I don't owe you anything... You may form a gang and take it by force, but that still does not mean I OWED it.

in #philosophy5 years ago (edited)


If you are breathing then it is likely you have seen things you perceive as crazy going on around you in the world. Your mind kicks into overdrive as it tries to make sense of these things and to fit them in the world. Many people tend to only view actions from their own motivations. There are those that will attack and make claims about people and due to their inability to put themselves into other people's shoes and IMAGINE they actually end up projecting. Such people tell us a lot about their motivations, and thoughts simply by how they choose to label and attack others. That doesn't mean everyone is doing this. It tends to be from people that are like the proverbial broken record that are doing this. If they are attack, attack, attack and seeing them pause to give concessions in their thoughts or consider different perspectives is not something that happens then that likely means they are narrow minded, tunnel visioned, etc. Such people tend to visualize from their own perceptions and their own beliefs. The attack might be motivated by not liking anything that challenges what they've already decided to be the "truth" about reality.

There are some hot button topics where it is easy to attract such individuals and occasionally you can attract a mass of them that believe similar things and then it is a herd attack. This is becoming more and more common of an experience as our education system forced upon us by the state/government veers further and further from simply giving our youth the tools to survive, grow, and express their individuality and instead seems to be focused more on conformity, and teaching them how to attack anything that challenges what they have been told. It is more indoctrination, and cult like these days than it is an actual education. We are seeing the effects of this on a global scale, with some countries being impacted more than others.

The hot topic buttons usually involve HOW TO FIX THE WORLD be it via politics, "science", or other ideologies. It essentially becomes a battle of ideologies and if the person is a PROJECTIONIST then they likely will be projecting what belief has been built by them over time and a lot of that likely came from the education system, and some sources that sounded good to them at the time. This can actually be worse from intelligent people. I tend to view intelligence and wisdom as two very different things. Intelligence may be the wrong term used here as well. In might actually be more a matter of how WILLFUL they are. What is their force of will? Intelligence combined with a strong Will can often lead to a rather intractable mind that it is very difficult to sway to think in new ways. I speak from experience. My own. Yes, it is anecdotal but in reality all each of us has is our own anecdotal experiences of what we perceive. Those anecdotal experiences can include hearing, reading, or otherwise receiving communication from other people and if we TRUST them we may be swayed to incorporate their ideas into our own world view. The problem is when that world view has built in PROTECTION mechanisms to lash out at those that challenge it. This is a favored technique of religion, but it has also migrated into our education system.

It has also migrated into our "science" and the reason I enclosed science in quotation marks in several places in this stream of consciousness blog was to intentionally emphasize the so-called aspect of it. I very much believe in the tool known as the scientific method. If people use it and follow it then I consider that science. Many so-called scientists these days use it when it is convenient and ignore it when it is not. They are not truly scientists. Today that seems to not really matter as we sling labels around almost as liberally as we breathe. You challenged me? You must be racist, a nazi, a left leaning idiot, a right leaning idiot, a satanist, a luciferian, a sexist, etc. One thing that generally seems to be left out is that I might be an individual and just have my own mind. I consider individualism important and beautiful. I am not a particular fan of herd, group mentality. Present me with some evidence, let me think, let me draw my own conclusions rather than forcing your own upon me.

Now this is an absurdly long build up to why I initially started writing this post. That's how I roll sometimes when I just let my mind flow and churn out whatever happens to be bouncing around in there.


Often the concept of equality will come up. This is not surprising as it is one of the major hot button topics. The bulk of the wealth (though I'm going to call it power) is in the hand of an extremely small minority of people. I don't like to call them the one percent, because they are actually much smaller in number than that when compared to the actual population.

As humans we see this, and most of us are not happy about it. I am not particularly happy about it. So naturally we try to think of solutions. The proposed solutions that people come up with can span a huge gambit. There is an aspect of most of these solutions that I believe largely comes from our narrow mindedness and also our education system.

We are indoctrinated into believing that government is the solution to our woes. "See a problem?" Tell, the government about it. They can fix it. We may go further and tell the government HOW TO FIX IT. Often with the intractable idea that our idea is the solution, and the only way. We'll gleefully attack anyone that says otherwise.

There is a problem here. The problem is put into us from early days. We as children need structure, love, attention, and guides to help us navigate the early years of our life so that we can survive and be prepared to go out on our own. Ideally, we would leave such a process prepared to be individuals and think for ourselves. Somewhere along the line a lot of AUTHORITY FIGURE like rhetoric began to enter parenting, and education. This can come from religion, and it can come from obeying the state/government. Yet, these are ideas that essentially try to extend the parenting for the rest of your life. You are an "individual", but there is an authority that is always superior to your own mind... (and yes if you missed it many of my statements in this document are sarcastic in intent, and I realize that may make this confusing. I apologize)

The problem with this AUTHORITY is it is simply other people. Other individuals. Yet at some point they came to the conclusion they had the right and obligation to tell other people what they should do, how they should think, what is okay, and what is not okay. They begin to transcend the concept that they are individuals. They are people. They are not a god. Yet, many times in history we have elevated such people into a position where they are viewed and treated as a god. It is easy to be sucked into forgetting they are people. Guess what ALL people are wrong more often than they would like to admit. I intentionally used an absolute there with that word all.

So what about government? Well think back to Hammurabi and the early laws in Mesopotamia. We are taught these in school as being when laws entered history. Before then we are to assume it was chaos and madness. Then Hammurabi gave us laws such as "Eye for an eye", and "A thief loses a hand". Over time this has changed yet it still all is born from the concept that someone has the right to dictate how another person lives. We buy into this largely because the earlier and simpler laws initially seem to be common sense based. After all we shouldn't be stealing from each other, and attacking each other so having laws about what is going to happen seems to make a lot of sense as a deterrent for such activities.


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Yet it also creates a class system. So you can immediately throw the one percent idea out the door. It creates a class of those who get to dictate these rules. There also seems to be no limitation put on them upon what TYPE of rules they can create. These rules then essentially usually include an enforcement arm that will make people comply, or they'll be "dealt" with in whatever ways have been deemed acceptable by the rule makers. The rule makers will also typically come up with rules for how you can become a rule maker. Sometimes it is hereditary, sometimes it is religious, sometimes it is an election, and there are many varieties.


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One thing that historically seems to hold true is that these rule makers are generally not held accountable to the same rules that they impose upon others. They also tend to make rules that insure they remain as the rule makers, and that they can gain further and further POWER over those they "rule". They will usually doe this incrementally making small changes that over time add up to a big change. People will generally push back at big changes, but millennia of trial and error has taught rulers that if they do it small incremental steps at a time they can still get their big change, and people generally will not complain. In fact with some carefully crafted events the people might even DEMAND some of these changes.


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The people will forget that they have empowered other people with the right to FORCE other people to do things. So much of this falls back on the concepts of equality and perception of "justice".


Now we get to the original reason I was inspired to write this and yes it took a lot of time. I apparently had a lot to say. Whether it was worth saying or not is irrelevant to me. I just needed to breathe it into words.

So often solutions related to equality will fall on some form of redistribution. There is voluntary redistribution where people make their case and those that have something they can redistribute do so because they think it is a good idea and they do it of their own free will. I am all for that form of redistribution. This is not generally where these redistributionary ideas go. Instead they usually task "government" with the redistribution. Some ideologies convince people that taking it all away and saying it belongs to no one, but in fact belongs to everyone. Yet, this still requires rulers who oversee this and try to make it work. These rulers still play the power game. All that game requires as that some people have rights to dictate what is allowed, or required from other people. Other ideologies convince people that as long as the majority think it is good to redistribute things that belongs to others then it is perceived as just.

I wish to focus on variants of that last one. Essentially it boils down to this. If the majority says it is okay then it is okay to steal. They'll even do some doublethink and their brain will seemingly fall out of their head when you call it stealing. "It is not stealing, it is tax". Somehow we have been conditioned to believe that because a government is doing something that makes it okay. Things that if you, a group, or myself were to do would be considered a crime suddenly is acceptable as long as the government does it.

This is used to do what I consider a great deal of evil. I am not speaking of that from a religious point of view. For me good and evil are very easy to define. Good is living your life, producing, experiencing, and making choices for yourself. Evil is making choices for others and forcing it upon them. The sole exception to this evil is as a guiding nurturing of youth as we are not equipped to survive without our parents. Thus, in parenting there is some forcing and compliance with the wishes of the parent that is required to help our children learn to survive on their own. It should stop at the point that child decides they are going to go out on their own. Sometimes that may be a flawed choice for the child. The key is they made the choice. At the point they choose to leave the proverbial nest and become an individual then at that point the responsibility of their choices falls upon them. A little common sense kicks in. A parent will likely know if letting the child leave the nest at that time is essentially a death sentence or not and should act in relation to that. In otherwords, a five year old throwing a tantrum and saying "I'm running away" should be monitored to let them think they are running away and to keep them out of danger. Likely, they'll change their mind pretty quickly and it becomes a good life lesson. If they don't change their mind and danger rears it's head the parent can swoop in and hopefully save the day.

A great flaw in our thinking (yes, my opinion) is our growing belief that we not only have the right, but the obligation to "protect" everyone from making what we perceive as the wrong choices. We'll go so far as to pass laws making many choices not even an option.

We embrace the belief that we can and should force others to live the way we WANT them to live. We attempt to steal their individuality from them. As you may be noticing this goes much further than taxation.

Taxation is simply an easy one. It is the low hanging fruit.

If a gang decides they need more supplies for tagging in their area and they wander around the neighborhood asking for donations and they allow you to choose to donate or not donate to their cause with no negative repercussions then that is voluntary. If on the other hand they come around and they ask for your donations and strongly imply that bad things will happen if you do not donate then that is coercion. It is force. You will be coerced into doing it out of a sense of survival. With time they may have perfected it. They may actually stop going to you at all. They simply go to your employer. They tell that employer. "Let me see how much you're going to give that person" and your employer through coercion complies. They take some of the money, and hand the remainder back to your employer.

In such a scenario we would see this as a criminal activity. We would most definitely see it as theft.

Yet, when we wrap it up in a nice little neat bow called "government" suddenly we view it as sacrosanct and sacred. It is no longer theft, because the gang has chosen the label "government".

I am all for helping other people. I simply believe we can solve the vast majority of problems (avoiding the use of ALL even though I can't think of an exception at the moment) using voluntary methods.

There is a logical fallacy in critical thinking. It is called an Appeal to Authority Fallacy and it is used widely. It is when someone name drops to try to PROVE a point. "It must be true because famous person X says it is..." This is an appeal to authority fallacy. It is a fallacy, because who believes something does not make something true. Evidence is what makes something true or not true, and new evidence can change what was previously thought to be true to be false.

Why do I mention this?

The largest Appeal To Authority mechanisms I see out there come with two simple labels. Government, and Religion.

Why do people go to government for equality issues?

If the government is stealing from people they don't think is is actually stealing. So while they have learned to recognize the fact that if they themselves STEAL from someone else (aka Robinhood) to give to themselves or someone else that it is a crime and a bad thing, they use the appeal to authority that is implied in government to justify the same actions.

The government does not actually produce anything but rules, war, and waste/corruption. So the government cannot magically give FREE anything to anyone. They don't produce things. They can steal from others and then give it to other people. They can wrap that up in labels such as "free healthcare", "free education", etc. Yet, the teachers still need to get paid, the materials to teach with still need to be purchased, the medications and tools still require payment. Those things don't go away because the government is involved. When they say "FREE" it really means they are going to have to either STEAL MORE, or go further into DEBT which YOU are responsible for paying back.

Essentially in the earlier gang example. People start complaining about "too much tagging". The gang says "We'll make that stop and we'll patrol". They then go to that employer and take just a little bit more of your wages so they can pay the new "patrol" and some of that extra "tax" will potentially go into the ones who make the rules pockets.


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The waste/corruption is that anytime a rule is passed there is a chance the rule makers will find a way to benefit themselves or some other agenda by attaching it to that rule. This leads to resources that could be focused on the problem often being diverted or grafted as a form of corruption. This is where things like the $2000 toilet seat, $500 hammer, etc come from. Sure, we'll buy hammers from this "bidder" which obviously was not a low bid, and they in turn will buy thousands of my book, and pay for expensive speaking dinners where I speak. This is corruption.


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Now one thing people often like to do is blame money. It is not money that is the problem. It is the problem that we let others dictate how we live. It long ago left the eye for an eye laws.

Back then eye for an eye was simply a warning "You punch me in the face, I'm going to punch you back".

"You steal from me, I'm going to cut off your hand, so don't steal"

It was simple and the consequences were there.

That is much different from "You will pay X percent of your income to me, and I'm going to do things with it. Some of them may help you. Some of them may not. If you don't comply I'll throw you in jail, and if you resist that I'll kill you"

I truly believe we have the technology now to solve most of these problems without the need for a government. I wrote about it in my post on an Optimistic View of the Future.

The problem is that those that seek power are entrenched. They will not willingly give up that power. I wrote a bit about that in my follow up to the optimistic view.

I want to close this post with this. The word Anarchy which has been hijacked to mean some negative things originally meant an-archos. No Rulers. In otherwords, there are not other people that get to make your choices for you.

It does not mean chaos. That is the hijacking to spin it as negative so people will shy away from thinking about whether they really need rulers and whether there might be alternative ways of doing things. These days I tend to use the term voluntary, voluntarism, etc instead of anarchy as then I avoid the land mines they are placing with their propaganda and I shoot straight to the heart of what I believe in with a simple word.


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Good Ideas do not require force.


EDIT: The Doctor of Common Sense


I just watched a few videos from The Doctor of Common Sense on youtube and I wanted to include one that I thought was relevant:

This Isn’t Your Grandparents America Folks: Stealing Is Good Now!

If DACA Is So Great, What About California, Mexico, And Chicago? How Is That Working Out?

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"I very much believe in the tool known as the scientific method. If people use it and follow it then I consider that science. Many so-called scientists these days use it when it is convenient and ignore it when it is not."

I've noticed that the trend today is to simply goal-seek studies by attempting to commission the groups most likely to come up with the result you want. If you do not get the result you want, you disown the study, bury it if possible, and recommission it with another group under new criteria that will confirm the result you want.

Once you finally get the result you want, you can claim that the study followed a correct scientific method and was unbiased. Technically, the study didn't cherry-pick any data, (the proverbial) you simply cherry-picked what studies you were going to deem valid.

It's a worrying trend. Censorship of the real, in general, is getting more and more skillfully executed.

I agree. There is another aspect of that which is troubling. For the scientific method to truly work we need to know about failures as well as successes. Failures can be nearly as important to the process. In fact, if we don't know of failures we likely have a lot of repeat studies being done all over the place which is highly inefficient.

"Failures can be nearly as important to the process."

I think scientists might often remove the world nearly here.

Yep. :) I almost did. Then I thought. Once they succeed there technically are no more failures on that exact subject. Yet there will be new failures on trying new things. So since success was reached that's why I put nearly in there. That was my thought process.

Good point. It's hard not to argue the "one combination to the lock" isn't more valuable than any single faulty combination.

Interesting article, I agree with pretty well all that you have written.
One thought on the difference between Intelligence & wisdom, a definition I have often used is "educated idiots" which basically describes people who are academically brilliant, have MA's ,Phd's, etc. but when faced with simple real world situations, be they physical or social are completely inept, Whereas people with wisdom, also known as "commonsense" can deal with these problems easily.
Modern education seems to be more like brainwashing to fit into the governments plans for you and tends to be completely useless at teaching wisdom, deliberately, as people with wisdom can see through the governments manipulations and try to change them which threatens the less than one percent who want everything to stay the same with them at the top of the pile.
I like to try and be positive and think that more people are seeing through them these days with the internet making it much easier for people to see the reality, but of course as the elite feel more threatened they become more authoritarian in their efforts to control us and you start to wonder if they'd rather destroy everything than lose control. the more you think about it the easier it is to despair of the whole situation, but we must stay strong as change is coming.....

Good response. I agree. I too think more people are waking up but it is not with the HELP of the government as I am certain you are aware it is despite the attempted intervention of the government. This is one of the reasons they are so adamantly interested in controlling the internet and while places like Google, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube are actively censoring or rigging results to try to only allow the agenda the "government" is pushing through.

More of us are waking up. The problem is that there still are a lot of cult members out there who drank the government's koolaid and blindly follow all the appeal to authority falacies that are sent their way. They are also to some degree being militarized to counter those that have awakened to the farce.

Wow, lengthy and insightful post.

When the authority is enforcing immorality or abusing their authority, I am an anti-authoritarian. When the authority is just and righteous (moral), I am pro-authoritarian.

If a person believes morality is subjective and relative, then this would be a position which makes no sense at all. That's why so many people give up and declare all authorities to be evil, even those that sustain civilization.

These wicked days I find myself more anti-authoritarian, however rather than resist the authority, I appeal to the ultimate authority, YHVH. I believe He has the final say.

We are slaves and don't even realize it. The world system wants to be our benefactor, not because it cares for us, but because that's what a slave-master does for his slaves. Food, shelter, healthcare, indoctrination (education).

I believe that someday, there will be a release from slavery that will make the Exodus from Egypt look like small potatoes. @ironshield

Being narrow-minded is not a personality flaw. It is a bad habit we are all susceptible to. It takes constant vigilance and practice to avoid the hate it brings.

Yes, I actually think that the more "intelligent" we are the more intractable we can sometimes become about believing other people may have better or different answers that could work. That's why I briefly mentioned there is a difference between Intelligence and Wisdom.

dumb down the masses so they cannot AFFORD think for themselves.. hand out what little is left and come out looking like a savior. Slavery is still around; it never went away and is largely imposed on the mind.

We still have plantations too. We call them prisons. That's why we imprison people for victimless crimes for longer than those that actually had victims. Peaceful people make better slaves.

that's why when the work runs out on a false economy shit would hit the storm.. WAR ANYONE?

It's also why when I hear the term "Made In America" I wonder if it was made by someone in or out of prison.

Always enjoy your well thought out and well presented posts my friend. My minds engine is running.............

Shared for others to understand that "Common Sense" is not so common anymore...
Well done @dwinblood.

great job, upvoted as well

I envy your ability to put your thoughts to words!
You have the ability to communicate your ideas and meaning with good post,that I enjoy reading .
So glad that you are part of this platform,and helping spread truth,and knowledge.
I would love to hear your solution to the less than 1% problem,condition.
That is the #1 problem I see in the world,and to change the world it has to be addressed,or we are going to continue to be bought and sold on there privately owned planet. They are above the law because they operate from positions of immunity.and that alone creates inequity .
Namaste!

Thanks. I'll think about your question. See if it builds into something that begs to be free from my mind. :)

When I have that sensation is when I enjoy it the most and when the post seems to be the best to me. I could take a stab at answering you now, but I'd be forcing it. If I take your question as a seed though and let it grow, that could prove interesting. It has already begun to grow.

I have no problem dropping in to help water the seed's. Love to watch things grow and bloom!
;-)
look forward to a bountiful harvest,of your opinions and ideas.
Namaste

Wow. I had 5 points lined up to mention/respond to. However:
> I just needed to breathe it into words.

My response would have been like that. So just the one:

The word Anarchy which has been hijacked 1 to mean some negative things originally meant 2an-archos. No Rulers.

1. It is a thing that people in power are good at, if it is for the Individual, we must make it be bad.
2. an-archos=?Archons?

I consider individualism important and beautiful.

That sums it all up pretty nicely.

Yes, As far as I understand it an-archos was essentially anti-rulers with I believe the Archos being a variant on Archon. It's been more than a year since I dug into that. So it is one of those things that I state, without having the notes I had before handy. They are buried somewhere in my mass of steemit posts. :P

mass of steemit posts

That is something I think most of us are going through, and me only coming up on my 44th day

I know in the more than a year I have been here that there are some cool posts from the past I should repost. The problem is there are so many of them I am not sure where to even begin. :)

You would have a hard time scrolling all the way back one year. I get stopped anymore at about 4 months. When I first signed on I could go back a whole year but not now. One of the steem dev guys/gals said it is a known glitch to them. (Thank you for the upvotes, I got hit by bernies house of cards bot patrol on a post.)

I tend to use google or some of the steem search engines to try to find older posts, but if I know I had a cool post but can't remember what to search for it can be really hard to find.

It'd be really cool if they had a calendar like thing that let you pick a calendar month and it showed you all your posts from that month.

Since I am still real new here, I do a lot of digging. You can use asksteem search engine it is pretty new and only searches steemit, or that is what I was lead to believe.
The only other way I have found to get really old stuff pretty faast is to use Steemd. It takes no time at all to go back to the beginning. https://steemd.com/@dwinblood?page=624 would take you back to day 1. (Very important if you want me to edit that out I will) Your first post was actually a comment to crypt0.

Yeah I forgot asksteem that was the one I was trying to think of. A friend of mine made steemshovel.com before that, but he stopped working on it awhile back due to not really being able to keep paying for it. He didn't post much, he just developed so he didn't get a lot of income from steem to keep it going.

It was based on elastic search like Asksteem.

As to editing stuff out. No need. I know the blockchain is uncensored and I have nothing to hide. Thanks for the offer though.

Great post...really enjoyed it.

These are all valid points but you should also discuss how employers tax their employees....

Employers come in many different forms. I ultimately don't care what goes on between them and their employees as long as it is VOLUNTARY meaning it did not require coercion.

If you and I want to work together we discuss and come up with an agreement/contract. As long as we stick to that contract it is between you and I.

Sure but that is where the root of the problem starts, everyone that earns an hourly wage pays a tax to their employer. If say you make $10 per hour but your hour of labor produces $30 of revenue for your employer. Your employer give you $10, pays for company expenses with the next $10 and the last $10 is profit he can do with whatever he wants. So right there he just taxed you $10 (or stole) per hour. That is how the 1% is created, that profit goes to owners/share holders of which some don't even work. They just collect money from others labor. That is no different from what the gov is doing...

That is no different from what the gov is doing...

It's very different. It is also not a tax. A tax is not voluntary. If you don't like how the employer is doing things don't work for them. If you don't like how the government is doing things the common strawman argument of "then move" is very unrealistic.

Your employer owes you NOTHING beyond what you agree to when agreeing to work for them. There is no tax of any kind there and it isn't even remotely the same thing. What you see there is envy and a person deciding they are being stolen from for their labor. Which is not even remotely true.

That extra revenue for the employer also "can" go to expanding the business and giving more people work. If there is a government involved the government is also going to be taking from that. Yet, regardless. NO ONE OWES YOU OR ME a damn thing. You have absolutely no right to decide what I do with my income, and I have no right to decide what you do.

If that employer didn't exist the employee wouldn't even have that opportunity. If the employer busted their asses for years to get to that point and an employee comes along they are not OWED from the employer an equal share in the profits UNLESS the employer and employee decide that case.

I am all for presenting people with opportunities. Presenting people with open doors. Yet it is not me or anyone elses job to pick up and carry people through those doors.

Sure its the same thing.
Giving up part of the revenue your labor creates to your employer is not voluntary either, you have to do it or else the employer would not give you a job.... I guess everyone could become self employed unfortunately that is not realistic in our current economy.... worker coops are a more realistic solution to this problem.

Your labor creates revenue. Your employers takes part of that revenue as profit for themselves.

You earn an income. The government takes part of that income for itself.

These are both forms of taxation/theft, the major difference is at least when the gov takes your money you know it will spend 100%+ of it back into the economy and create jobs. When your employer takes your money a lot of it will end up sitting in bank accounts not doing anything, and that is why we have the most unequal wealth distribution in human economic history http://fortune.com/2017/01/16/world-richest-men-income-equality/

Let's agree to disagree. I see a huge difference, you do not.

Ok, yep, there is no difference to me, I think the whole picture needs to be discussed of how money flows through the economy. The gov is not the only one who taxes/steals from people. Private corporations/employers do the same thing. If they did not our economy would not look as it does today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States

Different people are skilled and motivated differently. I might be glad to go to work daily, with no responsibility to be sure the work was there to perform, rather to have a secure "job". Others are more motivated to take risk, or to develop skills that pay more. As a business owner, I had to make payroll to keep good employees, even when I had to do without pay for my family. My sales people did not have to worry if the product would be there, and my "producers" did not have to worry if I would find them useful work. Every year there was a dry period, and the only one who did not get paid was my family. I believed in my ideas, and I was blessed by Providence to make it through. Every man got paid what we agreed upon, dry season or not. Was that a tax???

I see focusing on wealth equality as just kicking the can down the road. It is paying attention to the smoke and mirrors while ignoring the magician. There are issues of power and influence whether money is involved or not. Money just happens to be one of the easiest of tools to express that, but it is certainly not the only one.

Though I do think the way money is used needs to be explored. I don't give a shit about WEALTH equality. I only care about equality of opportunity. The only issue I have with wealth is when it is used for undue influence. Yet when I get around to tackling my perspective on how I think we could attack this that'll give you more meat to latch onto and talk about. I'm still thinking about it at the moment.

I thought I'd add. I don't see employers being able to FORCE employees to do anything without the backing of government. In a voluntary society the employer and employee would decide whether they wanted to work together. They would not have to worry about government demands. They would not be FORCED to work for the employer.

There is the idea that they could be struggling and the mear struggle could be a form of coercion. Yet if you truly study such things, and particular bad monopolies I doubt you'll find any cases where that was not made possible and sustained due to government. I've been looking and haven't found any cases yet where that is not the case.

It's a dog eat dog world out there, everyone wants to succeed, n rise to the top of the pyramid. Sad world

There are different choices there. Everyone does want to succeed, but they also sometimes see their success as a path towards helping more people succeed. If I can create a business based around my ideas, products, etc yes I will succeed, but I also potentially am helping others succeed. Should they get the same as me for creating the ideas and products in the first place, in my opinion no, but I consider that to between the employer and the employee. They should voluntarily make a contract between them and the rest of us should stay out of it. If I make a contract to work for $0.01/hour somewhere for reasons of my own then that should be my choice, not the governments.

One's perception of success is a success.

yeah the world is messed up with the 1% holding so much wealth

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