RE: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Let's all step back and figure out what can be done to stop LOSING STEEM USERS
Ever notice how no one makes a post about an unfair upvote?
OMG I just got an upvote from (nameabigwhale).. and my content wasn't even that good.
We have to have downvotes and because we are playing this game without a unified vision or even goals... Everyone is acting on their own views of what is good and bad for the platform. In addition some people are just wildly unreasonable.
If you want to accept upvotes you have to take the downvotes and yes we are surrounded by humans who all have a different vision and different ideas on what is good and bad and in some cases (rare) even bad intentions.
Making posts about how you are a hero for downvoting or a victim from getting a downvote is just lame.
Accept the good the bad and the ugly and if you feel you are being treated unfairly, try to find someone to offset the problem.
Does Patreon require the ability for users to remove someone's funding when you dislike them? No, you vote with your dollars by funding who you like and that is the extent to your power. Downvotes are in no way a requirement for the system, that is a religious stance some are taking here. It is foolishness because #NewSteem is less populated, less valuable and has more disgruntled people ditching it than old Steem because the bot votes didn't go away, they just switched to the downvote control tool.
Upvotes are a way of supporting financially those that you believe are worthy of it and it is proportional to your investment, that is as far as it needs to go. No, we do not need to control how others vote, including self-votes. Why? Because your votes are personal decisions that do have an impact on the overall value of the network, but only proportional to your risk. So, people acting foolish with their votes is fine because the damage is limited to the amount of money they have sunk into the network.
Having downvote control is similar to a neighborhood organization that starts giving home owners rules. True freedom loving people despise this sort of domination over people, forcing people to do with their own property what the organization wants and not what the owner wants. That's not decentralized freedom, that's more tyrannical governance.
Yep, you are exactly right. The downvote button is a weapon for negatively much more than it is tool for accurately valuing content.
The downvote needs to go, or at least go to a handful of (paid) moderators.
Clearly Patreon and Steem operate differently.
On Steem you make a post and the audience (community) reacts for 7 days. They can upvote and downvote and at the end of the week, you get to keep the balance. That's all there is to it. If you don't like how it works that's fine. I fully acknowledge it is never going to be for everyone.
I disagree, I believe Steem is very similar in its overall purpose to Patreon. I have always thought that a mature Steem would not be as much a replacement for Reddit as it would be a replacement of Patreon.
Think what you want, but this open, universal upvote/downvote system has been recognized by Steemit Inc. to be a problem. It will either be changed or Steem will experience a slow death. Its a terrible idea to give people online that are anonymous such influential power simply for being well off. The solution is the removal of PoB for STEEM and to make it exclusively about RCs. At this point, PoB needs to be an SMT thing alone.
Are you really saying that you would like to do away with voting which carries a financial reward? Or have I got that wrong?
I don't understand why you think that removing a concept like proof of brain would make any difference ?
Steem-power-delegation is vastly superior to pa.treon.
Voting is basically worthless for the majority of steemians (small fish).
I'm not telling you an opinion. I am telling you how it is designed.
I get that some of the downvotes are mean spirited, I get that some of them are dumb. I get that they make some sad and mad.
I don't think you get how Steem works.
You can make a pretty picture about how you wish it works, but there are some pieces you just aren't understanding.
I know perfectly how Steem works. You really think its text storage is all that valuable? No one cares, for some, its an inconvenience.
Its the PoB system that makes it interesting. Still, Steemit Inc. in a rather recent post commented that it is unfair for a PoB system to be universal for all topics and communities. PoB how it works today does not work well at all.
PoB has potential, but its designed wrong right now. Free downvotes also tilts the atmosphere to a negative energy rather than a positive energy.
Also, I have explained to you why your argument for downvotes makes no sense. Your idea is the same idea made by neighborhood associations that try to control people and not let them do what they want with their own property. Its socialism essentially, wherein you never truly own your own property because others get to tell you what you must do with it.
The same principles are applied to downvotes. The only reason you want downvotes is to be able to hurt someone that does with their own STEEM what you dislike. But they really can't hurt the network, because they can only do as much harm to the network as they add to the network market cap.
Allow me to explain in more detail. Imagine someone buys 1 million STEEM and powers it up. All this person wants to do is upvote their own posts. Are they hurting the network? Nope, in fact, they are a net positive.
This person locked up a lot of STEEM, increasing the value of STEEM by reducing its circulating supply. This person cannot be hurting the network because they can only take the percentage of the reward pool equal to the value they add by staking. Every STEEM staked (powered up) increases the value of the circulating supply, which is why the staked STEEM receives inflation as a reward.
Now, you argue that they do hurt it by not upvoting high quality content. But they have no obligation to do that, and they are not really hurting the network by upvoting whatever they prefer to upvote because they are actually already a net positive by staking.
This idea that they MUST upvote content based on merit is a coercive, tyrannical position that is completely in opposition to the liberty and right of free action promised by decentralized systems.
So again, what is the downvote for? It is so that you have the power to force others to do what you want. Because every staked individual is a net positive, the downvote button is not essential. It does not matter how many times people try to repeat that it is essential, as a matter of fact, it is not.
'Proof of brain' is meant to require brain, not wallet. That alone doesn't justify control, but it does demonstrate how proof of brain and thus the rest of the network are negatively impacted by upvoting garbage. I made a post on this kind of topic here, recently.
This topic really seem to "touch you" @blake.letras :)
I think he makes a great point here. The downvote has been rationalized until its supporters are blue in the face but the reality is simply that it is far too negative to work as intended. The user metrics basically speak for themselves. Very few want to endure the negativity even if there is money involved.
Remove downvotes, user activity will sky rocket, more people will come, the price of steem will go up, and steemit,inc will earn more ad revenue.
Dear @planter
Thank you for dropping by and sharing your view on that particular issue.
I've visited your profile just to learn,that you never posted anything. And yet you have 10k SP. It's quite confusing :) Are you fully into curating only?
Yours
Piotr
Post about being downvoted, gets $20+ for post. I should do that more often. But, knowing my luck, I probably will only get like $5-7 for it. lol
lol, I hear ya.
If someone said my post was shit and downvoted it, I'd take it with a pinch of salt even if I didn't agree to it. If someone downvotes me because they say I shouldn't let my VP site at 100%, that's another matter.
What the hell does my voting power have to do with anyone on Steemit? What gives them the right to tell me what to do with it? Even my mum can't tell me what to do and she doesn't punish me if I don't listen to her.
I personally think it is a really ridiculous reason to downvote, but I happen to think several of our whales are completely random and have difficulty controlling their feelings.
Keep in mind these are highly intelligent but likely socially challenged people.
In any case we do have to accept unreasonable upvote and downvotes.
Very true. Very true.
Once again thank you for sharing your view with us.
Piotr
Dear @crypto.piotr, thanks for your great work.
It is not easy to find people with a firm opinion and position in the face of behaviors such as these, in addition to having the courage to denounce and expose them without fear of being disqualified and attacked by whales who want to forcefully impose their point of view.
I have read comments that say that the reasons behind the negative votes is the health of the ecosystem and the good functioning of the palataforma. Honestly, this discussion demonstrates everything that is contrary and what it says is that there are people with unconsiderable voting power who abuse that great power, and vote with vague and meaningless criteria publications that simply do not fit their way of thinking or their particular taste . If you don't like something, keep going.
A discussion like this and an attitude of "gunman" not only frightens and increases new users, but also the older ones who find it difficult to attract traffic to their publications.
Great gesture friend, congratulations.
Thank you for your supportive comment @fucho80
And enjoy your weekend ahead :) Yours, Piotr
Dear Piotr, lets cut the bullshit and now,
you are nothing but a spammer and a scammer,
a spammer due to your transfer memos, and a scammer due to you being in charge of "project hope", a project that is nothing but a circlejerk run by 5 venezuelans, and to which you shamelessly claim a "100 %ROI".
I suggest you cut the bullshit and the whining, and start working for the real improvement of the platform.
Regards,
Jaguar Force
Look Jaguar.
You have no idea how project.hope works.
You think you are an expert and you are actually a rude vulgar.
You always make empty accusations without finding out thoroughly.
I have seen you accuse plagiarism of plastic artists without being true. You do some supposed "investigations" to accuse someone and look good before "GOD." I don't envy your work.
I beg you to stay away from us. In Steemit there are quite a few cases of improper behavior with which you can get distracted.
Jaguar.force itself is a true "circlejerk". The guilty parties are you. We use our true personal accounts to work. We do not hide in other accounts as "Crow" (Cuervo).
Piotr is not a scammer. Find someone who has felt cheated by him. Go, find someone who accuses him of scam and then you and I will talk.
Everybody that is anyone in this platform knows the quality and accuracy of our work.
So frankly speaking, I coulnd't give a fuck less about what you think.
Have a great day.
Just drop it @juanmolina. It's pointless.
You've got DRAMA. You are going to be a Whale!
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.Dear @jaguar.force, @juanmolina
I'm sorry to hear that you consider our efforts nothing but "circle-jerking". You surely have a right to have your own opinion - I still believe that what we're doing is good for STEEM and I enjoy seeing our community around @project.hope to grow slowly.
So again, I respect your opinion - however I would like to point of that my current publication is about something else: potential downvote abouse.
Could you please let me know, if you really do not see my points valid? That being downvoted for 'not downvoting others' isn't mindset worth supporting?
Yours, Piotr
@jaguar.force I would like Steem to become more successful and gain wider adoption.
For that to occur people need to be able to accumulate and distribute Steem.
The oligarchy here which promotes flags as a virtue, is literally driving users and potential users away.
This comment of yours, it leads me to suspect that you are part of that oligarchy which is actively working against the success of the platform and Steem.
I doubt that anyone could be so divorced from reality that they actually believe that this pathetic behavior helping to attract users lol
you accusations against @crypto.piotr are so pathetic they could have come from @berniesanders or @themarkymark
@whatsup, I agree here with the first two sentences. I don't agree with the last because you don't give a gun to a kid who has never used one and tell him to go play nicely with his friends. You definitely shouldn't give it to a person who has ill-intent. Where is the vetting process? Not everyone needs the power to DV.
My opinion.
Well that's a funny opinion. Who is going to Vett? Based on What criteria?
How is the open and decentralized?
I do understand that this is a libertarian platform and most people here don't believe there is a government here on the platform because it is "open and decentralized."
Who is going to vett is a good question. How can that be developed is another good question. Neither one do I have an answer for at this time.
Based on what criteria? That would also have to be developed. I'm sure some of you that have been around would have some opinions on it. Maybe the criteria is as rigorous as becoming a doctor; maybe something a little less intensive. Right now, as it is, if a person has money, they have the power to control (government) what happens on this platform. Money should not be the deciding criteria because the some of those people with the money have ill-intention or just simply have a strong opinion about something.
I say leave the DV that doesn't take away any money but don't give everyone the power to take (steal) other people's money.
It's a DPOS (Delegated Proof of Stake) platform, that means... Literally... those who are invested make the decisions.
Sort of like a business owner. Those who do not have stake invested do not.
The entire blockchain runs on that... The entire distribution runs on that.
It doesn't mean they are right or they are doing the right things, but what it does say is they have the RIGHT. And every user can decide if they like the system or not and participate or not.
It has flaws, big flaws, but if you don't understand the blockchain part... The distribution and management it sounds like you joined a platform that you didn't understand.
Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it less true.
While your ideas are great, they do not match the Steem Blockchain. Maybe a bunch of you should get together and make a competitor programmed around some different criteria.
Again, it comes down to who has the most money and that shouldn't be the one deciding factor. What about time invested in the platform? What makes this not count?
But, my opinion doesn't matter here because I'm a homeless dude without much money and, therefore, shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion. Many of the content creators here, while they may not be homeless, don't have much money either; but we do bring something to the platform: our under-valued content that gets us little return on our time invested. But, hey, we're poor. So who gives a fuck. As you said...
This is my current opinion on how this platform is run.
I'm still here though, chipping away.
I'm glad you are here... and you can hold opinions, but the opinions you hold are on a Delegated Proof of Stake Blockchain.
Which means... All decisions are based on stake. All distribution is based on stake. It's just a fact no matter what people's circumstances are.
Late thank you for dropping by @tristancarax and your comment.
Somehow I didn't notice your comment until just now.
Cheers, Piotr
What an excellent and mature comment @tristancarax
🙏🏼
Thanks for dropping by and your supportive comment @tristancarax
It's hard not to agree with you,
Piotr
''In any case we do have to accept unreasonable upvote and downvotes.''
I have two questions.
What is an unreasonable upvote?
And why should anyone accept flags for anything other than plagiarism?
To accept such behavior is clearly the death of Steemit, it needs more users.
if the aim is to de-fang Steem and make it irrelevant everything makes sense.
Perhaps some do want to make the blogging side irrelevant.
Many believe that endusers do not add value, so in their mind, any upvote is unreasonable, so feel self upvoting is unreasonable. All sorts of people have different views.
Now what?
I dont see that they want to make the blogging side irrelevant. If anything the focus on quality posts is harming the platform. Allow the focus to be on the connections made not this pathetic curation farming
They want to make the human connection irrelevant which is possibly the number one component.
''Now what?''
Get clear about how flags are used: Farming and plagiarism and abusers who flag outside those perimeters such as @berniesanders / @themarkymark and the rest of the irredeemable's
Its just not that complicated
And how will I enforce this on Bernie and Marky?
hold on here... if your VP is sitting at 100% that indicates you are not only not downvoting .. you are not UPVOTING others.
That begs the question.. if you're posting and expecting upvotes.. then why are you not upvoting others?
When my VP gets up to 100% it's a signal to me that I've not been active and need to get busy. You need to get busy engaging and upvoting others if you don't want to downvote.
Seems to me that transisto maybe didn't communicate as well as he could have but he has a point.
ShadowsPub
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I must inform you that since the last hardfork in september there is two separate pools, one for downvotes and one for upvotes.
You can use only your upvotes and have your dv power at 100%.
You can easily see this by going for example to any profile in steemd, where you have 2 power lines, one for UV and another for DV.
The issue highlighted here is not that she doesnt upvote, but that she doesnt downvote.
First, I have a life outside and Steem, I don't monitor my VP 24 hours a day and upvote whenever it drops.
Second, I curate for other communities, when I'm not upvoting other people, I am still curating and supporting others
Third, in the 20 minutes before you cared so much to check my VP, I upvoted 5 posts, spent 10 ten minutes writing a comment because it takes me ages to write a comment in Chinese but I still do it because I care about reading posts and writing quality comments
Fourth, the last I checked my own VP, it was at 91% not 100%
Fifth, and I repeat, What the hell does my voting power have to do with anyone on Steemit?
Apart from downvoting random people, getting busy engaging and upvoting others, is there any thing else I need to do? I'll make sure I pin it up in front of my computer screen so I don't forget.
you are the one who made the statement about your 100%VP being the cause of you getting the downvotes. So since you don't want to get downvotes for 100% VP and don't want to be coerced into downvoting, it follows that more upvoting solves the problem.
Since you're curating for other groups .. maybe leave a browser open with your account logged into and upvote the posts your curating? Gives more support to who you are curating and uses up your VP.
Are you for real?
HF21 and 22 anyone? And you are on the board? FFS, maybe that's why @elipowell still can't figure out where the power up button is.
lol
You've got
DRAMA!To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.!dramatoken
Be right back with a special honorary @transisto Batman meme but had to call it before someone else does!
Transisto is a nutcase though, the downvote crying aside. lol.
Piotr is just taking it too personally. You need to learn to take it with a pinch of salt.
Vote, downvote... At the end of 7 days is what is yours.
Dear @lordbutterfly
Thank you for dropping by. I've been trying not to take it personally and my goal was to underline problem, which most users seem to scared to talk about. As a result I got downvoted massively by few large accounts as well.
I really don't like seeing more and more users leaving this platform, because they feel targeted and have no idea what to do about it.
Yours, Piotr
Ever notice how a street-performer never complains when you leave $5 in their hat, but they throw a fit when you TAKE $5 OUT-of-their-hat and redistribute it to the other street-performers?
How weird is that?
While I don't totally agree, I certainly loved this comment. :)
haha you know its exactly the same.
No it isn't, It's more like a week auction where people can bid for a week, but I thought it was a reat comment.
haha that is perfect
I have made lots of comments about unfair up votes
Most of them made by your buddies and their numerous accounts !
do you live in a cave?
I meant you don't see anyone say... I received an unfair upvote.
Not complaining about other people's stake and network.
Yea that would be right lol
Dear @whatsup
Thank you for your kind comment. I actually appreciate your feedback greately. I always like to hear people thinking alike - however I like to hear out those who disagree even more.
I fully understand your view and in many ways you're right. Noone does say 'it's unfair' that I got upvoted. But do we ever in real life complain when we're receiving gift? Or someone is showing support (that's what upvotes means)?
People never do that. It's simply against our nature. Wouldn't you agree?
However majority of population will feel stressed if they will feel targeted. That's how we all function.
And if at the end of the day our goal is to bring new users and to keep them here - then we need to understand that we're dealing with people. And being sarcastic isn't going to help us to reach our goals.
(by the way, i really enjoy sarcasm and I enjoyed yours too))
Just like you said: Everyone is acting on their own views of what is good and bad for the platform
I do agree, that we need to have downvotes. However at the same time I believe, that it's important to build awareness between huge whales that this tool can bring damage if it's being used like a machine gun.
Unfortunatelly it does reflect on your lack of understanding how general population seem to function :(
Yours, Piotr
And your constant cries for removing downvotes showcases that you don't understand it is the only tool we have for fighting those who would harm Steem.
You have to take the good with the bad and stop yelling about the unfairness.
have to agree with you on this. Instead of complaining about the downvoting, engage in educating people that they are a balancing point for the platform. That sometimes people doing the downvoting are not always going to make sense but it's going to happen.
As much as I loath Reddit ... the only real difference between downvotes here and downvotes on Reddit is that here they will impact rewards earned while on Reddit they impact visibility of the post. Their purpose is the same and just as important.
ShadowsPub
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Dear @shadowspub
What about educating people who have power to downvote others? What about educating them how powerful is this tool and what are consequences to those who are being often abused with flaggs?
I don't think "whales" need much protection here. But those users who receive downvotes for reasons like the one mentioned in the post (downvoted for not downvoting others) need to feel that someone care.
Yours, Piotr
The biggest part of the problem is they wont be educated. They know how powerful it is and choose to use it indiscriminately at times. I suspect they are over-compensating for other failures but that is just a theory and one I prefer not to seek further on.
ShadowsPub
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Hi again @shadowspub
Can I ask you for little favour? I joined contest called "Community of the week" with project I manage and I would be grateful if you could RESTEEM it and help me get some exposure and drop some encouraging comment :)
Link to my post: on steemit or on steempeak
Thanks :)
Yours, Piotr
We may have different views on very same topic @whatsup, however I respect the fact that you're very mature and polite with your replies.
Yours, Piotr
I've never found that having different opinions makes others unlikable.
I think via discussion we can come closer to at least understanding another point of view and in some cases finding agreement.
I also respect others who can discuss differences without getting personal.
Hi, buddy. I don't really know what to say about what this person says, but it sounds to me like what a socialist dictatorial authority would say: If you don't like the way I'm governing, you'd better leave the country
But it would probably draw too much attention and I would also be a victim of downvotes. Which appear for no reason in my posts every time.
Using negative votes may have good reasons, but when I have encountered cases of negative feedback, the author of the post asks what he did wrong, they do not respond and when you go to review the activity of the account that gave Downvote ... notes that does not publish anything and ALL the votes it makes are negative ... well, that is no longer normal and I do not think it is done for the tar goods and the health of the Steem blockchain.
If you want decentralized freedom you have to accept the good with the bad.
I think the way many of those downvoting are handling it, is silly. It is their right to do it and the system is designed around it.
You can yell about it, or you can try to understand why, quit taking it personally and understand how it works. It's up to you.
Certainly, our world is not perfect and there is no "Paradise" without problems, I know that and I can accept that all things have something bad that accompanies them, but does not imply that I like such bad things and that I do not want their effects or manifestations are reduced or at least controlled.
In this particular case, one thing that I don't like very much is the existence of accounts with the appearance of bots of negative votes, those that never publish or post or comment and when you start to see their activity you find that since its creation it only emits negative votes without stop ... that's suspicious.
Although bot accounts of this type have not caused me many problems, I usually ignore them, but instead, cases of application of the "Law of the Strongest" in which a user with a lot of SP harasses, crushes and chases another user. I don't like that either.
You're right @whatsup.
We must accept that we live in a world full of idiots. And that there are even worse idiots, who are on steemit and use DVP as they please just to satisfy the whims of that pair of neurons that they have in that place where the brain should be.
You're right.
Yes, that is true. There are idiots of all flavors here. Some downvote, some upvote, some refuse to understand how it works and demand it works differently.
Humans come in all shapes and sizes and intelligence levels.
I'm not saying I agree with many of the downvotes, I'm just saying that ignorance of how the blockchain works and handles votes and how it is designed isn't any better.
Wow! that was strong!
Well, there is an old saying that "God must love the crazy, because he has done many" unfortunately some of those crazy people have a problem in their heads that makes them feel pleasure in disturbing and harming other people, they are the ones we would call Troles, haters and (in offline cases) sociopaths.
Dear @whatsup, @pedrobrito2004
Ehm. With full respect: there is no such a thing on steem blockchain as decentralized freedom. Word FREEDOM doesn't fit current situation. We're experiencing here more of a decentralized bullying than freedom :)
Anyway, have a great day ahead
Piotr