Is crypto a great deal from the insignificant?

in OCD5 years ago

A friend of mine sold his house a few weeks ago, after it being on the market for over 6 months. The reason it took so long to sell was that it needed renovation work in the bathroom done, and since it is so hard to get a renovation loan, no one would buy it. Remembering that Finland is in a housing bubble, they sold the house that they have had for 12 years, at a small loss. Crazy.

However, they were also halfway through paying the mortgage which means they got a lump sum payment, part of which they chose to put straight into their current home loan. Fair enough. However, the other part (that I will assume is around 20,000€) is going to go into some investments, and since they didn't know what they should invest in, they went to see a wealth manager at their bank.

A fraction in

I joked with him the other day that he should put it all into a penny-coin crypto claiming to be the next Bitcoin, but I was really only half joking, and he knew it. It is a hard thing of course as crypto comes saddled with a lot of risk, but I wonder which investment would yield the greatest return.

If for example, he decided to invest 10% of the total into crypto (2000€), which would you expect would provide the year on largest gains?

I would say that most investments the wealth manager is going to look at for their money are going to return potentially 10% in a year, so on 18,000, that is 1,800€, which is not bad. This means that in order to compete, the 2000 would have to increase by 90% over the next year.

ATHs and climbs

Bitcoin at this time last year was ~$3500 which means it is currently up ~300% since then. That 2000€ would be worth 6000 for 4000€ of gains. That is of course an easy decision to make in hindsight, but in order to get the same gains from this point, Bitcoin would have to hit 30K and be sold. However, it would "only" need to hit 19,000 for the 2000 to return 1800 to compete with the invested 18,000.

Then there is something like Ethereum, that is only up 200% since a year ago, but is still down ~6x on its $1400 highs. So, if bought today, Eth would have to hit about 480 dollars for that 2000€ to achieve the same as the 18,000 invested for a 10% gain.

What about Steem? Well, similarly to Ethereum, but to a far greater extent, Steem is about 30x down from the ATH, and at the current ~25 cents, would only need to hit about 47 cents for the 2000 to return the same as the invested 18,000. Is it possible? - nah, it'll never happen.

Is it really a real risk?

While capital investment always comes saddled with varying degrees of risk and crypto may seem particularly risky, is it really as risky as people claim? Sure, I do believe that there is a host of projects that are going to die a miserable death, but if one is looking long on Bitcoin, it is near guaranteed to perform as banks themselves seem to be pushing themselves into the market and adding their own gateways.

Considering how small the crypto market capitalization is, the amount of financial institutions making moves is unprecedented. Since banks never go into an investment with the intention of losing money and every dollar they spend is an investment, the sheer diversity of banks looking to get in and build in crypto should be a very large flag for investors to follow suit and do what they can to frontrun.

For all of these banks to get the returns they would seek, the crypto cap is going to have to run well into the many trillions, and sustain it long-term. While it sounds like a great deal to us at the moment, the amount is actually minuscule considering how much they have at their disposal and I do not believe it is going to be very long at all before people like my friend are going to be routinely offered high risk, high yield gains for a small percentage of their investment portfolio. When the banks have access to hundreds of trillions of investment funds globally, just a fraction diverted into crypto sends the marketplace parabolic.

Frontrunning the start of heavy investment into an industry means seeing massive gains for everyone in early, and that is pretty much all in crypto at the moment. Of course, one has to make sure that the crypto held is going to be a target to become an investment vehicle, so it is good to have some diversity.

A known loss, unknown upside

For my friends, they aren't likely to put any in on crypto for the same people most won't at this stage, they don't want to feel foolish if it all goes south. While people want access to the hockey stick upside potential, the ego and social implications of being wrong tend to make the downside seem much greater than it is.

Most people invest where most people invest and as such, those investments do not yield large results as so many people investing provide stability. While people want the gains of volatility, people far prefer the stability for the investments and if it does collapse in price, it doesn't fall too far as there are so many to prop it up, but it also doesn't climb too far up because there are so many people in the marketplace.

The investment institutions however are able to take percentage fees on all of these investors and use their own earnings to manipulate the markets for their own gains and invest percentages into higher yield themselves. It is always better to invest with someone else's money, and then offer the smaller piece of the pie in return.

Insignificantly significant

For me, I do not have any lump sum for investment and while I do put a small amount into a retirement fund like many, I am hoping that the small amounts I siphon into crypto will be enough to make the frontrunning of the coming institutions more than worthwhile and return a far greater amount than the retirement fund will, for much less in.

While I don't actually tell people what they should do with their money, it s common knowledge that investment diversity is part of the risk management. What people don't seem to count is that investment diversity is also to gain access to possible gains. Many people spread their money into what they consider investment vehicles like houses, shares and precious metals, but a small and relatively insignificant amount into the newest investment vehicle on the block has the very real potential to outperform them all.

For my friend, 2000€ is likely less than a couple weeks salary today, an amount that would otherwise be insignificant. I wonder what 2000€ spread across a few key cryptos will look like in 5 years. If Steem did happen to survive that long, what is your price prediction?

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

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You make a good point, even if one of the gaint superanuation funds put in a tiny pecentage of its envestment fund into crypto it will probably be more than the total market cap of that crypto.

Would be nice to have a 10% flutter of 20k knowing it wouldn't impact you much if it all went down the toilet.

My friend who's been a pro financial adviser for 20 years has not and (for now) will not touch crypto, even with other peoples money.

Just like having that 10% to flutter, some people won't risk anything, even if it doesn't really affect them to lose it.

My friend who's been a pro financial adviser for 20 years has not and (for now) will not touch crypto, even with other peoples money.

This sounds like the "I wouldn't fuck her with your dick" line :D

I think he may have said that in the next sentence :)

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With its witnesses and the way changes work, I can't say where the price will be. One of the main reasons is that STEEM can go through real transformations like done with the last few hardforks. But since everywhere on this planet, cultural wars are fought and the price of real freedom is getting higher by the day - the value of STEEM also increases. At some point, reality will hit the price.
Last Adpocalypse STEEM was on the way to 10Bucks, next one that'll not be the limit.

If it survives, I believe that five years from now and the pie will be significantly higher and pushing far higher than the last ATH. If it survives.

Are there signs that witnesses are leaving the chain? Am I missing something?

Umm, TRON bought Steemit Inc and has 70M staked Steem to vote with. It is a bit of a risk.

Then maybe we can retract some short sighted delegations :p

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$0.78 cents on July 1st.baring any fork in the steem block chain.

I'd take that right now!

baring any fork in the steem block chain.

:D :D

$0.78 cents on July 1st

I hope that isn't July 1st 2025!

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I am going to say Steem will hit an ATH of 16 USD in five years.

Hey @tarazkp, I will notify you on February 17th 2025, 12:00:00 pm (UTC)
Later! ( your reminders , read more... )

Don’t forget that with Steem you can also vote with your stake or lease it out and make 10% irregardless of the price increase.

That’s why I recently bought 30,000 Steem at 18 cents.

Definitely a big benefit. I wonder if that is what Justin Sun will do with his 70 million. 😂

The Finnish housing bubble is tiny compared to even Sweden or Denmark let alone most of the alone the UK, Australia or parts of North America.

To suggest that the whole country is in a housing bubble is ridiculous. The prices are slowly falling everywhere except for Helsinki urban area or the most wanted locations in a few of the largest regional centers. In fact, this has been the case since 2012. The housing market as a whole is very far from bubble territory.

A house in the suburbs of Tampere (guessing here) that was bought in 2008 is supposed to be nominally cheaper now, absent major renovations. Real incomes have gone up moderately since the financial crisis of 2008. But the house prices have stalled, relative to the rise in average real income, pretty much everywhere except for Greater Helsinki.

Very little demand on old houses and unrenovated apartments. You have to look at the differences between new and old, with new apartments climbing in price.

https://www.etuovi.com/kohde/9964771?haku=M1460203983

This one is in Ikuri on the western edge of city. Built in 1965. The surfaces have been done in 2012 but it is not mentioned that the bathrooms or the sauna would've been renovated. The living space is only 123 m2. Storage and other extras 60 m2.

In addition to the surfaces, a new bathroom with a shower has been built on the second floor. But if the main bathroom and the sauna are in original condition, as it reads and sort of looks like, that alone is a big minus. What about the condition of the roof? It's 55 years old. No proper drains below the gutter downpipe shoes. The whole guttering is basically a watering system for the footing. I would like to know if the drainage system around the footing is working. The water coming from the gutter downpipes is not led at least three meters from the house as the code says it should be since the 1990's.

What this house has going for it is the surface renovations inside and the fact that it's a freehold and that it has geothermal heating, which is the lowest cost heating option.

They're still asking €284,000 for it. I've noticed that the old houses are not that cheap compared to newer ones even here in Lahti where everything is 30 to 40 percent cheaper than in Tampere.

https://www.etuovi.com/kohde/m27767?haku=M1460206236

This one is in Niemenranta for 279K, 62 m2.
I sold a similar place 6 years ago next to the Tre Työväen Theatre right in the middle of the city for 110K less, and I was able to sell slightly higher than the average price in the area due to the renovation and made about 50k over what I paid in 2008. The prices on new places are insane.

Oh, and I was paying 120€ HV.

People are pushing themselves to the max to buy these kinds of places and there are tens of thousands f them around Finland it seems. When the economic crisis comes and pushes interest rates upward and those on the edge can't cope, watch the prices tumble. If you want a new apartment, have your cash ready.

That's very true. I could understand Tampella close to the rapid and the lake. But Niemenranta. It's too far from the city center.

Yes, you're right about that segment of the market.

It really is insane. There will be 5-10,000 people living there once it is done. 15 years from now, it won't be new and the people who bought there won't be able to sell. They are creating the future slums.

Edit: Finnish slums that'd be. Not exactly the Barrios of Brazil.

I could stomach €200,000, somehow. But €280,000 at that distance from the city centre, despite the tram terminus and the lake right next to the building? Even with the gorgeous lake views, the price level is too much for anyone rational.

Yes, that part of the housing market is in bubble territory. The trick is that only a half or so of the loan is personal. The rest is in the name of the corporation owned by the homeowners. The buyer only pays interest on the corporate loan for the first couple of years...

The buyer only pays interest on the corporate loan for the first couple of years...

Yes. And they get used to paying a low amount for a couple of years + no HV or YV for many in that time too... then suddenly, they have 1500€ to cover - it is going to be a bit of a lifestyle shock for them. Add a percent or two interest rate climb, or the 5 it was in 2008 and things get painful very fast.

For my friends, they aren't likely to put any in on crypto for the same people most won't at this stage, they don't want to feel foolish if it all goes south. While people want access to the hockey stick upside potential, the ego and social implications of being wrong tend to make the downside seem much greater than it is.

That...seems like a weird reason to not do something.

I am also probably completely the wrong person to say anything about doing anything XD

I can't remember why J doesn't deal in any type of currency at all (think it moves faster than he wants to keep track of or something, nope honestly can't remember), but at least he was consistent with his logic there XD Still working on trying to get him to buy me steem (every time I note it's gone up because I kind of can't miss it now with the graph in my wallet on steempeak he half-jokingly asks if he can retire yet so I like to pretend I'm closer to that XD).

That...seems like a weird reason to not do something.

People are weird. Social proof is a thing for a reason.

Perhaps if he starts with buying me Steem, he will be warmed up to buying you some too :)

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