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RE: Proof of Good Governance

in #eos3 years ago (edited)

Replying to some comment with all “your” suggestions.

  1. Ability to negate voting power -> if implemented in the form described in your GitHub issue, this provides opportunity cost on individual bases. Because of the opportunity costs, this proposal if implemented would resultingly be flatly obtuse from a game theory perspective. There are merits for additional controls over rewards distributions but this specific negating control mechanism is inconsiderate of second order effects and overall obtuse compared to its stated purpose. Instead, new rewards pool controls are best experimented on in new token ecosystems. Thats why SMTs, naturally. Which you laughably told me were a bad idea, “because there can only be one global currency”, twice.
  2. n^2 -> talk about “stealing”. n^2 can only seem “fair” when you’re sitting on top of the STEEM rich list, like you are. Now that STEEM rewards are linear there is no more stealing, finally. But keep in mind, STEEM is only one form of a distribution game, and truelly it is an opt in system, which is itself another premise from which to argue around these topics.
  3. Identity as a consensus for distributions is my idea (page 53 Smart Media Token Whitepaper). It will be implemented in SMTs via Oracles.

You told me twice, in 2016 and 2017, SMTs were a bad idea, “because there can only be one global currency”, before going off to market multi currencies in your new project. Now you’re back to propose microscopic changes to the STEEM rewards contract. There is no need for forcing these proposals in the face of SMTs.

Contributed from my iPhone. Please excuse grammatical mistakes and errors.

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Hi ned,

I told you 2 months ago, that the Steem Economic System is currently completly broken

And by the way, where is the app your "CTO" promised for December?

Don't get me wrong. I know that IT projects are usually not delivered in time. But as Investor into STEEM I expect that late deliveries are communicated.

Please update the timeline for the major milestones of your roadmap (currently SMT, APP, Communities) for instance on a monthly basis. That would increase the trust in your team massively.

Hes is not the CTO, remember ?

ned specified that he is a Private Contractor, rofl and they have no control over him or his actions.

That's ridiculous. If that were true why does steemit inc pay him? Obviously private contractors are under the control of those who contracted them in order to get something done. Why else would a contractor be hired?

Just clarifying, you know I am referring to Sneak right?

The way you two interact @dan & @ned with each other is exactly the same way as to how a divorce couple interacts with each other after being married for more than 10 years 😂😂😂

They also have at least two common children - Steem and Steemit 😂

What is the number one parenting advice? Never argue with your (ex)spouse in front of children. Both parents will always lose a little bit of respect and authority in the eyes of a child.

Children usually loves both of parents - they are feeling uncomfortable seeing own parents fighting.

Steem and Steemit are their common children and they both love and cherish them

However the problem is about accepting their step-children: SMT, EOS, BTS.. which they need to keep calm and then they can reconsider about their re-marriage..

Their common children needs both parents.. but that is only possible when each can accept the younger step-children :P

not sure if Bitshares even cares about Ned or Dan, actually. Parents, we're ok, just feel free to act as you wish ;)))

they could just write an email or call, after working together they should have private means of contacting each other...
Sadly the "vibe" i am getting from Dan is that he is "dissing" his former project Steem to promote his new one...

Ned, love your work. Please ignore all the whinging replies. I don't think SBD and STEEM would be where they are now with out prospect of SMTs. There are now tons of original content creators earning a living here, not just a select few, and we thank you for that.

I am utterly perplexed as to why anyone is unhappy right now. Work on your blog, work on your network -> make ridiculous money. What's the problem? If you can't make money here with SBD at $9, the problem isn't Steem.

The SMT effect:

I second that.

What's the problem? If you can't make money here with SBD at $9, the problem isn't Steem.

Somehow you are correct! What I am worrying about is the fact that they are printing additional more SBD almost everyday to make the price stabilizes back to $1 USD.

Personally, I am from South East Asia and I can quit my day job and focus more on Steem if I get a gross total amount of $5 per day on multiple posts. But what if the SBD price gets back to normal? It's going to be a hard time earning a living.

The discussion is about building a better community long-term, not about making more money short-term.
Market is in a bull run right now so posts are more profitable currently but overall profitability doesn't imply fairness in reward pool distribution.
Working on your blog/network may give you ridiculous amounts of money but self-voting gives you even more, and some folks think that is a problem.
SP renting and self-voting are issues that doesn't go away with a high coin price, in fact they are amplified.

@ned, although I respect your position, let me say to you as I said below you @dan

At the end of the day I thought steemit was self governed, which means users decide. Its a pity that negative posts and comments get more traction than positive ones.

@ned engaging with negativity will lead to more negativity. However if you could engage with the positive stories on Steemit you could make so much more of a difference
https://steemit.com/gifteconomy/@stellabelle/why-no-one-pays-attention-to-the-gift-economy-and-why-they-look-at-violent-stuff-instead

There is really no improvement needed other than proper use of steem inc's SP. Misterdelegation has enough SP to empower the community against large stackholders using their SP and not following community standards.

I am actually a bit glad that you came out of twitter to post this here.

How is consensus reached for what community standards are and where are community standards posted?

Steemcleaners community standards is pretty much accepted by all the big guys. Try violating that and they will go after you. Haejin wasn't shut down because what he did didn't explicitly constitute violation of anti abuse community standards.

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Interesting that you can make almost $500 by by commenting on your OWN platform @ned...

Seems like THIS was the way you all could've "Paid" yourselves for building SteemIt, instead of Pilfering the platform right out of the gate. The Pilfering of the economy is the only real problem here, not the way the voting works. When you imbalanced the economy in this way, you made a very powerful Plutocracy... what did you expect would happen?

img

~Frank

Imgur

You mean stake weighted voting is causing an imbalance? I do agree. It’s like scrabble where every time you create a word you get to play the next turn with more letters (than the seven letters you used to be permitted per turn). New players show up but can never catch those who began earlier who win more and more easily. Unlike n^2, players in linear at least don’t win more and more easily. Nevertheless, to counter this “imbalance” I am working on identity driven Oracles in SMTs to enable token systems that are analogous to scrabble games where everyone begins on equal footing, has the same number of letters to play each turn and the game ends/starts over predictably.

Contributed from my iPhone. Please excuse grammatical mistakes and errors.

Nice strategy @ned. Explore the promise of the original sandbox through blueprints of autonomous extensions (SMT) without unduly interfering with the status quo - a good tack.

Sounds good! Where is the official website for SMT? I am wondering if there is some kind of airdrops.

I don’t know if you’re already familiar with Steemify but reading in your comment, your contribution coming from an iPhone, perhaps you might be interested in a dedicated notification app for iPhone users only called Steemify, we as @blockbrothers build this app. Just download it for free and never miss out on any notification anymore!

Get it Here:

Every your comment = one $iPhone.

I am only in my infancy of understanding crypto and steemit, but I am learning more and more daily, thank you for contributing!

I think preventing large stakeholders from being able to "win" easily is much less critical than making sure they only win when the whole community wins. A longer vesting schedule might help with that, and I favor curation penalties as well so that regularly voting against strong stakeholder quality consensus has a cost.

Whether people mainly vote for quality or just to reward themselves will determine whether Steem devolves into a Ponzi scheme or not, and I see that as the largest risk for the network.

Once too much stake is held by abusive voters, the only way to recover will be forking them out. The sooner we can stop abuse from being profitable the less likely that is to be necessary.

I don’t know much about corporations....Question, how many companies allow investors decide how it’s going to operate?

Short answer: Not many, but it depends on how united and vocal the investors are.

I always felt the market was the driver, unless there is a monopoly...I am still learning about economic structures, business and different forms of governments. Steemit has driven me to dig deeper. I've read a great deal since 2007, especially different forms of abusive government structures. Thank you @glenabrethsen.

Perhaps it's time to have a meeting of the minds for the sake of the continuity of this platform and its underlying blockchain. EOS trades over $300M daily and is valued at over $5B - Dan clearly has done something right there. Since his post, steem is up over $1 and its 24 hour trading volume is approaching $20M on CoinMarketCap - over 3X its daily average of around $6M seen over the past few weeks. It's currently trading at just under $4.

Steem does have the potential to be among the top cryptocurrencies but it necessitates self-introspection that ultimately leads to constructive improvements for the benefit of all. As I see it, the price action over the past 24 hours suggests the crypto market was seeking this open discussion and it's an important one to have for rejuvenating confidence, whatever the outcome.

If Steve Jobs and Bill Gates could resolve their differences, maybe both of you can too.

EOS just did a crowd sale at the right time. It hasn't even launched yet so we cannot know whether it does something right.

Thanks for the comment. I brought up EOS because the market has clearly voted in favor of it in light of its considerably fast rise in the crypto space to a valuation of over $5B at the time of this post. It has achieved this status in the last few months of this year. Steem has been around since 2016 and is just now finally trading above its all time highs from then.

I understand that blockchain development is still up and coming and we will not realize the full extent or potential of this technology for perhaps many years to come. Nonetheless, I think it is fair to encourage the cofounders of steem and steemit to reconcile for the sake of the community at large. Dan clearly has some insights to offer that the market reacted positively too, in light of steem's value appreciation over the last 24 hours since his post.

This discussion is needed and in my opinion should not spiral down to a "he said, she said" commentary about past disagreements amongst whales, but rather an acknowledgement of what is and isn't being done right and how steemit can ultimately improve for the better moving forward.

Well, steem is now decisively trading above its previous all time highs from 2016, currently around $5 per Coinmarketcap. Considering the timing and extent of bullish momentum, I have a hard time believing that Dan's post and the resulting discussion weren't the precursors for this renewed buying interest to kick off 2018. The market seems to be in favor of an open dialogue towards improving steemit and by association steem's perception within the crypto space. Steem was trading around $3 when Dan published his comments regarding governance yesterday and the 24 hour trading volume is now over $40M.

I always imagined "non-linear rewards" to mean sqrt(n) and thought n^2 was a typo.

Have you considered the sqrt(n) approach? It would mean the influence of steam power would have diminishing growth as n increases.

Exactly, n^2 (n squared) doesn't make sense? Or is n the amount of SP or not?

Flagging because I do not feel this comment is worth $550. Just a bit of a balancing act.

SMT's are not going to solve the issues caused by the distribution of Steem. Look at the mess being made by the terror of incompetent, absent or psychopathic whales already. Good whales simply can't keep up. You are only going to compound the effects and potential for harm by building out the steem economy and increasing its complexity on such a terrible foundation. Fix the distribution. We need thousands of engaged whales and zero mega-whales. Power within the Steem economy needs much more balance. Is anything being done? Is there any recognition of this? This economy should be on a journey to being for everyone or it's for no-one. Can you imagine Steem becoming a globally accepted unit of exchange, store of value etc with some of today's whales holding the power they will have, wielding it as they have been? No frickin way bud. Zero chance. All you'll end up with is a fancy feudal-like system. Please tell me how you control the abuse and how long it will take to implement.

I read your comment thoroughly ned, thank you. I believe I just about understand what you are hoping to implement with your scrabble analogy. The issue (and I recognise that I am not an expert, far from it) I have is if you successfully create colonies of value within the steem network that can shut out the stake weighting of the supra-token, steem, then doesn't that challenge the value and validity of steem? Why would the majority of steemians even use steem if it were possible for a different token to supplant steem because it acted potentially more fairly and in their interests? Perhaps I just don't comprehend the way SMT's are deployed and operate within Steem. I still believe the bad distribution of steem will continue to negatively affect everything built upon it. A bad whale that is blocked from every other community based around an SMT will still continue to be able to access the reward pool according to the stake weighting.....correct?

@ned I love your view on things like playing a game. But scrabble? ;-) I was surprised to see on the live communitys that people still play counterstrike and not because it works on all computers like as I was 14 :-D Short rounds, benefits in the long run - 2 partys, fast and easy even for beginners that gain in skill, not in time of being there in the community.
I went in here active a few days ago and I feel all the time as a new guy in a company after 3.5 years of training and it seems like I need or have to "dig into whale asses" to evolve in here not for being diligent or hard work. (In facebook I felt way better at the start) I understand that money gives power but if it is possible what you want to change that only "diggers" could rise up great content creators will pass over time. So if I understand you right, you want to strengthen the fundamental players and creators. That is only possible to share or reduce the power of the big players and has to be done to give this community a future (not by utilizing one new platform after another when the fundamental basement (steemit.com) is rotten)
Thanks for your effort - I hope it pays out for you and the whole community

Actually, as much as i dont want to admmit it, in a Games Theory perspective, Steemit is not incentivized in making great content, but into acumulating power so its easier to accumulate even more.

I'll explain in Games Theory:

First round:

The whale has strong incentives to post to make money, so he makes content knowing he will win.
The minnow has strong incentives to post to make money, so he makes quality content expecting to win.

Second round (t +1, after publishing):

The whale won more power and more money, now he needs less effort to gain the same amount in the next round. (The more steem power the more visible someone is)
The minnow gained little or nothing after publishing, so he has less incentives to give same effort in the next round, hence, he makes poorer content.

Third round (t + 2, after re-publishing)

The whale gained even more so he needs even less to gain the same amount in the next round.
The minnow gains little or nothing again, so he have incentives chase whales content expecting to get some upvotes.

Fourth round (t +3)

The whale gains even more (now that another little minnow is following him, commenting, etc.) knowing that it doesnt really matter the quality of his content... cus minnows will post and comment expecting his upvotes...
The minnow luckily got something from the whale, so now he has no or very little incentives to create more of his own and original content.
Results:

Poorer and poorer content being rewarded in the platform, and no incentives to do great as a minnow.

I like the SMT concept and the use of Oracles. I think there should be levels of privacy based on community standards, and I think communities is going to be necessary for Steem to scale because I do not see how everyone will be able to agree with all the decisions that are being made as they is no community consensus on many of these decisions.

It has been an interesting experiment and I feel the linear reward curve is more beneficial to the community as a whole.

Minds.com is integrating a crypto currency into their platform as another way to get paid. Is there any chance it will be a SMT @ned?

thanks @ned for saying something i noticed that @dan is cashing out alot of steem should anyone be worried? also was wondering if there was going to be an improvement on voting power or ability to cast more votes as more people join the platform because im noticing a lot of posts arent even making 1.00$? thanks again :)

Hello @ned and @danHappy New Year
We may find some problems in society but there is no system without mistakes
I would like to talk about the idea of ​​proof of personality
This can only be done
Factors that help
Accounts recorded daily on the network and previous accounts are confirmed by mobile and network number rather than numbers and services and phone numbers
You can limit and add two teams. A team is equipped and we make an announcement to raise the balance of the accounts and it is confirmed by the competent team. This will make the stop limit of the counterfeit accounts the factor of assigning the IP numbers to the users.
Good in the community The project is on a wider scale around the world. I am from Egypt and currently the English language is not good but from a year here on the community I see a lot of people around the world here.
There are many ideas and equipment that help the community here
I am very sorry because the subject is too large and it is not right to write some words about it
Dan's brother @dan when the decision was almost 10 months to resign, and the ISO project was opened. The idea is not wrong. Many projects from the community team and independent projects. The problem is that the declaration of resignation in Rae
Happy year for everyone

Hi @ned,

I realize this post is past payout; but, it is the quickest way I know of to contact you. I've tried maneuvering the Discord chat; but, admit I haven't quite found my way around the site.

This reminds me of a recent suggestion to utopian.io regarding a CONTACT tab added to the blog page. I will leave the link below, even though it was not accepted due to others making a similar recommendation.

The purpose of this communication is to ask that you review a current suggestion I’ve offered to @utopion.io. I hope you will review this contribution; and, give it an up vote if you envision this idea a viable means of growing the Steemit-user base.

https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@spiritualmatters/steemit-referral-bonus-great-incentive-for-generating-new-users

Btw, here’s the link to the post regarding the Contact tab:

https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@spiritualmatters/contact-tab-needed-for-professional-use-in-steem-community

Many thanks in advance!

Peace.

I was writing about different problem. It is lack of functionality on steemit. We need some categories inside blog, so if someone is looking for something he can find fast. And we need some different approach with exposed posts. In 2 years there is almost no way, someone will show his original post with great content among all this shit posts with load of upvotes. I am right now struggling with my followers and a lot of people are asking me, how come I don't have more followers etc... Yes of course I am gaining every day. It is slow peace, but after 2 years when this will be billion community, then is no way someone will swim to the surface.

Well, mine 50c and if someone is for my debate about steemit future, please reed it here
https://steemit.com/steemit/@wnfdiary/how-to-make-steemit-futureproff

excellent debate. At least we can watch day-to-day debates between the founders!! Keep growing Steem

This is the largest comment upvote i have seen on steemit..awesome.

happy new @ned
This is brainstorming. Good ideas, welcome development. bring it on

what if smart media tokens make everything that is on steem blockchain only to acces with hundreds of different tokens ? If that will be the case I better move on to another decentralised thing man I mean everything people want is freedom

Honestly, it is just nice to see the OG creators still being active on the platform despite @dan departure. I'm also very happy to see that you two are on a discussion-level basis. It was a shame to see you two split off though I am excited to see how strong @eosio will grow.

As a fellow Virginian with a brother graduating from @dan Alma Mater, I'm compelled to play favorites with him despite his untimely departure from Steem Co. I wish you both a happy new year and I look forward to seeing your activity on the chain!

Thanks for a wonderful platform!

@ned what type of iphone are you using?..i @smokeasare165 am using iphone 5. (Please it a funny comment i mean no harm)

Exactly, n^2 (n squared) doesn't make sense? Or is n the amount of SP or not?

Identity as a consensus for distributions is my idea (page 53 Smart Media Token Whitepaper). It will be implemented in SMTs via Oracles.

This is the best solution in terms of both perceptional and practical efficiency I have seen so far. But what I am wondering is whether STEEM will be left behind the Oracle. I hope the base currency of SMT (STEEM) also has same or similar tool to address abuse.

I just be a korean newbie in the stimit.Its awesome.i will try to do my best .Pls give us more good info .....^&^

If Dan is done with Steem, he should burn his remaining balance to @null Its unfair that an original core member is using STEEM as their personal bank account after leaving the project.

Excellent Idea... or he could just as easily sell it all in big chunks and tank the price.

Your move @dan... your move.

Fine by me.

Dan's point is that under the current system it's easier to abuse the system, i.e. make 10 posts daily with a bot and upvote them than it is to police those kind of behaviors and thus those behaviors will become the norm and will permeate Steem and those who engage in it will become the most prosperous Steemians which will leave everyone in need to engage in those behaviors.

I might have misunderstood Dan's point and I'm not saying his point or solution are correct but Steem's incentives are fundamental to Steem's success and can't be relegated to an afterthought.

I've just written some more thoughts on the subject here.

Flagged for aggrandizement I suppose.

Dilly Dilly!

Dear @teamsteem ,
I voted for you as a witness, I have an important question:
for to exchange Steem into another crypto currency we all need an account at a crypto currency exchange. There are 2: Bittrex and Poloniex
Bittrex stopped open new accounts since 15th december, when they start again? Nobody knows.
At Poloniex I tried to sign up a new account yesterday, until today I got no confirmation mail to start the opening procedure!
So what to do?
How can new users exchange their steem? That's the big question and I don't understand why Steemit and the big "whales" not offer any support for that problem, they all have their accounts already.... That makes we wonder, really, because that's the main reason why people join Steemit, to earn a little money, but if there is no possibility for exchange steem, all is useless.
Have you any idea?

I think opening an account on poloniex should be pretty instantaneous.

Other exchanges are listed here but they are pretty limited.
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/steem/#markets

Thank you, I did it now on blocktrades with success

@blocktrades is fast but quite expensive

I was really surprised, I changed Steem into lightcoin and send lightcoin to Bitcoin exchange Thailand, the fees were very low, and it was really very fast, some minutes. I really feel better now after my first payout experience, hehehe

@teamsteem
just finished my post about my first payout experience, I hope I can motivate many newbees.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@zanoni/my-first-payout-experience-on-steemit-100-trust-and-motivation
Best regards, thanks for your time and attention you spend.
Best regard
Tom

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