Soldiers of Odin – Extremism in Disguise?

in #patriotism6 years ago (edited)

Continuing with another post on patriotism, like yesterday...

soldiers of Odin.jpg
It's a bit blurry picture, quick snap, but if you don't know who those people are, they're Soldiers of Odin.

Soldiers of Odin is a city street patrolling organisation, originating here in Finland, born as an answer for some criminal activity by immigrants – they patrol the streets making sure they are empty of crime and violence.

Their values:

  • independency and autonomy (on a national level)
  • against harmful immigration
  • against islamisation and multiculturalism
  • against EU and globalisation
    Source: from their own website (in Finnish).

So, they don't want people coming here that have poor chances for integration – I think that's reasonable, because you can't take a limitless amount of people in too quick without some clashes happening between the immigrants and main population, especially if they have a very different cultural background. However, they are fine with foreigners coming on the basis of working or studying.

Being against islamisation and multiculturalism is a bit of a controversial stance. The multiculturalism thing though – that's just straight up ironic, because we Finns ourselves are a mixture of western and eastern culture.
I think they are afraid of muslims 'taking over and raping and killing all the white people', if we are a bit dramatic. Personally, I don't really think it's that much of a religion as being the threat but – looking what has happened in Sweden – the formation of "no go zones" where most of the immigration population gets centered in certain districts, and that is what – to my understanding – creates most of the problems, not really the religion, as long as we don't start deriving any weird religious things into laws, which shouldn't be done with Christianity nor with Islam. And most people won't be extreme fundamentalists, not in Christianity, and I believe, not in Islam either.

So, I'm arguing that the problem is more sociological one rather than religious.

I mean, like stated, we can't take every single immigrant here – help yourself before you can help others – I guess that makes sense to an extent. But where do you draw these lines of being able the help others, how well do we have to be? Do we have to get the national dept to decrease? Not needing to increase taxes on poor? Something along those lines Soldiers of Odin think at least. Economics is another not so strong suit of mine, but it seems like almost every country is caught in a debt cycle, Finland too. On the other hand, capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, because even with world population increasing, the average gross domestic product has been increasing too. So even though there will be more people, it doesn't necessarily mean that the "pie" would get smaller for individual.

Oh, and globalisation – if they seriously think they can get rid of that, good luck, you probably have to find another planet to isolate to for that practice, globalisation isn't going anywhere, and it's not actually even as new of a phenomenon as people think. The world has been global for a long time now – demand for foreign products, silk, pepper, gold has existed for a long time, and therefore, also the transportation of them. Of course the delivering of a product was way slower back then compared to this day when globalisation has really ramped up with easy transportation and instant delivery of information, but still, since the days of people sailing to foreign countries and continents to buy and sell goods, the world has essentially been global.

But, back to the anti-globalists (who borrowed their symbol from the mythology of our neighbor) and their practice.

Their street patrolling itself is fine, even though bit intimidating, because they rarely initiate any harmful behavior. In a way it's admirable even, that people are taking the initiative themselves for taking care of others. But what I'm bit worried about, is they're values which might potentially attract extremism and create political polarization. On paper they don't approve any kind of extremism, but I think it's hard to deny that the practice of Soldiers of Odin wouldn't appeal on people attracted to such.

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I can only really comment from what I see in my home country but soldiers of odin soud like the typical near/far right group to me. Attempting to shroud their own extremist ideals behind a rhetoric about Muslims and immigrants. People have been moving around this world for thousands of years, all be it not in the same numbers we see today.

as long as we don't start deriving any weird religious things into laws, which shouldn't be done with Christianity nor with Islam. And most people won't be extreme fundamentalists, not in Christianity, and I believe, not in Islam either.

So, I'm arguing that the problem is more sociological one rather than religious.

You put it really well here and I couldn't agree more! Imo extremism is fed by separation and lack of understanding of others culture/beliefs. I grew up in a poor and ethnically diverse nieghbourhood in my hometown. What I observed there is that at least 99% of people of varying backgrounds lived in harmony, and in a lot of cases, built friendships and were close niegbors. Like they helped each other, regardless of colour, religion etc. I do recognise that there are places where this level of integration hasn't happened. Toxteth, where I grew up and still live, is a place that was partly settled by Jamaican immigrants over 100 years ago, so there has been plenty of time for this community to find its rhythm. But I would argue, in regards to the 'no go zones', that immigrants are now being pushed into ghettos, where they are all together, which precludes any chance of true integration to the scale that had happened in toxteth. I have met many immigrants who have moved into toxteth and are surprised and happy that they can access services to learn English; there are people, long settled and now 100% identify as Brits, of there own race alongside (white British) people getting along, and this helps them feel part of the new country they have arrived in. To be fair, the majority of people I speak to are asylum seekers, folks trying to escape war ravaged places.

It is quite hard for me to be completed objective in the sorts of debates etc, around immigration as I've grown up in a place that was enriched by immigration, but I do recognise that it is a very complicated issue. But as you pointed out, the issue is sociological, and the only real solutions are to go the soldiers of odin route of persecution (who gave them the right to do the police's job? Criminals, immigrants or none immigrants should be dealt with the same, through the process of law) or we integrate these people into our society in a way that encourages them to take an active role. I garuntee if someone feels welcome, they're more likely to find ways to contribute rather than commit crime.

Ha ha, I just read this back and realized it's turning into a novella of a comment. This was a real interesting post Celestal.

Ha ha, I just read this back and realized it's turning into a novella of a comment. This was a real interesting post Celestal.

Haha, no problem, man. I enjoy when I manage to extract such an input!

Attempting to shroud their own extremist ideals behind a rhetoric about Muslims and immigrants.

I tend to agree. While on paper it seems "ok", in reality they probably hold quite a big prejudice towards other cultures, especially from Islamic countries.

But I would argue, in regards to the 'no go zones', that immigrants are now being pushed into ghettos, where they are all together, which precludes any chance of true integration to the scale that had happened in toxteth.

I don't know why they end up like that, is it because of the hostile main population? Or the tendency to surround oneself with your own folk? Perhaps both...

I garuntee if someone feels welcome, they're more likely to find ways to contribute rather than commit crime.

Well said.

I think it's pretty awesome that you have been able to raise in a setting of diverse backgrounds that lived in harmony. Sounds like no matter how you look, people welcome you like a friend and can have a chat with ease and just hang around. It sounds like a really cool environment!

I guess it's just the initial reaction here, because there hasn't been that much immigration as today, that some are resentful towards it. Hopefully that'll change with time though, when they see that things in fact turn out fine (hopefully).

I guess it's just the initial reaction here, because there hasn't been that much immigration as today, that some are resentful towards it.

Yeah it is a complex issues for sure and as you said, with little immigration (historically) in your country the fear factor has got to be higher. Both legitimately and in the case of groups taking advantage of peoples legitimate concerns. It is a fine line to dance between what is basically just hate properganda and legitimate concern when it comes to the issues around immigration. I get around this on a personal level by ignoring all the poltics, even from the side that I'm probably more aligned with, can you guess I was brought up in a left wing environment lol

I try to work through it all in my own mind based on a standard of compassion weighed against the possibility of negatives (terrorism threats etc). History shows that humans are capable of great compassion but also, more often, great and terrible atrocity. Immigration and the movement of people is usually in direct response to acts of atrocity or war, although there has been more in response to economic factors in recent centuries. I guess there was also that type of movement back in biblical times as well but this just makes me clearer in my personal views around the whole thing. This has been going on for thousands of years without the world falling apart.

But this is not the message sons of Odin or other anti-immigration groups will be pedaling. They'd have you believe that immigrants will destroy your way of life. Hmmnnn, ok maybe, if people want to live a life where nothing ever changes, it will destroy that way of life for sure. It will destroy an illusion, a dream that was smoke and mirrors in the first place. One thing is certain, things will change, ha ha, change is good. Compassion toward immigrants and people in general outweighs the potential loss of life through the chance of terrorism for me. This type of attitude probably changes when you have children as protective instincts kick in but for me I can only way I can change the world through how I treat others, immigrants are just people who have been forced out or chosen to leave their home.

I don't know why they end up like that, is it because of the hostile main population? Or the tendency to surround oneself with your own folk? Perhaps both...

I think it may be a bit of both but I am sure the proliferation of far right groups throwing stones at them, calling them offensive names and in some cases hospitalizing them doesn't help in pushing immigrants into segregated communities. That is what groups like that want to do, segregate us all. It is easier to remove someones humanity when they are (perceived) separate from you, especially if they wear different clothes, pray to a different god etc.

I kind of got quite a passionate view about all this as one of my best friends from school is high up in one of the right wing groups in UK. I saw him in the pub after 10 years a few years back and he started spouting all their hate rhetoric at me. This guy had served in the marines by the way, so I was sort of watching what I said at first... but as time went on I couldn't hold back my opinion anymore and I told him straight what I knew would flip his lid as we had been close friends. I told him, after listening to his borderline racist crap for the best part of an hour, that my (then) girlfriend and her two daughters, who I loved very much like my own children, were of African origin. She was born of a white man and an African woman who was... yes you've guessed it... an immigrant in the 1970's. I straight up told him to shut up about all of that stuff, or we would have a problem. He had no answers, no come back and tried to walk away from me. It was like he simply couldn't compute it all now that it was an old friend who was one of the people who he had been indoctrinated into labeling a problem. I stopped him leaving and just asked that we move to another subject and we finished up our drinks talking about day-trips pond-dipping when we were 5-6 years old. This whole experience made me realize just how complex human perception is and how twisted some people can become by hate and fear. I never found out what triggered this friend to become this way but he wasn't like that when we were kids as we both had black and Asian friends.

Anyway, another novella comment in the making ;-)

This type of attitude probably changes when you have children as protective instincts kick in but for me I can only way I can change the world through how I treat others, immigrants are just people who have been forced out or chosen to leave their home.

Maybe it's also that people still hold a scarcity-mentality even though there's plenty to go around – natural instinct that too, I suppose. Lots of things that shape people's perception.

That story of your friend – it must a weird situation when one of your best friends (at least in the past) has such an opposing view, that's one to cause some cognitive dissonance big time. I'm glad you still got by – even with complete opposite views, it's better there's a bridge there, instead of nothing, which would divide you even further.

I completely agree about the scarcity mentality. Well I agree that it is something many people have but I honestly think it is something that is something that is negative in the long term. This whole world is over populated so everything is in danger of becoming scarce. Not sure what the solution to this fact is but demonizing each other ain't gonna help unless we just want to depopulate the world somewhat by causing as many wars as we possibly can lol

it must a weird situation when one of your best friends (at least in the past) has such an opposing view, that's one to cause some cognitive dissonance big time. I'm glad you still got by – even with complete opposite views, it's better there's a bridge there, instead of nothing, which would divide you even further.

Absolutely it was a mad, strange experience. But I too am glad it ended amicably... and not just because he probably would have beaten me badly in any altercation 😂

But in all seriousness, I don't know if I might have changed his thinking a little in that encounter. Who knows, one thing I do know is that if we had have left it sour or ended up arguing seriously, that would have just polarized his views even more.

Not sure what the solution to this fact is but demonizing each other ain't gonna help unless we just want to depopulate the world somewhat by causing as many wars as we possibly can lol

Yeah, the increase of population should cap around 10 billion anyway, so there should be some alternatives than massacres.

Who knows, one thing I do know is that if we had have left it sour or ended up arguing seriously, that would have just polarized his views even more.

Yeah, exactly.

They occasionally still 'patrol' around my neighbourhood too. Generally with big dogs while semi-drunk. Admirable.

The problem is that something like 40% of the women in Finland have been somehow sexually or physically abused by people they know, not strangers or foreigners. It is the second highest in the EU behind Denmark and has been happening here for a long time and likely runs hand in hand with the drinking culture.

Funnily, several of the founding members of the soldiers of Odin group have been convicted of rape.

Take away globalization from Finland and what is left?

Generally with big ducks while semi-drunk. Admirable.

Yeah, not so much when they act like that...

The problem is that something like 40% of the women in Finland have been somehow sexually or physically abused by people they know, not strangers or foreigners.

Yeah, I remember when you mentioned that when we met. The group claims that they interrupt any kind of violence no matter the race, but good thing you brought that up, as it's relevant information.

Funnily, several of the founding members of the soldiers of Odin group have been convicted of rape.

I'm not surprised. That probably tells about the questionable nature of the organisation.

Take away globalization from Finland and what is left?

Lot's of woods lakes – and agriculture that won't be profitable enough for the farmers without EU aid, lol.

Was meant to say dogs. There were no ducks. :D

Lot's of woods lakes – and agriculture that won't be profitable enough for the farmers without EU aid, lol.

Not much to buy in the supermarkets at all.

Was meant to say dogs. There were no ducks. :D

Ahh, that makes bit more sense, maybe you were trying to say dags :D

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