RE: Freedom Of Religion: The Problem with the Manifestation of Belief
Great piece! ❤️
So I’m going to play devils advocate here and offer something.
And that is, in a free market a business that chooses to knock back business does so at their own financial peril.
If a business wants to discriminate, it needs to be prepared to lose customers. Like what happened with Coopers Brewing and their ultra-right-wing pro-Christian advertising. The social backlash was nothing compared to the fact that all the gay pubs that stocked Coopers stopped buying – they didn’t know the gay scene was one of their biggest markets!
I guess the other thing is, if I was LGBTQI and wanted to get married to my partner, why would I go to a church? Why would I want to support an institution that is openly hostile to my nature?
Why would I want to work for a company that had opposing values either? It’s not discrimination if there is a clash of values IMHO.
So it kinda makes no sense that either side of the debate are creating hypotheticals that in reality may never happen.
I’ve got more to say on the broader topic, but maybe I should make my own Freedom Friday post 😉
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Yes, make your own post for sure! Thanks for commenting. It's all very well and good to say yeah boycott them, but i do think that there should not be any exemptions for reigious reasons - because I can't see how a law that is meant to benefit everyone doesn't apply to a select group. Sure,you can have your beliefs, whatever, but you shouldn't really have freedom to fuck with other people's freedoms. And I think LGBTQI go through enough without having to make decisions about boycotting haters. Absolutely wouldn't work for someone with a clash of values, and nor should they be expected to hire me, but it shouldn't impact on the day to day lives of ordinary people, say, buying beer or cake.
It's also a moot point - it's not that, as a LGBTQI I would want to get married anywhere that doesn't accept me, but about that I should have the same rights everyone else does. By disallowing them access to the insitutions that everyone else has access to, you'd still be supporting a society that wasn't inclusive and equal of all. Hypotheticals are still exclusive and discriminatory.
It's just like marriage - many lgbtqi shunned marriage as an institution, but still thought the hypothetical - if i wanted to, i should be allowed to. Because as a non lgbtqi, i have that choice. So why shouldn't others?
to play devil's advocate on your own question:
to answer this one- some LGBTQI peeps identify as christian and are an active part of the church. that the church largely excludes them doesn't stop their belief or desire to belong. a complicated tale. and for anyone reading, the bible, while openly decrying "sodomy" is not strictly against lesbians or gays.
Disclaimer: I gotta say firstly that I personally don't like objectifying and generalising groups of people - especially when I'm not part of that group. Just so's we're all on the same page. And also owning the fact 🙋🏽♂️that I am in this instance part of the 'privileged' group (white (well, more olive), male, heterosexual, middle-aged, bourgeois)... which is primarily why I don't believe my opinions actually matter in this instance, and I am personally in agreeance on this issue.
Given we are talking about same-sex marriage in the context of freedom of religion... members of that community are now legally able to get married, and so still maintain the right to do so. And rightly so. If a priest chooses not to officiate on the basis of religion, it hasn't taken away the right to marry. Especially when there would continue to be those who are spiritually and legally entitled and willing to do so.
We're talking about harm here.
And I understand your point @mountainjewel. I know there are priests of the Christian faith here in Oz who openly celebrate and are willing to marry same-sex couples. And that's my point - go get married by those real Christian ministers who are actually practicing their faith rather than the bigots who clearly use religion to hide behind their own bigotry.
I guess I'm saying it becomes a matter of focus - either support and celebrate those who are pro-same-sex marriage, promote their parishes amongst the community, patronise their businesses, and so on.
leave the others to lead their miserable, hypocritical lives.... they will eventually die out and become extinct like the dinosaurs they are.
This is a wider thing about freedom. Human society functions like an organism - anything that doesn't serve our continuity and flourishing eventually dies out. We are evolving.
Yep, and then eat the cake and beer from sellers who aren't bigots too, I totally get it.
I still think that we need to support true equality in Australia, which means that everyone should have the same access to everything without fear of reprisal, exclusion, hatred blah blah blah. But you make a great point about things no longer serving and dying out. Yet, still, half of us identify as christian, and many more other denominations - what's that all about, in a country where we're not even really practicing? I suppose 30 percent of us on the last census said we don't belong to any religion... I dont even know if it's a good or bad thing. It's a complex issue. But still, I dont really think they should be exempt from laws, as we know where that kinda thing leads to...
So to set aside playing devil's advocate (that term seems rather apt in context, don't you think?)....
Creating exemptions from laws and regulations is a decidedly tricky thing. Because it does create rather nasty precedents. I imagine if any legislation was put forward it would have to get challenged under common law.
One has to ask the question as to the intention of wanting to be exempt from discrimination laws. Which is why I feel the whole argument is based on hypotheticals. Because honestly, I don't imagine any same-sex couples approaching a parish to get married unless they knew that priest was openly and willingly supportive of it. Same with businesses. One would have to question the sincerity of The Church, given their appalling record of abuses over the years. Like when they try to defend against allegations of abuse..... grrrrr..... 😡
The problem is the humiliation that comes by being turned away.... and I'm not sure stuff like that gets fixed with legislation. Hence, I feel the better way, a way that is more pro-active and prevents the humiliation and trauma, is to create databases of businesses/etc that support SSM, and actively promote and patronise those businesses, so the humiliation is avoided in the first place.