The Delusional Right Wing
Trump JR not meeting with russians
New polls state that the majority of trump voters think that Trump Jr. did not have a meeting with the russians.
He literally said it himself. He literally said it himself, multiple times, and the right wing doesn’t care, it’s all just fake news to them. (According to polls at least two thirds of them actually believe it is fake news.)
He met with a lawyer from the Russian government about Hillary. Their goal was to find a way to incriminate her.
Only 26% of Trump supporters believe Russia wanted Donald Trump to win the election.
“The purpose of the meeting, according to the emails, was to “provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia” as part of "Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump”.” - independent.co.uk
[1]
This is just one of many examples of how the alt-right has no understanding of reality.
Venezuela's Socialist and Deaths Under Communism
Another lie the right wing often tell is how socialism failed. In fact, there has been more proven deaths under capitalism per capita due to poverty than capitalist’s claim have been killed under communism. 805 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat, while the world actually over-produces food. Much of this food is thrown away because it does not look good enough to sell in first-world stores. Capitalists claim the great famines during the time of the soviet union were caused by communism. I guess Stalin controlled the rain and ate all the grain himself
then. [2]
Here is a nice video on that.
Many capitalists say their system is better while pointing to countries like Venezuela. Venezuela is not socialist, it is dominated by the private sector. Socialism is where the workers themselves control the means of production, if there is private property it is not socialism.
In fact Venezuela is so capitalist the private sector dominates healthcare, which is not seen in almost any first world country. (Note: Even if it didn’t just because it is paid for by taxes doesn’t make it socialism, just welfare capitalism.) Public sector employment is actually less than in France, Britain, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. [3]
The US government doesn’t even support democracy in Venezuela. They literally funded anti-democratic riots, just because the anti-capitalist won the election. Too bad he actually hasn't had a chance to move the country left. (If you want to know why you can see my post on why social democracy is stupid.) To sum it up democracy can’t make a country socialist because the capitalists still have power. [3]
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You a right winger that is triggered? Leave
Right winger that is triggered and staying! You're getting an up vote for sharing your opinions, and I hope you're 'triggering' a good and frank debate on those topics. I think you're wrong on pretty much all accounts, but appreciate your sharing them. Maybe more later ;-)
full upvote for being willing to spend time with the ill informed, to try to help them get informed
other way around actually, if you read the conversation ;)
let me guess, you can't even define socialism?
Someone doesn't agree with you so they are an idiot?
did I say that?
You kinda did ;-). Not directly. But you implied that I was unqualified for the debate by making assumptions (which turned out to be correct) about my familiarity with what you were trying to talk about
I have met a total of 2 capitalists online that could correctly define socialism, its not just an assumption at this point.
Not like a school system run by capitalists would willingly teach people anything other than propaganda.
Like I said, the term 'correctly define' is logically corrupt - the only thing that can be true or false are the claims we derive from our definitions. Definitions are made up by the definer, and they can be anything. I admit to not taking AP Socialism, but I did have a little bit of philosophy ;-)
Ok how about this, are too stupid/lazy to understand the basic definitions of words in contexts other than fox news.
Oh please, that is absolutely what you were intending to imply with your response to his comment. Or am I to believe that you think the definition of socialism is so compelling that anyone who knows it will instantly agree with you?
can you fuck off
Typical.
Hhmm... I think socialism is hard to define. I also think that logically there are no right or wrong definitions. Statements or derivations can be true or false, but the standard for definitions is if they're useful, since the 'definer' can define them any way they want. I think socialism is difficult to define - what's your definition? I'm pretty good a defining capitalism though!
Socialism is collective ownership of the means of production.
Collective ownership of the means of production is more efficient and free in every possible way, well except for the freedom to oppress.
Communism and Socialism do not mean the same thing. Communism is an extreme of socialism. In a socialist government the means of production would typically be controlled by the government. The idea with Communism is that there is no position of power because everybody is equal and therefore the means of production are collective.
Thanks for sharing that definition. Now that we have a working definition, under that definition, who decides what gets produced?
"who decides what gets produced?"
It really depends on what the society decides at that point. Sometimes it runs purely on a command economy, where what is needed or wanted is measure and produced. That has proven to work well in the past, I forgot the country but it was able to function on 10-20% of its trucks used for moving resources, when any other countries economy grinds to a halt at that point.
The specific person or group who decides really depends. In anarchist it takes longer to adjust for demand but there is more freedom. In a mlm economy it is run by councils between the areas involved in that production and those who need what is being produced.
How does 'society' decide? Who do I call when I need to speak to 'society'? How do you 'measure' what is needed? Oh, and please do reply when you remember that one country in which socialism worked
oh here we go, this is what I was looking for:
"2000: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice Capitalism. Can you list a single successful Socialist country?"
1900: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice Imperialism. Can you list a single successful non-Imperialist country?"
1800: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice slavery. Can you list a single successful free country?"
1700: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice Monarchy. Can you list a single successful Republican country?"
1600: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice Mercantilism. Can you list a single successful Capitalist country?
1500: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice Catholicism. Can you list a single successful Protestant country?
1400: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice Feudalism. Can you list a single successful non-Feudalist country?"
300: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice Paganism. Can you list a single successful Christian country?"
1200 BC: "I I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice bronze working. Can you list a single successful iron working country?"
3000 BC: "I can list you a ton of successful, first-world countries that practice stone working. Can you list a single successful bronze working country?""
"Oh, and please do reply when you remember that one country in which socialism worked"
well the USSR is one example, so good in fact 80% of the people voted to keep it communist. The only reason it turned capitalist is an opportunist somehow made it into the top of the party.
http://writetorebel.com/2016/11/25/the-successes-of-socialism-in-the-ussr/
others I liked was Revolutionary Spain, Cuba and Nicaragua.
" Who do I call when I need to speak to 'society'? "
it really depends. As long as the workers are in control of the means of production it is socialism. The exact structure that comes from that changes from group to group.
Can I speak to your market about prices please?
"How do you 'measure' what is needed? "
You mean the economic calculation problem? It has a name you know
"Firms manage to have central planning and they don't struggle with the "calculation problem" in fact the centrally planned capitalist firm is about the strongest argument you could have in favour of central planning."
not going to bother going beyond that quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/3fjh8g/how_could_you_refute_the_economic_calculation/
here is a post I made on anti-capitalism earlier, you might want to check it out.
https://steemit.com/economics/@anarchyhasnogods/the-basics-of-anti-capitalism-exploitation-and-imperialism-part-one
Almost everything you published was factually wrong. Please do you research.
One example - literally NO ONE doesnt know that Don Trump Jr. had a meeting. He said it himself, he never hid it, so don't pretend you are breaking news.
The things you failed to mention:
The best summary from Jared Kushner - the Trump campaign could not collude with the Russians, because the campaign wasn't even competent enough to collude with their own head office.
If you want to be outraged about "the Russian angle", are you outraged that Obama and the Obama administration knew for 8 months before the election that the Russians were trying to influence the election. Obama and Obama administration did nothing about that, and even tried to down play that it could ever happen.
Those are facts.
There are currently no facts regarding any collusion between Donald Trump and the Russians. A 20 minutes meeting falls well short of collusion.
What is your comment to Obama?
There is NO SERIOUS PERSON out there that would even suggest you could influence an election!!
"One example - literally NO ONE doesnt know that Don Trump Jr. had a meeting. He said it himself, he never hid it, so don't pretend you are breaking news"
except for the research poll?
"What is your comment to Obama?"
That he is ruling class and should be destroyed along with the rest of capitalists.
wow... even when confronted with overwhelming evidence, the average trump supporter still will not believe. to use our "dear leaders" own term... SAD...
Well, what happened is far worse. Stalin's chief of agriculture told the peasants to sow the grain on top of the snow, then when the snow melts the seeds will be watered and the wheat will grow. Unfortunately, as any farmer will tell you, what this does is rot the wheat seeds and nothing grows. And so, not only was no wheat grown, but all of the wheat that kept for seed was destroyed too.
Yes, capitalism throws away food. But, you go and try to connect this with capitalism being the reason for famines everywhere else? The grasshopper died during the winter because those mean ants would not share the food they stored up all summer?
The best example of communism leading to starvation was the pilgrims. They initially started out as a communist/socialist group. And they were beset by constant famine. Until they changed their social structure to capitalism. Then, the pilgrims started growing lots of food, in and around their houses and every corner, because now, they were incentavized because they could keep what they grew. After the pilgrims had plenty of food.
The Delusional Right Wing - well that just about sums it up... I would add pretty much every other political affiliation to the designation "delusional" as well. Are the democrats / liberals any less delusional, is America as a whole even conscious at this point.? In the era of "alternative facts" it should not surprise anyone that the republican masses wont believe "actual facts" even when confronted with overwhelming evidence to back them up.
Anyone who has actually read Karl Marx's "The Communist Manifesto" would know that the modern examples of communism (Former USSR, Cuba, East Germany, etc.) are not at all what was envisioned by Marx. In fact, in his 1867 book "Capital" Marx warned against what would eventually become the modern socio-fascist movement - Merging industry with the state. Coincidentally if you just look past the "something shiney" bullshit being fed to us on the news every day, you can see that is exactly what is happening...
I am by no means a supporter of either doctrine - communism or socialism - but we as Americans claim socialism to be "bad" all the while collecting the benefits of a properly administered social program - social security, medicaid, medicare, unemployment insurance, food stamps, etc.etc.etc...(well maybe not food stamps but you get the point) ... :/
"Are the democrats / liberals any less delusional,"
nope
to be fair the manifesto is trash
As a guide for that specific method of governance - agreed...
yeah, mlm is better.
BTW I'm no Trump fan. I dislike him as much as you do (probably). He's kind of a unique problem. I think he's a nationalist, he doesn't understand one bit if economics, and he's completely missing a basic respect for the law. I just think that the whole left/right distinction forces us into camps that really only the extreme ends of each spectrum are comfortable with.
I don't care about trump. He is of ruling class and the only difference between him and hillary is that he is louder about it, that essentially sums up the differences between the democrats and republicans.
Obama deported more people than any president before him and by no means cut ties to dictators.
Who knew - we agree on something! Glad I stayed ;-)
but here is the difference. I believe imperialism must come out of capitalism.
Here is a book on that one
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/
I have links too! For example, about that rampant capitalism in Venezuela:
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/venezuela
venezuela is capitalist, they have only elected a socialist lmao The majority of their workers are in private industry, while the literal definition of socialism is worker control of the means of production.
Also that site is pure propaganda, its like going to www.Iloveoil.com for facts on climate change.
They tried to do is peacefully, so the capitalists are attacking the economy like they did chile just to stay in power.
All you are is propaganda, I thought we might have a decent conversation, oh well.
You don't get to decide what's propaganda and what's not - we can't have a discussion that way. I promise I won't use it either. On Venezuela, I think you may be right actually. I think the issue with Venezuela is lack of freedom. It seems to be a dictatorship. China too has sort of a form of capitalism but limited individual freedom. So yes, capitalism is not a panacea. My contention would be however that truly free societies can only work with capitalism - which is different than to say that all capitalist societies are by definition free (with Venezuela and China as counter examples). I would however claim that all socialist/communist countries (under your definition) are not free, if by freedom we mean that individuals can (i) say what they want, (ii) go where they want, (iii) take any available job they want, ... so capitalism isn't perfect and prone to corruption, but some form of capitalism is essential for individual freedom. Now you can lay into me....
"It seems to be a dictatorship. "
yeah, by the rich
" My contention would be however that truly free societies can only work with capitalism"
capitalism is private ownership of the means of production. This private ownership was originally stolen during the enclosure acts and other acts of economic and political violence. The only way they still exist is more of the same. As the rate of profits fall and capitalism expands it is forced into monopoly and then imperalism. These are inescapable facts of the system. It can never be free because it relies on a government to exist to uphold the ruling class.
On top of that your level of freedom is equal to the amount of resources you can take from others through private ownership of capital. It is literally oppression.
Isn't labor the most important means of production? In capitalism that's privately owned, and in socialism it's owned communal. Not owning your own labor is a form of slavery to me. And why does the rate of profits fall? Do you have any data on that? The way I see it, corporate profits in the US are at crazy high levels when compared to wage growth and GDP growth. Seems that in some sense, capitalism is working too well... And I disagree with your definition of freedom (but that's OK, since it's a definition!). I think you know mine...
Gotta go to bed now! Need to work for the man on Monday so I don't starve to death. This was fun - thanks for the back and forth
http://anticapitalismfaq.com/
This is a nice FAQ on anti-captialism. You might want to read it through before we continue this tomorrow.
Make sure to click the links, there is a lot more than just the front page.
TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP. MAGA! Move to europoor!
fuck off, go seig hail somehere else
America is the best country to live in, face it. why do you think everyone is trying to get in this country? And why is I am automatically a nazi because I support my president? I love all races the same.
because we are imperialist and the others are our bases
If you look at the numbers - America is by a huge margin "Not" the best country to live in and very few people are trying to "come here" anymore. I consider myself to be a patriot so take this with that in mind... Do your own research and stay off of Fox News - it will serve you much better if you do...
ok dave, like I said you and the other delusional folks can move to europoor. The US can self sustain itself better than any other country out there. Close the trade embargoes and see how well the world does without the US. You will have to move and get your latte in France.
Close the trade embargoes.? Not sure what that means..?? You may very well be right that the US can sustain itself better than any other country out there, unfortunately more and more countries (especially in Europe) are coming to the realization, they don't want, nor do they need the US anymore - so we just may have the chance to see if you are correct. As far as my latte is concerned, almost all of the coffee consumed in the world comes from Columbia, Panama, and Costa Rica - I think were safe, for now...
We do not care about europoor either, what do they contribute?
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