We have ZERO FEES, but what if you got 0.00000001 SBD/STEEM/SP When you sent tokens?

in #negative-fees5 years ago

Think about it, would it be bad or good for the long term perspective to pioneer in this idea? What if ZERO is not good enough anymore?


I want you to take some time and really think about the pros and cons of this idea, because it is a game changing or a fractional part of a revolution to go from zero to a minimum something. My own bias is that it would push people to circulate the currency (SBD) and the assets (STEEM + SMTs).

Thank you for reading, thinking deep about it and commenting below.

FUNFACT: My WITNESS is called fyrst-witness, and you can vote for it at https://steemit.com/~witnesses the witness-machine make sure that your vote is registered and your voice is heard. I hope you support it!

If you wanna talk, you can find me as always with the SteemSpeak Punks at http://steemspeak.com, hope to see you there anytime you like 24/7/365.


Little amount is good sometimes even zero causes problems . It seems as if we can never be happy ?!

Well, I think we are mostly happy. But we are competing against everyone and maintaining the #1 position on blocktivity like a boss. Would be great to throw in the cherry on the top and say - oh by the way, everytime you send tokens you get a little something for that as well.... Make it "too good to be true" but it is really true. Little amounts like... 0.025% of inflation goes to token transactions rewards for example.

Nothing is free in this world. someone is paying for it.

Agree :-)

the blockchain is paying for it, fresh coins.

Which means that existing users who choose not to participate in meaningless transaction spamming see their share of the market cap diluted, so they are still paying for it.

Existing users might also lose their ability to use the blockchain. It almost seems like there should be a minuscule fee to prevent malicious spammers from trying to crash it.

Well, we have bandwidth, but we can see that it creates some problems. I'm sure they're going to try more novel approaches in future HF's.

While you're right @hackerwhacker, we have a lot of people who think things can be free and are willing to test that by passing off the costs to others. I think @fyrstikken's idea is interesting, just one I'm not partial to. I still think it's worth looking at though, like the post shows, Think Different, if for no other reason than to challenge our perspective on things.


As other users have mentioned you cannot implement a system like this without it being a vector for volume attacks on the network. You also should not pursue volume for volume's sake. I have a few ideas but I consider them my billion dollar ideas, anyways the problem is not with technical implementations but the willingness of human beings to do things that would not increase their own existing wealth, which is why we see capital flight from France after their wealth tax and decreased investing in housing in Canada when foreign investment taxes are raised and so on. Basically if you pursue any type of system that automatically negates wealth accumulation you scare wealthy people away, and your chain would suffer because no other chains want to shoot themselves in the foot by being among the first to do so.

Somewhat ironically considering how anti-gov many crypto users are, they cannot see that some of the only big adopters of crypto simply seek to replace the services that already exist in the fiat space and be the ones to profit from scare resource accumulation, money creation, lending practices etc., they aren't actually trying that hard to solve society's problems because that would be less profitable for them. Basically the answers to our problems are all out there already, but why would anyone who is rich in the current systems want to change what's working for them.

you cannot implement a system like this without it being a vector for volume attacks on the network.

Lets assume two things:

  • the daily rewardpool for transactions was between 10 and 20 STEEM in total.
  • Steem enables entanglement (like IOTA) for certain types of transactions.

That would eliminate the volume attacks on the network, in fact it would speed up the network.
And, if 10-20 STEEM in the future became valuable enough to fight for, in our current state we most likely would crash, but with smart implementation of entanglement we could use the network to the advantage of the total user experience.

Somewhat ironically considering how anti-gov many crypto users are

Crypto users are starting to rule now, and will rule hardcore in the future. But to comment on your statement, Professional Politics has created too many countries that spend the money of the many on stuff like... finding out how the sex-life of mosquitoes evolve over time with or without cocaine involved... among other stupid things you find in the 500 page long Invoice from the "government" to the "people".

Taxes the current system is an old dinosaur that needs to be replaced with a new system that allow us to DELEGATE our hard earned assets to projects that are not... how do I put it... a scam.

Why would anyone who is rich in the current systems want to change what's working for them.

Because people die, and system changes as a new generation innovate, and that is definitive.

Not to get into a tangent but from a technical standpoint Iota doesn't have very strong legs to stand on, the project is likely at a standstill as it wonders how to convince people that the impossible is possible in that the processing and energy requirements of doing the transactions is likely much more than the devices they claim to be aiming for use in, and as things are now they won't be able to handle many transactions at all. Plus their distribution was terrible and it's likely an elaborate pump and dump with tons of buzzwords to distract and attract investors.

That aside, I do look forward to seeing how other dags or types of entanglement networks work out when tested to the limits in real-world cases.

Call it personal preference then that I do not think you should incentivize network activity as you are proposing. Look what happens when you give a refund on transactions, they already do that for, guess what, big stock exchanges. It distorts markets and volume for volume's sake is never a good thing, at least from what I've seen of when it is practiced in the real world. It just puts money in the pockets of those who can produce massive volume at scale, as they pocket the transaction bonus in a way that no normal people with access to normal amounts of computing power could.

Yes, government spends a lot of money wastefully, that is not news. But lots of services are provided in many countries, and so far I don't think anyone would argue that most people in the crypto space are seeking asset protection and return on investment. We are just seeing the new capital of cryptocurrency accumulate mostly in the hands of a new few, but I don't see them jumping at the chance to blow all their money on fixing societal ills so much as try to increase their networth.

Then we will see many fake transactions on blockchain, I think it will rose the steem price, it will be a bubble that will grow more and more. And when it will burst then it will collapse the entire network

what if there is "only" between 10-20 STEEM in the daily transaction-pool, a very small amount - but an amount. Think harder.

If we select that then we will need to add more tokens in the reward system, more tokens means more inflation and therefore a devaluation of the steem.
On the other hand, it produces spamming because you would send money from A to B, and next from B to A indefinitely in order to get more rewards.
Conclusion: I think it is not a good idea.

There currently is about 70,000 STEEM in rewards going out every day.
Lets assume the rewardpool for coin-transactions is between 10 and 20 STEEM per day. How does that sound?

Thanks for the upvote.
Now we have numbers with 3 decimal positions. This is good because it is easy to understand, and therefore there are more inclusion (kids, teenagers, grandparents, etc).

If we add more decimals, like 0.00000001, we will lose part of these users.

We solve the problem of inflation using only 10 - 20 steem, but the spamming will be present, and that means more costs for the witnesses.

That would definitely encourage more transactions. Just checked blocktivity and the record now is 2+ million transactions in a day, that's amazing.

Also gave your witness a vote, along with a resteem - cheers!

yes, we are beating everyone on transactions... just want to set the benchmark higher and higher.

Resteemed as we need some levers to guide preferences (from an economic) perspective in the way people interact. Can’t be a complete hoarding mentality that defines how we operate here. Thanks!

for sure, call in the mathmagicians :)
levers and breaks are always needed in these economic wheels.

I understand your perspective,putting an incentive to increase number of transaction might be good for the steemit ecosystem in general but we need to be weary of spammers waiting for a golden opportunity like that to abuse the system.

Usually everyone charge sone pennys or more.. Its not big ammount

that is why I want to explore the unusual. Call it bonus-points for spending or transacting steem/sbd/smt - the bonus cards do it, the credit cards do it, why cant a blockchain do it? It can :)

Yeah.. Thats the point.. But in an unusual way..😊
Yeah blockchain can also do it.. But i think its better to look all pros and cons before

I'm not good for this! let me resteem and look what follow this postncomment if what other steemians can do! 😁

honest comment, I like that.

thank you sir! 😊 that's the truth.!

I'm afraid it would be gamed, once a system to set up accounts in bulk is puzzled out.

well, it would be designed in a clever way to avoid gaming, and the reward should be so low that it would not be anything significant, just a small something above zero.

So it would be no more than a "feel good" amount, not worth setting up a botnet for....

I think it would be nice to get something extra for just sending. I don't think it's enough to significantly induce people to increase transfers to others. It definitely does fall under thinking differently.

if we want to keep innovating, we have to think up and utilize new ideas. Game theory and all that :)
With this in place it truly will be the blockchain that rewards you for every action you do on the blockchain... maybe in combination with something else as well.

Free services are no that good as paid service sometime ...little fees there no problem....just now i voted you as witness ..

hey bro plzzzzz help i sent two 0.6 sbd and 0.65 sbd amounts to @speedvoter which posts already upvote by @speedvoter plz sir refund it is done mistakenly

This comment has received a 2.35 % upvote from @speedvoter thanks to: @karanchahal.

Always should see things from another view!

but what if you got 0.00000001 SBD/STEEM/SP When you sent tokens?

If you would ping a 0.001 transaction back and forth between accounts you would eventually make 1 sbd/steem/sp, then 2, then 4..

... and an instant 60 reputation for thyself with increased earnings! Is this Bitconnect?? Ha ha!

IDK, fristikken is trying to find an angle on making a buck from spending a buck. .

wait, nah.. o. ummmm... yeah

It must be the Norwegian conservative within him! The Nordic Høyre-hunter!!


indeed i think if steemit was a limited like btc that would have been the case but all the same we need inflation to coup up with the steem blockchain you have my vote

I'm still a little new to the Steemit community, and was just wondering if you could explain some more what you mean. How do the tokens work exactly and the witness votes? Thanks!

Thanks for the info! I'm having a little trouble opening the link right now, but I will try again later.

make sure you do.

Great analysis..i think SBD rate are up in this month.
thank you for share your post @fyrstikken

That would empower more exchanges. Simply checked blocktivity and the record now is 2+ million exchanges in a day, that is astonishing.

Additionally gave your witness a vote, alongside a resteem

I alwys see your post .Vote and resteemit done ..Dear..

Little sum is great now and then even zero causes issues

great post thanks for sharing this information upvoted and resteemed

dont copy/paste other peoples comment. I already replied to that statement above.

sorry mistake i don't see it

Well even at this, we enjoy at the expense of the blockchain so it's covered

Your post is always good... thanks for sharing the post

That's a lot of zeros, I suppose 0.001 is too high a fee?

0.001 is just a design feature

Have a monthly pool for transactions you want to encourage. I would think buying steem/sbd from outside, transactions between users keeping steem in house, reward/prize distributions, and powering up would be encouraged. Give each kind of transaction some weighting/ranking value. At the end of the month each users gets: (weighted value of steem spent by user)*((this month's pool)/total weight value of steem spent))

This kind if scheme or similar would reduce the incentive to game the system while encouraging moving your steem around.

Your blog for steemian community is always wonderful and thanks for update good article.

Well..Let's to the moon

Voted for witness

Honesty, it would be a dream come true if Safaricom paid me for every single M-PESA transaction that i send out. .its a great thought!
I like this!

I will create a new steemit account and play the GoT(game of transactions) ..If needed I might automatize the process!

I find it interesting the idea but what would be the cap if there were any? Not sure I am entirely for this, I would have to see more details on how this would be implemented. It would definitely be a first for the blockchain.

Off topic but I really miss steemspeak.

Would we end up with people trying to rort the system by sending heaps of 0.001 transactions to another of their own accounts? Or a system where two users would pair up and automatically send 0.001sbd back and forth all day?

I always thought of zero fees as a good encouragement for lots of transfers.

I have voted for your witness program and can't wait to speak to one of my Steemit mentor at http://steemspeak.com. thanks so much for helping me personally on Steemit. Love ya

Voted for your witness.

Worth thinking about, but wouldn't it be subject to abuse ? Without further detailing I can't help but think if I send from one of my accounts and back again and so on and so forth, automated through some sort of bot on either side ...I know it's just a tiny number, but even tiny numbers add up in large amounts.

I like the different thinking though.

It seems to me that it is only possible to send such small shares of Sbd when the price is about $ 100. Then 0.001 sbd will be the dollar, and 0.0001 - 10 cents.

But until then such dust does not make much sense.

Good think ! 😁

Glad that someone thought about it because that's the question everyone get in mind specially in my head when every one says free transaction but still there is 0.001 fees so how it is completely free but the main idea of it would be that to promote it on a level high to the masses for massive adoption and that even 0.001 fees would become high to run the systems :)

STEEM does not have any FEES. Exchanges have FEES which they CHARGE their CUSTOMERS. With a small transaction REWARD maybe even the exchanges would remove their fee for SBD & STEEM because they would make more money with STEEM that way.

You have my support!

Interesting thinking @Fyrstikken
More circulation on the blockchain will make it go higher?
And more coins will be mined?
Win win?

Please vote and resteem my post. and if you can please transfer a little SBD for me because I really need money.

Always your posts are very impressive
so nice and Good

if it gets adds up they might make it 1 sbd in total for sure hahah

The Steem dollar is just an IOU a promise – if and when you decide to cash out of your Steem dollars, you will get however many Steem it takes to get to that value in USD. There’s also an interest acquired on any Steem dollars left in your account (currently 10% a year). This is done in order to incentiivize people to leave their Steem dollars in their account.

They certainly don't make us pay for the receipt when we buy beer and cigarettes. That tiny 0.00000001 could come with a bit of information and act as a receipt on the blockchain. Then, when these places try to rip us off, we can show them our fancy new receipt and say, "Look. You owe me money, asshole."

Great post Nothing is free in this world. someone is paying for it dear.

Well I do not think enough to boost people to increase transfers to others.

Hello @fyrstikken.........

It may interest you to support the @minnowminer initiative in promoting the JOULESTEEM circuit posts of @lightingmacsteem. We need a STEEM POWER delegation that will surely bring about much larger number of audiences as well as a very good investment for your SPs.

The offgrid circuit in harnessing atmospheric non-wind non-solar energy has come a long way starting from post #51; hence the @minnowminer program was started to give everyone the chance to learn and earn at the same time.

Thank you.

I think the difference between zero and something minuscule is really big psychologically. If the system is working well without fees, why would we want to add them? Isn't the fact that there are not fees the thinking differently part compared to the rest of the field like bitcoin with its huge fees?

lol, I am not talking about adding fees, I am talking about adding a small REWARD when you transact money using the STEEM blockchain.

Oh, that's quite different. Very open to abuse, isn't it?

wow thats like a great post sir..
i like this post..
relly verry good post..

Really nothing is free in this world.....Thanks your important post

you are right ...Usually everyone charge sone pennys.

wonderful ideas, you rock @fyrstikken.

Why would you want to encourage more transactions? Credit cards give you money because they make money on each transaction and are sharing some of it with you. I don't see why increasing transaction volumes would benefit steem in any way. Plus it seems like it would be easy to game. Just set up a bot that transfers money back and forth between accounts. Of course if we really wanted to I'm sure we could come up with a solution to the system being gamed but then we come back to my original question. What is the purpose? To increase circulation? I don't think circulation for circulation's sake is a positive or a negative.

Can give some people to learn. Zero or not. I like your post @fyrstikken. I follow you

Im glad you liked that idea of negative fees were you get paid to make transactions, the money coming from the same place reward pool or witness pays come from, from the blockchain!

Forget the lightening network, we will have real negative fees, our system actually works

I heard you even had a plan to do a bitcoin wallet type thing whre you could just let people on steemit hold BTC and it would let them use their owner key as the key for that bitcoin wallet? See we would be able to seriously compete with the lightening network!

I think in the future new creation of STEEM should stop and the reward pool should only be filled with transfer fees... I don't know when though, maybe when we reach 4 or 5 trillion total supply of STEEM, that way you have high enough velocity of STEEM, so you can start charging transfer fees and stop creating new STEEM, and fill the reward pool with only transfer fees...


Here's a free upvote and resteem courtesy of #killerbot1qivbn.jpg

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