→ America's Border Horror Stories
This is, without a doubt, the sickest think I have read in some time.
Link: America’s inhumane child separation policy & our border concentration camps
Kottke:
No use sugar-coating it: the federal government of the United States of America now has a policy of taking children away from their families when they attempt to enter the US to request political asylum from violence & hardship in their native countries. These children and their parents are placed into concentration camps.
Are we ok with this? Regardless of how you feel about immigration, pro or against, are you ok with kids being ripped away from their families and locked up like common criminals? Kottke's title calls it exactly: This is inhumane. Is this what America has become under Trump—aka, Comrade Drumpf?
I have no words. Smh...
Link Blog
Back when I had my own website, I used to post a few random links everyday or every few days, in the style of http://kottke.org or http://daringfireball.net. Readers seemed to enjoy seeing them.
I will put an arrow (→) at the beginning of the title to show you guys it is a link post and that you can skip it if such things don't interest you.
 | David LaSpina is an American photographer lost in Japan, trying to capture the beauty of this country one photo at a time. More? |
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Yes it seems that’s what that country has become and many do not really care. They are just waiting to become great again
What's the alternative?
The alternative to what?
I don't remember if I was asking what the alternative was to becoming great again or what the alternative was to separating kids from their parents when you arrest the parents.
And as I wrote here, he of course did a diversion job with his "Space Force".
https://steemit.com/news/@lennstar/this-wall-will-be-huge
Here are some more details on the children:
https://www.propublica.org/article/children-separated-from-parents-border-patrol-cbp-trump-immigration-policy?utm_campaign=sprout&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=1529351580
Thanks for the links. Will instapaper the article and read it while at work.
This is inhuman. What's Happening at the Border Is Torture:
Was it torture when Obama did the same?
If he did, it was. I'm not defending Obama. He even supported some of the policy that lets Trump and Sessions do this. But Trump decided to enforce it now, when he could have done something else. Trump, Session , lots of republicans justified the separation of children from parents. This is low, cruel, inhumane abuse of children and weak people that need help. It doesn't mean we'll let them in illegally, but send them back treating them with respect and compassion. BTW, lots are coming for asylum and this is not illegal entry.
"But Trump decided to enforce it now, when he could have done something else. "
So the problem is enforcing the law, not the law?
Can you see where it is beyond stupid for members of congress to cry foul about the laws they created being enforced?
It's illegal entry if you jump the border, if you really want asylum then you go directly to the port of entry.
In between catching them jumping the border and sending them back, what is your solution? Should the kids be separated or be in jail with the adults?\
Are you aware that the kids are at those facilities generally for 3 days or less and never for more than 5?
Have you ever asked yourself why tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors are coming here for asylum?
It's because Obama made a rule saying that unaccompanied minors get asylum, causing a flood of people to send their kids here alone. The solution is to change that rule.
There are so many factors and history that cause this situation that it's hard to cover all points in answer. And you raise good points,.
The law is perverse, and the legislators that passed it are as accountable of this situation (democrats and republicans the same.. it does not have any logic, at the end, these people make laws that are very bad for USA and american society). IMO, this is a nazi-style policy, that makes USA look very bad and do a terrible thing. One case is separating children from parents involved in violent crimes or that put children in some real danger, but the families coming through the border come together and separation only make things worst. And I know that the separation happens for 'legal' people as well, and in this is also bad in lots of cases putting children at risk (but lets leave this point for another thread)
The asylum seekers can't really get to the port of entry from the reports and interviews I've seen, and even when they do, they face many issues. There is some reason for them to try to get in illegally. The system is actually perverse, not giving real alternatives for people in need.
But again, Trump had the option and he went for the worst.
The illegal immigration problem is very tough. Things have been done so badly for decades. And the US, unfortunately, is very accountable for its horrendous foreign policy and interventionism in Latin America, that broke so many countries, creating bad living conditions and forcing people flee to survive (not all fault of USA of course, but accountability is very high).
Parents will send their kids alone only if they are desperate (of course, there are sick people everywhere that want to get rid or whatever). But the point is that if living conditions were reasonable, a lot more people would stay. In some countries, kids as young as 9-10 get recruited by the gangs and drug lords as soldiers. Parents will do almost anything to save them. Even risking their kids to get raped on the long way to the US border, just hoping for a better future. And here we catch them and put them in a cage, managed by a private company that makes money by having prisoners (another huge stupidity, but lets leave the private jail business for another thread..).
It'll be very hard to come up with a solution, but nothing inhuman and violent will achieve something positive. Part of the solution is helping other countries to develop real democracies and improve their economies, making up for the damage done. Hint: dropping bombs, building more military basis there, giving away free taxpayer money that will be used by the local oligarchy, and the like , won't help. People will prefer to stay if living conditions were decent, rather than getting illegally into another country. Most immigrants rather stay in their land with families and friends, this is probably true everywhere. There is no perfect solution, but if we had policies that are respectful to all people, it would be much better. Then we have millions of undocumented people in the country, some of them spending most of their lives here. Most are very hard working that contributing to the economy, producing more than they take. They should be given an option to stay, and keep contributing (it's an opportunity, in lots of countries the birth rates are lower and they won't be able to support their social security systems). Did you ever talk to somebody that crossed the border illegally and told you what they had to endure? These people are very strong, and can contribute a lot. Of course, it can't be a free lunch for all, but this is the hard part (still probably simpler to fix, cheaper and more productive than so many other things )_
Nazis didn't have anyone trying to run INTO Germany. And we don't bomb Mexico. My best friend was at one time an illegal alien but he is a citizen now. So your opinion that America should take everyone who comes? And when people illegally cross the border should they be held accountable or not?
No, can't let people enter illegally. They should be held accountable, but it doesn't mean that we have to separate them from their children or detain them for indefinite time.
They are not detained indefinitely, they also complain when people are held together, then they say Trump is keeping kids in adult jails. Usually they try to place kids with relatives in the US or send them home in 3 days.
I missed to make a comment ... some years back, it was published that thanks to some USA agency backed operation (I don't recall if it was CIA?) , thousands of firearms ended up in Mexico's drug cartels.
We aren't bombing Mexico but many other bad things get done to them.
Once again, to fix the illegal immigration problem we've to help fixing the root cause.
It was Obama's AG who lost a bunch of guns that ended up in mexico but of course that is irrelevant, the Mexican drug cartels don't need to get guns from the US, they can get them from anywhere, they like the best the ones we give to their military to fight them with, those are the best. Ending the war on drugs would go a long way to reducing illegal immigration but so would ending the policy of granting asylum to any unaccompanied minor or woman who claims she was abused. Those polices cause the unaccompanied minors to come.
btw, for some of info , take a look at these videos if not done yet :
https://steemit.com/trump/@a12345/inhumane-treatment-of-children-and-families-by-trump-administration-but-the-legal-framework-was-built-by-previous-presidents
Of course the false premise is that this is somehow new or different from what came before. A lot of the problem is that Obama created a policy where any child who came alone got amnesty, so they started sending their kids by themselves. Of the 12,000 in temporary custody right now 10,000 were kids who showed up by themselves. We take them in and feed clothe and house them and give them medical care. What are we doing wrong?
This is not a left or right issue. If this started under Obama, then he is equally to blame. This finger pointing at meant to distract us and get us fighting amongst ourselves. I do not like either political party in Washington and consider them both completely corrupt, both likely controlled (or highly influenced) by the same old boy network, both basically the same. I mention Drumpf in the post because this is coming out under his watch, but I would be equally appalled if this news were coming out under a Democrat. I don't care which side is in office: they are both corrupt.
I don't know what the solution is, nor do I claim to. All I know is separating kids from their parents is not right, regardless of whether the parents are breaking the law or not.
Indeed, this manufactured crisis is mostly to distract us from the IG testifying in congress. It funny because I was trying to sound the alarm during the Obama administration. Basically the Obama policy was a gift to the private prison industry, he created policies in order to create a large population of detainees for private detention centers. Those kids are cash cows, some of them are worth $1000 a day. That's how much the government pays to house some of them.
I know what the solution is, end the Obama policy that said that all unaccompanied minors get amnesty and then they will stop sending 10,000 unaccompanied minors.
The solution is to enforce the laws. If you don't like the laws then the solution is to change them but the solution is never to not enforce the laws.
It's not right but it is also not out fault, the blame for the separations is the criminals who put their kids in that situation. When a rapist gets busted nobody complains that his kids are separated from him when he goes to jail. Don't do the crime if you don't want to be separated from your kids.
2/3 of the people in American prisons have kids, and all of them are separated from their kids, that's what happens when you commit a crime.
I give you a hint: Human children are not animals to put in a zoo. And even there those conditions would violate animal protection laws.
btw:
source: Listen to Children Who’ve Just Been Separated From Their Parents at the Border
Anyway, it doesn't matter under which president ist started. If it started under Obama, then it has gone on for a whole fucking year in which Trump did nothing to stop it. And since he is so interested in the border he did now about it and didn't give a shit about those children.
It's not a zoo until reporters and politicians insist on going there to stare at the kids and take selfies. Anyhow you didn't say what exactly was wrong with the conditions, you just inaccurately characterized them as zoos.
So let me get this right, there are laws criminalizing illegal border crossing but you think the president should not enforce them?
Where can you go and be arrested with your kids and not be separated from them when they put you in jail?
You are a good student of Trump. Nitpicking instead of defending what you do with arguments and using the point that is ritizised as a reason.
So let me ask you again:
Do you think it is morally okay to put children into cages that are identical to those in zoos with conditions that would be illegal for "normal" prisoners (at least in civilized countries, I don't know about the US) for the reasons that someone else did something that should not be illegal?
I am still waiting on you to tell me exactly what conditions would be illegal, these children, many of whom were set alone atop trains by the people who are supposed to care about them, are being kept in more than adequate and humane conditions. What's the illegal part?
I give you a little hint:
Every time Trump goes: But Obama!... he is either
A) lying or
B) trying to divert attention from his doings
But the point is not what happened in history. That may be interesting for historians and you may learn for it.
But problems today are far more important. And if they are started by someone else in the back, that is interesting, but not of interest. Of interest is who did not solve the problems today.
The Afghan war was started by Bush. Bad.
It was continued by Obama. Bad.
It is still continued by Trump. Bad.
But there is only one of those that can end this war, and that one is the person we should look at, right? If I say "Trump, why you don't stop that war", and he says "But Obama!", then he is trying to divert the attention away from the fact that he could have been doing somethign and didn't.
btw. Just a few weeks ago I learned about the name of this tactic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Whataboutism
Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.
The term "whataboutery" has been used in Britain and Ireland since the period of the Troubles (conflict) in Northern Ireland. Lexicographers date the first appearance of the variant whataboutism to the 1990s or 1970s, while other historians state that during the Cold War, Western officials referred to the Soviet propaganda strategy by that term.
without directly refuting or disproving their argument, that part is important
It is.
So if I say that are cages like in a zoo, and you are saying "What happens with your kids when you are arrested" then you
A) neither disprove my point
B) nor defending your position that this is okay.
Actually I said that modern zoos don't have cages and that neither are these temporary holding facilities cages, despite the fact they have chain-link fencing in some locations.
If it looks like a cage, is build like a cage and is used to cage people in, then it is a cage.
I don't know why so many people cry foul at that word.
If I drop an big explosive something on you, it is a bomb, even if the military likes to call it propelled shell, autonomous neutralization device or whatever.
That's funny, you are not using the word "cage" with a negative connotation?
The reason that word has become important is because we have the media pushing a totally false narrative that the president said that immigrants are "animals", that is why the word "cage" is important. I have chain-link fence in my backyard, is it a cage?
C) The media is using pictures from the Obama admin to try to denigrate Trump and to divert attention from more important things.
It doesn't matter if the pictures are from the cages today or from the same cages 2 years ago.
Not that I have seen any border detention official saying that that these pictures are old.
Where would you see that? Would the MSM play such a video if there was one?
It matters because you didn't give a shit two years ago but you claim you do now.