RE: Challenging Feminism. What's your opinion?
Hi! I definitely agree that there are some problems with feminism, particularly recently. I think people are getting too caught up over things like terminology, I've even got yelled at online for using the terms 'he' and 'she'/ 'man' and 'woman'... apparently I should have been using 'assigned male at birth' etc, which frankly, I think is absolutely ridiculous.
However - I do not think this means that we shouldn't call ourselves feminists, even if it's uncomfortable to be associated with the bad kinds. After all, feminism is about EQUAL rights, and that comes with tackling issues within both genders. I think the only way to change feminism is from within - by calling ourselves feminists and then advocating the good type of feminism, we can create a better movement.
Feminism has nothing to do with equality or choice. That's a sales pitch. Who doesn't want fair treatment for everyone and choice? It's a sales pitch and a mechanism of coercion, that's why if you refuse to call yourself a feminist so many of them will say that means you must be into abuse or whatever is opposite of what feminism claims to be about that day.
But if it's a sales pitch, what are they trying to sell?
Also, although it is obviously good that you think everyone wants equality for everyone, that's sadly not reality. For example, my grandfather still won't read any book that's written by a woman, and in my first job I was told by the guy who hired me that girls sell more coffee and that it was good if wore a short tight skirt. I've also been yelled at in the street, including rape threats from strangers who then chased me on their bikes. I was just out for an evening run.
I don't think these people DO truly want equality, and that's the problem. It's also the problem with the kinds of women who expect men to pay for their dates 100% of the time. But anyway, this is why we still need feminism. We just need to make sure it stands for actual equality rather than petty shit.
A sales pitch is not necessary when you have a real product. An Ideology doesn't have to be about what it says it is or do what it says it does, not because someone identifies with some ideology it means they understand it either.
Your grandfather may simply not think a woman has been as involved in the world (in the way he has) to produce anything to his interest, do you really think he wants to hurt women? The dude who hired you is maybe thinking of the kids he's got to feed and how girls bring more sales in, it doesn't mean he likes that. You decide to think that he supports it just because he recognizes it, do you think he enjoys recognizing that women showing skin tends to bring money in? For all you know in his mind he was trying to give you advice on how to make more money...
I'm not telling you to ignore the injustices, I'm telling you feminism is not going to help you recognize them because it looks at men in a negative light. The core of feminism believes that men keep women down to stay on top and this is simply not true, it causes resentment which makes difficult to truly listen to men and what they experience.
How do you achieve equality by focusing on women?
Does feminism recognize women have any advantage over men?
When I asked who doesn't doesn't want justice I meant that it's an easy idea to get behind.
You say that the core of feminism is the belief that men keep women down in order to stay on top.
Now, while I don't think this actually is the core of feminism (I think it has a lot more to do with breaking societal conventions which are ingrained in society rather than individual people), I do think that some men DO want to keep women down. And it only takes some men for it to be a problem. Except the other problem is the good men often don't believe us when we say it's happening, because to them it's just bizarre and not something they'd do.
For example, I ask you what it could have been for the men who chased me on their bikes telling me I was going to get raped, other than a power trip? To push me own and keep themselves on top? What else is it to my grandfather, who knows I want to be an author, who knows that I've taken whole modules on contemporary women's writing (modern books which have won big prizes), other than to keep me down when he says he'll never read a book written by a woman? He even said that if he picked one up that looked good, he'd put it back if he saw it was written by a woman.
I've been held in the middle of a club whilst I was trying to get away by a guy insisting that I dance with him and that 'I don't have a boyfriend tonight', and even when I had both hands trying to push him away he kept holding on. What is this, if not trying to make sure he is in control? He's quite literally keeping the woman down to remain on top.
And I know these things are only part of feminism. There are many many many parts of feminism, including sections which speak to men about their issues to try and raise them up in the areas they are down. However, I do think that it's important for the good men to acknowledge the bad ones. My boyfriend was shocked when I told him I'd been followed and pestered by a man all through London when I refused to give him my phone number. Shocked when I've told him men touch me in clubs without permission (and without even saying hello, even meeting my eye). He's shocked because he'd never do this stuff, ever. But he believes me, because he trusts me, and I this is actually is a large part of feminism.
How does feminism know the areas that affect men when every time I and others try discussing this we are accused of playing victims and try to steal the spotlight, divert conversation, defend our privilege and control the narrative by people identifying as feminists?
Does feminism believe women have any advantage over men? If so what?
I'm not ignoring some men can lose their minds, simply in my experience it has nothing to do with hurting women because of their sex or keep them from becoming better, achieving their dreams, etc.
You don't have to lay out the bad experiences you've had with men, I know, trust me I know. And knowing that I can assure you that women don't have it worse, which is at the core of feminism even if it's hard to see. There is no wave of feminism that doesn't believe women suffer more than men, that men keep women down to stay on top.
Feminism can say all day long that it helps men, but if men are complaining that feminism is hurting them why aren't you listening? How come you want us to listen to your experience like your boyfriend and believe you, but you can't believe our experiences?
Let's see how much closer feminism has brought you to men, please let us know when you have a chance whether you believe men are more vulnerable than women to anything that is not toxic masculinity, please let us know whether you believe there's any way at all in which women benefit from this system more than men.
For one, I'd love to know why you think that women are not worse off than men. I know you have problems too but even from a biological standpoint women are worse off. And biology counts.
Things men are more vulnerable to? I'm not sure exactly what you class as toxic masculinity, and why you believe that doesn't count, but here are a few things. Men are less likely to take care of both their health and mental health, and are more likely to commit suicide. They are less likely to report if they have been raped or if they're the victim of domestic abuse, and less likely to be taken seriously if they do report it. They're more likely to die at work, and more likely to be injured. In most countries they aren't given as much paternity leave as woman are given maternity leave, meaning that the choice of who the primary caregiver is is made for them. (This can also be seen the other way as a downside for women, which it is, but my point here is that men are still denied that vital bonding time with their baby.) They have less choice in clothes shops, pretty much always. In the case of divorce and the custody of children, the court is often biased towards the mother, whether or not she is the better parent.
Is that enough? I do pay attention, and I do listen to men. Now to see if you listen to women - what problems do you think we have?
I don't think women are not worse, I know it because I've been able to get both treatments, I am not making this up and I know of plenty others like myself who only found out because of their trans experience.
These things you (not feminism) mention men are more vulnerable to, have you found out about them in a feminist forum? Why do you think men are more vulnerable to things like suicide? Have you ever seen a feminist talk about the reasons why men don't get as much consideration as parents other than the oppression of patriarchy trying to force women into motherhood?
Can you reference a single piece of writing or video in which feminists are discussing male issues outside of the way males affect females? I've never seen a feminist discuss male issues where they didn't at least imply men are causing their own issues and if women ever contribute it happens as a result of patriarchy which is there to benefit men anyways...
Nobody is denying women have issues, what many are denying is that they have the most issues and that men are causing them, which is what feminism is about.
Whaaaa
I found out about all those things through feminism. Feminist posts and videos on Facebook, mainly. The reason I think that about suicide is because of feminism. And the parenting thing - of course it's spoken about outside of what it means for the mother! I think you're thinking of feminism as this thing that is external to us, but it isn't. What I just said is feminism. It's my feminism, and many other people's feminism. To say it's not is not only to undermine me, but is plainly wrong. Feminism is nothing more or less than the belief the men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. The ways in which different people interpret this is out of our control, and so yes, some people who call themselves feminists, you might not agree with. But that doesn't mean that feminism itself is bad. That's sort of the equivalent to saying Islam itself is bad, because you don't agree with the actions and beliefs of terrorists who call themselves Muslim.
Ah, you know. That is so true. I was told the other day that I was cisgender - I mean what the actual fuck? Why not just call me a dude/man/bloke/guy.
Yeah bud! I feel that so much! I've had that thrown at me as an insult. I think what these technical sounding terms also do is take away from what we are. I identity as a woman, as I'm sure you identity as a man. I have absolutely no trouble at all with trans folk, but the ones who take it this far really get my back up.
I know dudes/men/blokes/guys who are not cisgender. Using accurate terminology to describe people has nothing to do with feminism, but seems to have been conflated lately.
But they are still dudes/men/blokes/guys regardless of their sexuality. I want to be classed as a guy. Not cisgender. It further seperates us. If you called me a man then I would have far more in common with a homosexual man than if you called us by our sexual orientations
I also do advocate for women. Just so you know. 95% of my good friends are women and they love men! You're right. Change starts from within :)
Yeah, definitely. I got that impression. I think that personally it's a dangerous game to start moving away from feminism because of extremists, that's all. In a way, I feel like that's letting them win.
Okay, so you've definitely earned a new follower then. Nice to see that you're in the UK too :)
Thanks! I've followed you too, I liked this post. Maybe I'll do a response one!
Please do. That'll be lovely. I'll resteem it too when I see it.