into computers and crunch out predictions. But nothing successful that I know of. Do you have any materials that describe a successful solving of a problem in GDR using the approach you mentioned?

In general I am extremely skeptical about efforts to predict what will happen with the economy as a whole. Instead, a much more viable approach seems to be to identify a concrete problem and work on it. Like Uber predicting at what times and in which places in a city there will be demand, and positioning their drivers in those places in advance. I consider that a real solution to a real problem. Comparing it with the philosophizing of economists... it's like night and day.

Thats what they did. 134 persons eat 5478kg potatoes a year, so we need X land and 4 machines which need 34,73 screws per year... and so on.

If you want to build a car you need to have the ship to bring in the ore, so to speak.

Sorry, no english source at hand. I have mostly seen a 2-hour docu about it a few years ago.

I see at the end you decided to write about it, thank you! :) In some points of your post you reminded me a bit about the concept of "emergence" which states that complex and sophisticated entitites can arise from the interaction of relatively simple and "apparently stupid" entities. Emergence is everywhere in nature, there are several examples like the cells in your body, like the ants, or your catalonian workers. I do think that concentrating all the decisional power in one entity could be problematic especially if an idiot happen to be running the country :)

trump isn't different from hillary.

here is a nice video

I did not make names but it's funny you thought about Trump :)

trump is the newest stupid leader so everybody is talking about him, its a fair assumption

But I agree with this guy, I didn't like Hillary neither and now it would be a good time for the left party to change, I doubt it's going to happen. I will check out Slavoj Zizek out and see if he wrote books

I do not agree with slavoj on a lot of points but he is also right on a lot of others

Trump is very different to Hillary. Trump's tax bill is already boosting the economy and it will continue to do so. Hillary wanted more taxes, which would hurt the economy more. Trump has cut over 10 regulations for each new regulation he has put into place. That reduces the operating cost for businesses which has lead to a fantastically productive economy.

I readily accept that the odds of me swaying the author in his beliefs are negligible. However, any online argument has the benefit that it has not two but many judges, and I hope to provide some insight for those critical thinkers who happen on this post.

The author is clearly an intelligent person, which is why it is dissapointing to see the economic calculation problem (ECP) misrepresented by him. Wether this is done purposely or not I do not know. The ECP is not that there can be no unit of measurement, but that a value cannot be logically given to this unit. This is a very different argument that requires a different refutation.

Next the author uses the labour theory of value to support his argument. He states the theory as follows

Under the labor theory of value the value of objects are the amount of human labor it takes to produce them.
A theory of value as such cannot hold as can be readily observed by opening a window and looking outside. Surely labour is a variable in the equation that determines value, but not the only variable. This theory could only work if we had constant returns to scale, that is, if every unit produced would be worth as much as the last. Clearly we cannot produce chairs indefinitely as at some point everyone will be seated. Moreover, not only quantity of labor but quality of labor is important. If I make a chair in 8 hours but my brother makes one in 1 hour, his chair is not worth less. Lastly, direction of labour is important. If I spend 8 hours building a chair or 8 hours grinding planks into dust I did not create the same amount of value. Clearly usefulness of a product comes into the equation, but under the labour theory of value we then arrive at a circular argument! Namely, the value of a product is determined by the value of the labour, but also the value of labour is determined by the value of the product, which is determined by the value of the labour. Clearly the labour theory of value does not provide us with the full picture, and should be abandoned.

In conclusion the ECP was not disproven in this post. Better attempts than this have been made and have failed. the ECP remains and is real and any attempt to trivialize such a problem should be approached with scepticism.

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Under capitalism the theory is that if one can not afford to consume something, they do not need it.

I'm not an economist, though everyone is in a way, but who are the people who came with above? That is the most flawed theory I've ever come across in the history of all things flawed.

I grew up thinking anarchists are like outlaws, but the older I get the more I realise how wrong my teachers in high school were. It was a real miseducation of greenrun :)

"I'm not an economist, though everyone is in a way, but who are the people who came with above? That is the most flawed theory I've ever come across in the history of all things flawed."

That is my extrapolation from the fact that the main argument against raising wages is "meh economy" and people seem content with that answer. They put the economy over the people, so I might as well state it

Wrong. Capitalism is an understanding that the economy and the welfare of the people are connected. A strong economy means greater welfare. Since capitalism leads to a greater economy, welfare inevitably improves. That's how capitalism has brought 1 billion people out of poverty in 20 years, which is a point you cannot argue against.

I must confess it fits the occasion.

They don't say it, but it's the logical result of the paradigms of capitalism.

In short: If you needed the thing, you would pay for it. To pay for it you would work. You would lower your wage level until someone employs you. Because you need that thing.

or, I have a better idea. Everybody is given a chance to produce and get what they produce in a system proven to work better in every aspect of life

@lennstar, that particular method of making you collect peanuts as wage works awesomely well in my country. They capitalise on scarce jobs to perpetuate this modern-day slavery sanctioned by capitalism. I am happy that the blockchain is poking holes through their net of enslavement.

This neoliberal capitalism works in Europe, too. It's a world wide downward spiral. We in Germany had the "Agenda 2010". Official reason: To me more competitive. To, you know, China etc. because we can all live in Chinese wages here...

that downward spiral is talked about in imperialism the highest stage of capitalism, it is unavoidable

Questions: If the value theory of money is to be taken seriously then some one would have to differentiate between for instance a huge bonfire and bitcoin or not?Is this true regarding energy as organization? Goes beyond a symbol or takes into account utility?

there is no reason to take into account utility. Make more of it, instead of giving artificial scarcity a value.

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