RE: Tox-Blog #8: Aluminum. Toxicity, risks, and the consequences for food and vaccine safety.
No, they aren't poisoning our kids. Except the ones that developed post infectious polyradiculopathy (ascending paralysis) and died awhile after. Perhaps all the testimonials were frauds, paid off by "anti-vaxxers" but we shun conspiracy theorists! Right!? Maybe the CDC whistleblower was a fraud, just like the CDC told us! In all seriousness though, there are no mulit-generational studies on vaccines, in addition to our limited understanding of the body, this gives cause for skepticism. It serves to reason that ssRNA could be transformed into DNA in the presence of reverse transcriptase resulting in epigenetic mutations. I could argue vaccines are slowing down the evolutionary process as artificial active acquirement of immunity doesn't change the genome, but that of course would lack empathy and you may suggest that without vaccines we wouldn't be here today, citing studies indicating the vaccination savior complex. Again those studies would be contested just as the aforementioned physiological theories would be. In my opinion the truth about vaccines is that we don't know the truth about vaccines. Patronizing "anti-vaxxers" seems a bit ironic on a platform full of people like me who were laughed and scoffed at 3 years ago when talking about "crypto-currency." This is a contrarian platform, vaccines are universally accepted. This is a political issue as well, and I'm a big freedom guy. I like freedom and the freedom it gives me to be free.
Thanks for commenting. However, I'll have to argue with you ;-)
There will never be multi-generation studies on humans on any subject. It's simply impossible. You can do epidemiologic studies, but they have their limits. Doing them in a way that adresses effect over many generations is next to impossible.
Skepticism is good, but hysteria isn't. Especially not when mixed up with with a lack of scientific understanding:
just lol. First of all, this wouldn't be epigenetic. Second, even if this was the case (it isn't), what would it have to do with vaccines? If RT (which is not found in humans, we only have it as a part of another enzyme, the telomerase) would lead to the vertical transfer of genes, every RNA virus would be a huge problem for us, no matter if origined from "natural" infections or vaccines.
That would indeed lack empathy. But besides that, it's an incredible stupid argument, because EVERY medical advancement is changing the evolutionary process. Should we abolish antibiotics, appendix surgeries and hospitals too because of that? I guess we could live a stone-age life again just to strenghen evolution, but why would we want that?
BS. There is vast scientific knowledge about vaccinations. If you refer to the fact that science can never be 100% sure, yeah ok. But that's why we are working with probabilities, and vaccines are 99.99% safe. 0.01% is still a valid opinion, but by no means an equally valid opinion.
So what? The platform doesn't belong to you guys, but to all of us. That's the way it was designed. If anyone else is allowed to spread BS, I am allowed to provide the counter-argument. If your are so freedom-loving, why would you deny me the right the speak freely?
So it wouldn't constitute an epigenetic mutation, it could still happen and have negative systemic effects. I'm not trying to play semantics, but perhaps we should get on the same page. When you say vertical transfer do you mean in the birth process passed on to the next generation? That's not my understanding of epigenetic mutations. Should we abolish antibiotics? Well, no, should we force antibiotics down peoples throats in order to go to school? Many doctors are trying to get away from them anyways (at least with children) for the same evolutionary reason. Comparing vaccines to surgery seems a bit like an apple to an orange. When we break our arm, we don't develop immunity to fractures down the road. Sure, scientists know alot about vaccines, to the extent that our immune system is as simple as taught in med school. I'm suggesting that we have barely scraped the surface on that topic, the only topic we know a decent amount about is anatomy, and even that is unpredictable. What do you say to the parents who lost children to Guillian Barre? All the scientists and all the studies in the world, but what do you say to them? Nothing, you sweep them under the rug and continue to give kickbacks to doctors who keep their patients on a regular vaccine schedule. I'm not trying to deny your right to speak freely, I'm simply pointing out the irony of your tone when scoffing at non-conventional thinkers.
Believing vaccinations don't work and are evil has nothing to do with non-conventional thinking, it's plain denial of scientific facts because you'd rather believe the propaganda of "alternative minds".
You should probably read this. I qoute:
"There is little evidence to support a causal association with most vaccines. The evidence for a causal association is strongest for the swine influenza vaccine that was used in 1976-77."
You will never hear me saying that vaccines are in all cases completely safe. But the vast majority, and especially those that are common today, are. Also, as I pointed out, the use of aluminum is safe.
I have no idea what exact mechanism of mutations you are referring to... a vertical transfer is the transfer of a gene from another organism or virus to the host organism. And it is not more likely to happen from a vaccine than from a natural virus, that's what I was saying.
In the end, it comes to the point that even as vaccines cause harm in very very very few occasions, they are much preferable to the alternative: having all these deseases as epidemies on a regular base.
I'll post this because I wrote it before reading @Sco had said pretty much the same thing...
"post infectious polyradiculopathy ". You mean Gilainne Barre Syndrome? A neuropathy, not a radiculopathy lol... A condition that regularly occurs post C. jejuni and is well-researched post-vaccine and consistently shown to be a result of an underlying jejuni infection?
You don't need a multi-generation study to look at the impacts of something that doesn't affect germline cells.
You don't understand the human body doesn't mean we don't understand the human body.
Reverse transcriptase doesn't just float around transforming random thing lol... and let's say it did... how is that then incorporated INTO our genome? Just a floating piece of dsDNA that slots in?
A "contrarian platform" yeah? Try this new thing called using your brain... being an anti-vaxxer isn't a tough slog mate. It's quite the bandwagon these days. Try your hand at understanding science and medicine, THAT is a tough slog.
Feel free not to vaccinate yourself, but as always we all live in democracies and your freedom is balanced against the dangers it poses to everyone else. If your freedom not to vaccinate poses a risk to herd immunity, then you should probably go live on an island with all the other anti-vaxxers... let's see how long you remain anti-vax after.
"What do you say to the parents who lost children to Guillian Barre? All the scientists and all the studies in the world, but what do you say to them? Nothing, you sweep them under the rug and continue to give kickbacks to doctors who keep their patients on a regular vaccine schedule." -> Honestly this is just a joke... so let's break it down. GBS only rarely occurs in relation to vaccine and no causative link has been established... though there's a strong one with C. jejuni though. And believe it or not, the world is a large place. Not every nation gives kickbacks to doctors who vaccinate, yet every nation vaccinates. I know it can be hard to understand this with such a closed mind, but science exists all over the globe (you do believe it's a globe right?)... and all over the globe scientists aggree vaccines work and are risk-effective.
You seem to have a tentative relationship with reality mate. While you try and put forward logical arguments you stick to your indoctrinated beliefe while @sco mows down your points one by one. It's this clutching at straws that, in the end, always shows anti-vaxxers are never science, reason or logic based. It's just a religion. Like denying climate change or any other nutjob conspiracy.
@tfcoates radiculopathy is a type of neuropathy, im not sure why you needed to clarify what I meant by polyradiculopathy considering i referred to it as Guillian Barre as well. Wasting time with semantics to sound smart and you're wrong. I suppose anti-vax is gaining "steem" maybe that explains the personal attacks in both your comments. Nice to see people question their indoctrinated ideas, probably concerning for people who have been forcing vaccines on others while claiming a moral and intellectual high ground. It's not just me that has respect for the complexity of the body, neuroscientists all over the world will admit they understand very little of the nervous system. My position on vaccines is not indoctrinated, I chose to get vaccinated in the past, I've recently changed my mind and its possible i will again. This argument has elements untouched, i'm not digressing but I should clarify that I'm not entirely against vaccines, just like I'm not entirely against opiods. I don't agree with the CDC schedule and the age at which kids are vaccinated, and I don't see the value in the flu vaccine. Vaccines could very well be something that we look back on 30 yrs from now and go palm to forehead, just like we have with the initial rounds of vaccines. I understand my point on GBS and what you say to the parents is an appeal to emotion, but it's a reality, its not a joke for the families affected. That being said, I appreciate you guys taking the time to come down from your intellectual high-ground and engage with such a troglodyte as myself.
You're right, radiculopathy is a type of neuropathy, but not the type GBS belongs to... we figured that out decades ago.
What explains the person attacks is that a) I'm a dick and b) even only six weeks into actual hospital rotations and I've seen children suffering from vaccine preventable diseases. One bad enough that she'll never fully recover. Stop acting like you're perpetrating a victimless crime by spreading this crap... and c) because all your comments here on steem are visible, including the ones where you call pro-vaxxers 'charlitans'.
Oh and on a site note it's not a Mark Twain quote.
Glad you've finally recognized our moral and intellectual high ground.
Of course families are affected by GBS... if you want to talk about real impacts of vaccines talk about anaphylaxis or serum sickness... both are far more concerning for doctors administering vaccines. That's why they make you stick around 30 minutes after a flu shot. Literally every intervention any health professional has in the arsenal will have side effects, the best we can do is weigh them up against harms and 10/10 times vaccines come out right next to antibiotics as one of our best tools.
I do regret calling them charlatans. There is mudslinging on both sides. This topic ends up being very polarizing, to the extent that both sides are wrong. I do feel its a worthy topic tho, which is why I followed @sco. Im trying to decide where I really stand, im trying to keep an open mind. Im not on steemit for money im here because the content is so much better than facebook (although I have earned about 2$, nice)
I think there should be a balance and I think healthy lifestyles should be emphasized more than vaccines. I don't think either of you have all the answers and I know MD's on both sides of the spectrum. Because of the neurotoxins im not comfortable vaccinating newborns. The risks involved with vaccines seem to be more gnarly than the risks involved with the flu, in america at least. There are a lot of different angles at this debate and I really dont think its as simple as "yes or no"
BTW interesting side note on Samuel Clemens, but Im going to keep giving him credit for it because Im related to him.
I think part of our disagreement originates from our different cultural background. I am from Austria, Europe. And I can only really speak for our medical system. Kickbacks for doctors are actually illegal here. I'm sure they are happening anyway, to some extent, but they are much less common than in the US. Also, our prescription drugs and vaccines are WAY cheaper than in the US, where your governments of both sides of the isle, in collaboration with some big companies, really fucked up the medical system.
Also, you americans really do vaccinate a lot more than we are. For example, the flu vaccine is quite uncommon in Austria, and is almost exclusively given to adults. Also, I frankly think it is not necessary to vaccinate something as harmless as chickenpocks. But then there are lots of diseases where vaccines clearly improve the life quality of humanity.
Even as I admittedly might sound patronizing and even annoyed when speaking/writing to vaccination sceptics, this is more a consequence of extremely unpleasent debates of the past that feeling morally exulted. I made the experience that reason and scientific arguments are not helpful, at least when debating with the extreme kind. For me, a takeaway message of your feedback is to stay calm and dry like a buddhist monk, even if I'm broiling inside, when adressing vaccine science.
I do, however, not draw my conclusions from media, governments etc. I really read up and interpreted the science behind vaccines myself - which I am luckily capable of due to my extensive scientific education (PhD biochemistry). And from what I saw there, vaccines are in general safe and useful, even as minor problems might exist here and there.
Most of the arguments of the anti-vaxxing movements have been thoroughly debunked already, and it's frustrating for us scientists when people clutch to their falsified believes rather than listening to reason. Sadly, there's also a huge "detox-industry" profiting from science denialism, and it contiues to fuel it via pro-conspiracy-web pages/blogs and radio shows.
In reality, when something is wrong with a medical treatment, it's scientists, and not conspirationalists, that will find the error. We constantly review old conclisions with state-of-the-art methods.
I think we can agree that we should continue to make vaccines even better and safer.