Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?
Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?
Currently, upvotes on Steem reward the author 75% & curators share the remaining 25%.
This poll is asking if the community believes that curation & author rewards should be split 50/50.
- Yes
- No
Answer the question at dpoll.xyz.
Voted for
My vote is yes to 50/50 as a good first step, but just to clarify on my position, check out the end of this comment at the "extra" as I just want to focus on the 50/50 item atm.
Concern: 50/50 is too heavy. 40/60 might be better. Curators are taking too much of a cut while doing much less than authors. Better to focus on more apps and biz. There will be a different maximization game with the change.
Response:
Firstly, think of a hypothetical Steem economy with 100% author rewards and 0% curation rewards, 100/0. Voters will most likely just upvote themselves all the time. Broadly speaking, 100/0 is in effect, the economic equivalent of 0% author rewards and 100% curation rewards, 0/100, as voters just end up getting all the rewards voting anywhere. Nothing left for authors either way for any decent content. Looking at this symmetry, it stands to reason that 25/75 today is in effect like 75/25, and 40/60 is like 60/40. So 50/50 is in effect, just the same at 50/50. In fact I'd expect anything besides a close approximation of the 50/50 effect would end up collapsing into somewhere near the 0/100 or 100/0 region, after a long period of time. Again, just broadly speaking though. Not really debating 60/40 or 40/60 is better than 50/50, as long as it achieves the 50/50 effect in the end for every vote given out to something decent.
Secondly, authors effectively get their rewards from curators, and authors are also curators themselves. It's a social
networkblockchain. Personally, I don't really get the dichotomy here even though there are obviously users that only create or curate. Saying no to improved curation reward is almost like telling our sponsors they shouldn't get the best and most sensible returns possible from supporting our work.Thirdly, imagine a channel where the best curators hang out while onboarding / promoting great content creators. Let's say Pewdiepie or whoever else you're already digging on Steem or anywhere else. With the right incentives, we'd be happily voting on content that we're already consuming everyday and even take the time to promote upcoming great content creators. Sure, the many different apps that developers build are important, but I can't think of a better business for everyone other than going the route of trying to improve Steem's economy via its rewards or POB protocol, something which no user interface or application can ever do. More biz and apps are good but they're not necessarily Steem's topmost differentiating factor in crypto. There are plenty of high performance blockchains for biz and stuff. It's better to get Steem's economy around the right ballpark with the community we have, build it, and then the best of apps and biz will thrive along the way.
Extra:
I hope the other 2 items would get considered sometime in the near future to seal all the conceivable leaks in the boat the best we can. It also adheres to a better blockchain philosophy in my opinion, if considering notions of quality & quantity & incentives. Everything we encourage shoving into the chain is a cost someone has to bear in the future, etc. Sure we can and should have loads of activities coming from a social blockchain perspective, but incentives are another matter and not necessarily and straightforwardly all kinds of activities == incentives. We shouldn't get mixed up between these arguments. Minimize costs and maximize benefits. Cliche, but it's paramount to any blockchain design, moreso than anything that revolves around traditional databases if we're considering a very very long-term game.
Maximizing rewards through whatever means, even the most lazy via curation trail is perfectly fine. There just needs to be checks and balances in the economy (as proposed in the link above) so it can at least benefit Steem as a whole over time. Even the most hardworking people will be lazy at some point, or lazy in certain dimensions. Or whatever, lazy is not really the point. We just need to design a environment or economy where lazy produces something good, like a working content discovery and rewards platform. Imagine if lazy autovoters are voting on crap stuff. Some "bribe" and deterrence from the change to 50/50, superlinear rewards, and downvote pool will likely change behavior or the "path of least resistance" to point to the good stuff that actually helps the platform.
Of course, a working economy means a positive feedback loop on the network, and that would necessitate improvement in part of reward beneficiaries as time goes on. It's the other way around at the moment, imo.
I appreciate your substantive and informed comment, even though I strongly disagree.
It's been tried, and through socks it happens alla time. Remember @mindhunter though? He's just gone after his ploy was revealed. The community disapproves of self voting, and for good reason. Why have rewards at all? To create incentive to produce quality content that markets Steem and potentiates capital gains for stakeholders. While curation rewards were instituted to further create incentive to do that, they don't amount to much for insubstantial stakeholders, who in general just ignore them as a reason to upvote.
Curation rewards thus aren't any incentive for the majority of votes. For those with substantial stake, curation rewards are the end - not curation. Votes cast to attain curation rewards by those folks are cast without regard to content quality at all - contrary to the purpose of curation rewards - but solely and strategically to gain rewards.
Until vote bots arose self votes and similar mechanisms were roundly criticized as simple profiteering (and that censure has now included votebots), that at best did not create incentive to come here and buy some Steem and drive the price up. That's a good reason. So, let's admit that curation rewards don't work for the purpose they were instituted to achieve, and go on. @edicted proposed giving authors a slider, so they could set curation rewards to whatever they wanted, and despite my initial advocacy for eliminating curation rewards completely (as simply another vector for extracting rent with stake) I agree this is a better solution, as it becomes a means of attracting votes by letting voters attain to the rewards themselves - eliminating bidbots and enabling authors to promote their posts by eschewing rewards to the degree they are willing to.
As my goal for Steem is nothing short of world dominance, I want to see investors acting to create capital gains, and float every boat. Profiteering is contrary to that, despite lolbertarian freedom to do what one wants with one's stake. It isn't wise to drain the blood from a barnyard animal you'd like to sell at market for a good price, and that is analogous to profiteering and extracting rewards from the platform when you'd like to see Steem generate capital gains. Plus, it's gross, and the community does seem to dislike it.
Instead let's consider mechanisms that allow substantial stakeholders to get dividends by delegating to development projects that potentiate capital gains. Let's also limit potential rewards on posts, to eliminate that vector as suitable for profiteering. Huey Long proposed that no one should live on less than 3% of median income, nor attain to more than 300%, and I reckon that's not going to impact actual content quality negatively, as that's a significant range that allows incentive to be exerted, while also making bidbots useless for folks that abuse them just for rewards. Now, Long proposed that when he was very popular and no little ferment was ongoing in the US, and got assassinated for his trouble. I'd prefer not to get shot.
The rewards pool has been gamed to the point that Steem is suffering from poor enough optics that we underperform the market. Tweaking curation rewards isn't going to fix the problem of profiteering, as you acknowledge, and simply eliminating curation rewards won't either. Creating a vector for dividends from delegating to development projects, and limiting the extractive potential of votebots does make it possible to decrease financial incentive to abuse curation for profiteering, and enabling dividends from delegation presents a mechanism that will drive capital gains. Maximizing rewards at any cost isn't wise. You point this out:
Maximizing rewards for improving development and driving capital gains is what actual investors should want. It sure is what the market wants to see, as well as most everyone on Steem today. If you got this far through my extemporaneous comment, I am grateful.
Thanks!
50/50 alone isnt that effective, from my pov the fix would need other measures as per linked in my comment above. It should be thought of as a chord to play and wouldnt sound as nice if we just play one note. If curation rewards aren’t important, then 100% author rewards would just cause more to self-vote and is the equivalent of 100% curation rewards as I’ve demonstrated above. I’ll just copy and paste trafalgar’s comment on it:-
Hi
I know you have proposed changing the author/curator split before, as the first step in changing the economical model here on Steemit. I think you have the knowledge and/or connections to people who could execute my proposed solution to this problem, so I hope you don’t mind me sharing it with you here.
I think solution to this issue, at least a theoretic one, can be accomplished by using partially existing infrastructure and rules, and also taking advantage of an existing capability in Steemit code, which would allow people to choose to change this split themselves.
After I read this post, I studied some of the existing graphic interfaces and I found that some of the existing sharing features on Steem-plus and some other graphic user interfaces on other platforms allow people to change the sharing of rewards on their specific posts to 50/50 percentage of the authors rewards with a single named beneficiary.
Since the number of beneficiaries and the way the term beneficiaries is defined is written into the code underlying the graphic user interface, it is in theory possible to redefine beneficiary in other terms, such as beneficiary equals user who comments on my post or beneficiary equals user who upvotes my post. After that the code would define the math formula or algorithm which determines the amount paid to this newly defined “beneficiary”. Most developers would use the existing code found in the Git Hub library for this algorithm and not rewrite that portion of the code.
I would suggest incentivizing a developer with JavaScript JS experience to write a code modifying one of these interfaces.
In fact, it would be interesting to find out if a developer has already worked on some code to achieve this goal, i.e. a way to change the author/curator split and the code is stored on someone’s Github site.
The final pice of such a code would connect to Steemconnect similarly as we do now when defining interactions between our Posting authority and the Steem Blockchain and especiallywhen defining interactions between our wallet and the Steem Blockchain.
I think that in theory this could be done, and it would not require special permissions from Steemit, inc, as it requires only user granted permissions to change the split for an individual user.
I hope I have summarized the problem correctly and explained my proposal clearly. If not please contact me.
@shortsegments
Voting no here, as I have no way to log into the poll there without giving a third party my key.
100% this.
For the record, I also vote no to a curation/author split change. While that might be a big deal to a very small number of people who are active on the platform and really understand how it all works, I'm pretty sure it's not the reason why most people don't know about Steem and don't invest in it or use it. I think we should focus our very limited blockchain development resources on things that solve the latter problems.
Umm, I could log in using keychain.
Ah that's fantastic! I was just clicking login and getting sent to SteemConnect. I didn't see the little message about being able to vote with Keychain! They should definitely add that option when you click login, but still glad to see the progress. Thank you for letting me know!
Yeah, Keychain support landed with a
shortest time/effortto catch up with the steem alliance poll. So, Keychain is not a replacement for the SC yet, in the dPoll authentication system. Its usable only for voting now.You beat me to it 😉❤️
score!! :P
Doesn't work on my browser. I tried.
damn. fixed it for me. @eonwarped? Any other ideas?
Agreed. I've wanted a return to 50/50 curation (and n2) ever since they changed; but the time, trauma and effort to switch back now just don't justify it.
We get to 500K active daily users and curation is going to get worthwhile again anyway.
I disagree. Everybody knows economics is broken, and partly a reason that drives people away. I think it is the most important issue that deserves dev resources and attention.
Giving 50/50 at least gives a fair chance to encourage use of organic voting and attarct more power ups.
This may divert some votes to authors for free rather than selling.
If you have noticed as soon as you power up bidbots send you memos with advertising their services and trying to get you use your sp for selling votes.
If you compare 25% return to almost 100%, which would you choose? 50/50 at least improves odds in favor of organic voting.
I don't expect 50/50 to work but I'm in favor of trying things out. However we don't really 'try something out' when we hard fork, we end up committing to that change because changing back would be another hard fork and a whole bunch of work just to get us back where we were.
We need some kind of trial period with a rollback at the end. That way we only continue with the new economics if we specifically elect to.
It is just so difficult to get everybody agree on something, especially the high stakeholders.
I agree with everything with all that, but I still vote yes myself. I see it as a distribution issue that can hurt Steem down the line if the token circulates among vote sellers and self upvoters since doing that is 3x more profitable in Steem ROI. But you are right, it doesn't matter much right now and isn't the reason a lot of people are not here, we need to build cool shit for that to happen.
No amount of tweaking the reward system algorithm will change that. If we change the curation reward percentage then the vote selling services / self upvoters will simply adjust how they work to take advantage of the new model.
In my opinion the best way to solve these issues is to fix the issues with downvoting. The cool part about Steem is the ability to crowdsource the rewards for content. Since downvoting is so heavily disincentivized currently, it's almost non-existent, which means it's not possible to have a true wisdom of the crowd effect.
Downvoting needs to exactly mirror upvoting for this to have a chance at working, meaning there needs to be a separate and equal voting mana pool for downvoting AND there must be equal but opposite curation rewards for downvoting as well.
Im glad to see someone a bit more reputable then myself is putting this forward.
The problem here is that those that are for 50/50 have a overly optimistic view of the outcome. No one for one second is even willing to consider the fact that vote selling services will simply adjust.
Not only am i against this proposal, i fear it. Imo, Its probably the worst idea with the biggest support right now.
STEEM community size and retention are in direct correlation to the STEEM price meaning that if you cut author earnings you can expect a lot of content creators to leave and user numbers drop off. Assuming that vote sellers that are completely uninterested in curating will suddenly start curating after the vote selling services adjust is completely unrealistic.
The only time a cut in author earnings should be encouraged is if it leads to increase in price of STEEM. For that very reason im advocating for the cut to happen after the @blocktrades DAO is live and the inflation to be used to fund projects.
Instead of giving a few curators more money and fixing nothing, i think this is the proper path to take that would have a much greater positive effect.
I absolutely agree with your reasoning here, except in the DAO. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean, but I understood that author rewards are going to be redirected (as inflation, prior to being filtered out via upvotes) in part to the DAO.
This amounts to a tax, and the creation of a central taxing authority, which equates to a form of involuntary government. I'm agin' it. I'd be happy to pick and choose developments or individual devs to support, with upvotes, beneficiary rewards, or any voluntary mechanism.
Please clarify if I have misunderstood.
Also, @edicted recently posted regarding making curation rewards a slider chosen by authors, who could set curation to 100% if they so chose, or at any level they want. I'm fully in favor of this, as it empower individuals to make that decision - which is the way a decentralized blockchain should work IMHO.
Thanks for summing this up. I've had a very similar view on the proposal ever since it came up and none of the arguments so far have been able to convince me.
There's a lot broken about the platform, but I also don't think the 50/50 will improve it, it has potential to make it worse.
What do we want to achieve? We want quality content to be created, made visible and easily consumable for users so that they are motivating to stay on the platform and engage with it. Would we want to distinguish between certain types of content? Sure. Would we want to incentivize creating long-living content (which probably is more work and therefore bears higher opportunity cost)? I would think so. Will there be bots exploiting any system we set up? Most definitely.
With 50/50, no more quality content will be produced (less incentive may even mean less of it). Will curators looking for rewards vote for quality content or the content that is most likely to receive large votes after they voted? Is that different from what it is now? Hard to imagine.
Posted using Partiko Android
Indeed, my proposal for the structure of the coming SteemAlliance Foundation was based on evergreen voting for content, including development proposals, which can be withdrawn at the sole option of the stakeholder.
I see 50/50 mandatory curation as simply increasing the rentier income extractable from the various mechanisms extant and used for that purpose, none of which actually create incentive to produce quality content. They rather degrade it, and the optics are terrible.
Actual investors with substantial stake would be railing against this proposed increase in profiteering, because it will only decrease upwards pressure on Steem price, and make capital gains even less likely than they are now.
it is all about the culture . If there is a disaster like an earthquake happen, most country will immediately go riot or looting.
Yet in Japan , the citizen line up and behave properly.
If you left your bicycle unlock , you can bet it will go missing immediately in most country but in japan , it will stay there most of the time.
As you can say, it is all about the mindset or culture .
Just because I'm touchy, I'd like to point out that where I live, when floods or something happens, my neighbors and I head out and see if we can help our neighbors. I often don't even lock the door to my house.
What may be a national culture in Japan is much more regional in America. The 'flyover' parts are better folks.
Ok then Downvote Services pop up and the Steem Blockchain will sucks. So vote seller earn twice. One time with upvote and another time with downvote.
That's exactly why @yabapmatt's proposed positive curation reward for downvoting cannot work, as two equal votes, one up and one down, should negate all rewards for the content, but his proposal would extract curation rewards for the voters anyway.
Great point!
Hey, @yabapmatt.
I'm agreeing that tweaking the author/curator ratio won't really have the desired effect, for all the reasons you describe and probably more, so thanks for that.
I understand what you're saying about the downvoting, and in a world where people actually used downvotes properly, I might be with you there. I wonder how this rewards for downvoting doesn't end up being abused too, worse than downvoting is now. As it stands, two larger accounts decide they don't like each other and people who have nothing to do with it, but because one or the other curates a post or comment, all of a sudden, they're being hit, too, along with obnoxious comments where it's painfully obvious they simply don't care who gets it.
So, how would you go about securing the downvoting incentive system so that people aren't just downvoting to milk it, and/or taking folks who have nothing to do with the skirmish down with them? And where would this separate pool draw from?
As we see that folks are milking curation rewards as simply a mechanism for extracting rent from their stake, adding flags to the mechanisms they can do that with is certain to be similarly abused. Further, @freddio pointed out that voters mutually flagging and upvoting would both extract curation rewards, and this would bollux the rewards mechanism.
Presently, flagging is a negative curation reward, which then returns Steem to the pool (before it leaves the pool at all, yeah). @yabapmatt's proposal would instead reward those ostensibly curative flags and increase the draw on the inflation pool. In many cases today, in the flagwar you mention, up and down votes cancel each other out (or at least eliminate author and curation rewards altogether, since they cannot be negative (although.... )).
Even if there's a separate pool for flag rewards, it would still draw from the source: inflation. So a post that has been reduced to zero rewards for the author would still produce rewards for the voters - creating 100% curation rewards.
Whaddya say @yabapmatt?
Hey, @valued-customer.
First of all, I'm glad you and I see things the same way, though you have a better way of expressing it. Right or wrong, it's nice to see someone else express your own thoughts and concerns.
Secondly, it would be nice if all of this could be taken to the testnet, or wherever so that it could be tried out. It seems like we have here a bunch of different ideas, that in spite of what their motivations may be, are being expressed as "this is what will happen" when it's impossible for it all to result in all the ways each of us say it will. Someone has to be right, and someone wrong, and I'd like to prove it, once and for all.
I've read what edicted and you have both posted individually, and of the proposals that I've found so far, I like the idea of choosing your own curation rewards over getting rid of them entirely (though I do understand the reasoning and believe that we are not incentivizing curating quality content as is), but I would still want to hash it out, test it out, too.
The problem with all of this is, we tend to look at what it could do if people behave certain ways, while glossing over what they're most likely to do, and that's to either act in their own self interests, go the path of least resistance, or find some other way around it just for fun—to prove it can be done.
I don't think any of those scenarios are what we really want, if we can all avoid it.
You are exactly correct, and yet even the testnet doesn't accurately represent what people will do when their real funds are at risk. There's no better mechanism to do those tests, but tests cannot actually add money to, or take it out of your wallet and impact the rent you pay, the food you buy, or your actual financial situation.
What is obvious to me is what has been the result of people's financial interests, and that has been that folks most intent on their finances gain financial rewards most. As this process cascades, the other values society provides are increasingly diminished until those values no longer make the society of requisite value, and inevitably this fact then causes the economic value of that society to vanish as well, since it only has any value in society.
Piles of money in a cave have no value at all, absent a viable society to spend them in.
Sound economics isn't theoretical, but demonstrated by historical results. For millenia capital gains have proven to be sound incentive for investors, and yet Steem has continually been made less productive of capital gains and more productive of extractive profiteering, until we now observe the marketcap of Steem declining in a rising market. A student of economic history will not be unfamiliar with this circumstance, nor of what comes next if the problem continues to grow worse. Economic collapse is repeatedly revealed in the historical record.
The solution is to reverse those incentives for extractive rapine, and implement incentives to imbue the investment vehicle with growing value that produce capital gains. Doubling the extraction of curation rewards but hastens the decline. Only creating incentive that enables substantial stakeholders to attain profits by creating development that produce capital gains will reverse that decline.
Thanks!
This is true, but it still doesn't change the fact 50/50 makes curation much more attractive then 25/75, thus people would be more willing to delegate to curation bots that put in the effort to find content that will get a lot of upvotes and not delegate to bid bots. People who sell votes will take a hit because people only pay for the meat of the vote as curation is terrible with vote bots (ppl use bots on day old content etc.)
I agree with downvotes; I like your idea. Just fixing how downvotes work will at least help keep vote buyers/bid bots in check, so they don't just run rampant upvoting any content.
Might make it more attractive to curators who for the most part are racing to vote at the right time more than actually finding good content which is what true curation is .. it wont make it more attractive to content creators who see more of their effort going to more bots.
Bid bots are not going anywhere. Doesn't matter how much you tinker with curation splits. That just changes their income pattern.
Some people value the work they put into creating content. Those people will take a serious look at this platform and decide to move on.
It comes down to why curate when I can sell my vote for 3x the returns? Put curstors aside, investors who want to maximize their returns (the only curators that can make a diff must also be investors to lock up 6 figures in capital) - their options right now are sell their votes, delegate to projects and or curate. As we can clearly see from the last year, vote selling is the route most deep pocket SP resort to because it is by far the easiest and most effective way to make more SP. if curation made more SP, investors would actually do it. Someone said between me and two other whales, no one else even curates anymore. I wonder why.
Posted using Partiko iOS
Why not make it more attractive for substantial stakeholders to delegate to development projects? That is a positive pressure on price that will produce capital gains, instead of the negative pressure that curation rewards add to for votesellers.
This is short term thinking and why I don't think it matters.
If you can't see the value in not selling your vote don't ask someone else to either
Well, instead of hopelessly tweaking curation, why don't we tackle voteselling head on? Hain't heard no one taking that on since @ned spoke in Korea, and that's the actual problem.
If I got a broke leg, don't paint my toenails. Set my damn leg. The problem is profiteering, and curation rewards only add to the extractive produce of that, at least by lowering the cost of buying votes. @ned attested to the potential of oracles to eliminate that problem.
What are some other potential solutions?
The best example is Dtube .
Why do you think i still remain at youtube even when the payment is less? because i am pay at youtube base on view that serve with ads.
Here i am given only 7 days to cover my cost.
My video is not cheap to make.
The people here if so good, they would have upvote my video instead most of the time i get less than 1 USD.
I will be getting my second 100 USD soon next month or next 2 month time .
yes , it take 6 to 7 month to earn 100 USD but compare to Dtube , it is even worse. It is like working for free and get nothing back .
YouTube gives you ad rev not YouTube stock. Once steem becomes more popular and projects start sharing ad rev, the author will get the bulk of the ad share and curators will get none of it. Steem is for distribution and a second layer like SMT for actual rewards. Steem does not scale as a reward token, that is why SMTs are being made. If you had 10k site all using Steem it would be spread so thin barely any new content would get upvoted.
I agree with this.
NVM @emrebeyler thanks! :)
I just used keychain....
Awesome! I don't know why I don't see it..
It could be that you are already logged in and given it authority. Maybe revoke access and try again.
https://v2.steemconnect.com/revoke/@dpoll.xyz
Thanks this worked
Dpoll uses keychain now, just so everyone knows.
Voted for
I think @valued-customer and @krnel explained already very well, why they are against an increased curation reward. I agree with them.
I read the argument that other methods (vote selling, self-voting) would be much more profitable for (money) investors (don't forget that authors are also investors, time investors) than curating, thus curating should be made more attractive.
I just ask what a few times more profitable means if at the same time the STEEM value is more and more decreasing? I would love to earn less STEEM than now if only the STEEM value would increase again. And it will only increase if we manage to attract more users (who in the best case are contributing interesting content). Only then potential bigger investors (companies) could be sure to reach a big audience (for example when advetising their products).
It's hard enough for new users anyway: to create an account, have enough RC for upvoting and answering comments, earning any small amount with their posts. It would get even worse! And if then for example I would be one of the few upvoters of such a small new account I would get a big part of the author reward myself (as curation) instead to give it to the author ...
I really like to curate already NOW with only 25 % curation reward if I find good stuff (I don't care when I vote and who else did vote). I curate because I like what I see. I think the voting behavior of people who are curating this way wouldn't change much with higher curation reward. I guess only people who curate just for earning money, most of the time in an automated way (without reading what they curate) would be affected by this change.
Voted for
Voted for
I think it's important to first release SMTs and Communities to see how those developments impact things. Those are major improvements that represent paradigm changing additions to the Steem ecosystem and it is important to observe how they change this complex system.
Those features might not just solve the problem, may fundamentally shift the entire dynamics of the system such that the nature of the problem totally transforms, as does the optimal solution. Even if people still feel that curation is not optimized at that time, there is a very good chance that the solution they envision will be totally different once SMTs are out in the wild (or even just advanced Steem-Engine tokens). There is a non-negligible possibility that once SMTs are mature, people will want to remove curation rewards from the base layer entirely and raise that functionality to higher layers where they can be better customized and more rapidly adjusted.
I can see it making sense to remove curation rewards once SMT's become the backbone of how rewards are distributed. Steem, IMO, is not a rewards currency (right now it serves that purpose, but SMT scales much better) - however, it is a distribution currency. DPOS being a vote based system requires great distribution to succeed in the long term.
While removing curation rewards down the road, makes sense from an investor POV, not forcing me to curate in order to get my rightful claim to the inflation, I wonder if we do remove curation would we remove the upvote from the base layer altogether and just direct that to passive interest earned for powering up steem?
And what immediately comes to mind by removing curation is the need for a decentralized resource leasing market, because people need steem to transact on the blockchain, businesses will need to allocate resource credits to new users who don't have access to Steem. - I envision most Steem will be locked up, not being circulated (esp if we remove curation, distribution will decrease dramatically) but rather used to power apps. It may be hard to find steem, or at least the price to entry may be too high for someone just looking to join a steem powered site and not care about paying for the rights to vote on witnesses, ETC.
I do not see eliminating curation rewards as synonymous with eliminating curation itself. Is that what you meant?
Would you please have a look at my comment to @kevinwong above? I'd love to have your consideration of it to contemplate, and I also reckon it's better to see how SMTs, Oracles, and Communities change the dynamic.
Thanks!
But nobody knows when SMTs come. Or you have some Information about?
Voted for
Maybe add a slider for between 25% and 75% for a trial period until finalizing on the exact amount.
I like this idea
My thought is it will give time for curation groups and bot owners to figure it out and for others against it to come around or at least see the effects.
My hope is people will find themselves forced to set it high as bot owners, large voters and curation groups won't interact with people who arent setting it higher.
As for the people saying curation is not linear, I am not sure about the details, but it seems trade off there is also possible. For example the higher the curation on the post the more linear rewards become. Also, curation should be linked to the size of the vote and not post pay out, or no one will curate people outside their circle.
Posted using Partiko Android
The Slider Idea is really good.
The only people against the slider would be people who realize raising curation would actually work but find the current system to be in their advantage. I actually suspect that within a couple of weeks no one will be getting unpaid votes unless it's set at 50-50 and it will even take on the curation bots as people realize curating is more profitable than just delegating which is the current problem in my opinion.
Voted for
No, for several reasons. I believe bid bots would be capable of adjusting to the new dynamic. They would gain heavily from increased curation reward and be able to pay that forward to their delegators, making this change minimally effective in incentivizing better curation from higher SP individuals. Rather than improving authentic curating, I think a 50/50 split would instead incentivize more curation trails and schemes to maximize rewards. It would definitely slow the velocity with which Steem is distributing out to more accounts. Those who vote generously now would have to start actually tipping Steem instead of voting if they wanted to continue building minnows or their communities up at the same rate they currently are, which simply over complicates the system. Most importantly, I don’t think the current curation system is showing its true maturity and function yet due to Steem’s low userbase. If a post gets genuinely popular at present, it may get a few hundred organic upvotes. We have yet to see true virality and popularity on Steem. With broader distribution and more activity we’ll see curation truly shine as some folks will be the first to discover & promote content that goes on to millions of upvotes! That kind of curation reward won’t be bought or manufactured like in today’s small ecosystem.
edit
I also see a future and application for businesses and brands that purchase stake to reward their fans & customers by upvoting positive posts, reviews, comments, etc. In this scenario those users care more about their voting strength, not their curation kickback. I don’t want my vote based “marketing spend” hobbled by 33%.
Great input. I want to say that curation rewards for bid bots are terrible, as they have zero control over when they upvote, it is supply/demand driven. People use bidbots and upvotes after they have upvoted and usually people don't upvote after they see bidbots have upvoted. Point is curation rewards highly favor those who upvote before most others do.
Also, for low SP holders, the best thing you can do is try to accumulate more SP, so your upvote matters more. Having 50% instead of 25% of curation rewards allocate you the opportunity to earn more curation rewards if you are skilled in timing your upvotes. Meaning, lower SP holders now have more of a chance to increase the SP in their account by effective curating in a 50/50 system. Now, of course, if they self upvotes in this current system, that is the fastest way to get more SP. But I want to make it so curating gives the fastest SP.
I forgot to say businesses that want to reward their users, the best route is an SMT that they have full control over the split. Steem IMO is for distribution, second layer tokens like SMTs will be for rewarding users of each ap. In DPOS, distribution is very important. There should be two layers, one that distributes and a second layer that provides liquid rewards based off the apps popularity.
I’ll be interested in seeing how SMTs play out, but I think Steem itself has good viability here for small business. Sure if Coca Cola gets on Steem there will be a Coke coin, but someone porting over their Etsy shop won’t necessarily want to launch a token.
In a long term future I’d envision average social media users maybe making $50 - $100 USD a year on Steem. Generally not enough to care about linking bank accounts or setting up a fiat gateway for themselves. But they will spend it back to the brands/business/creators that voted it to them... possibly with some extra fiat from their own pocket to boot! It’s really the ultimate “self upvote” as savvy creators get back a chunk of the Steem they “voted away” while building brand loyalty & shopping conversions. I think Steem can handle this elegantly at its base layer.
SMTs don't have to be website specific. I agree that the owner of a shop won't launch a token, but that doesn't mean he will use STEEM. He will use whatever SMT is best for his business, or simply best as a currency. Since every SMT will have its own properties (for example 50/50 curation or not), I will believe the best SMTs will be naturally adopted through economic incentives.
Voted for
No because the Author does the work on the content. The whole argument of value on Steemit is based about the value of content,so I don't understand why you'd want to give half of the content writers pay to the audience. think 25% is a fair take for the audience & ensures money circulates back into the ecosystem. Oh, & I don't even post anymore so this doesn't affect me. The only problem that anyone should be worried about here, is how lame Steemit has become. Audiences are bored and so I don't even tell people about this place anymore, it smells of old socks & dungeon-dwelling programmers
Yeah... this seems imbalanced to me... 50/50... because clicking a mouse button means you should get more and the author less. Not all authors are the same or put in the same amount of work, but anyways, clicking a mouse button, or autovoting and doing nothing, needs to be kept in mind. If the voter likes the content, great, then they get what they wanted: content. Getting curation rewards is a nice extra when all you need to do is click a mouse button and nothing else, even not look at the content if you don't want to... ;) Just click a button to get some rewards back for that action... I like to look at the work being done, and creating content demands more work than clicking a mouse button.
Ya I don't disagree with that. I just point out why curate when I can sell my vote? If you want curation to happen at scale then you must incentive curators to upvote others and not incentive self upvoting. But maybe selling votes and self upvoting being top of the list isn't a bad idea, not saying know. If people are willing to buy votes then there is demand for the eyeballs here.
Changing to 50/50 would just get the vote buying to change how they charge for what % to 'ROI' give, while the delegators and owners would make even more than they do now. That's the outcome I see. Vote buying would continue,a s long as they adjusted and still provided a positive return for the amount of money sent out.
If people want to buy votes, it's not about eyeballs. It's about making more money. Thats why the bots calculate their votes based on money sent to give an ROI that's positive, not negative. Would people use ocdb if the return was negative? Would they use any of the many other bots? Maybe a few would, but that would be the people who are willing to actually spend money to get more eyeballs by reaching a high enough payout to get the eyeballs (like $100). Buying votes to get your post at $10, $20, or even $50 isn't getting anyone any more eyeballs. You have to spend a lot more. That's when it has an effect on the trending page. The majority who buy votes are doing it to get an ROI in a rigged voting scheme-platform where you can just pay to get more rewards. THAT is what makes Steem a sad joke imo.
And you curate, or anyone else, because you care to reward content you value, which is how the whole system is supposed to work (and in exchange you get rewards too, curation rewards). That's when the platform gains more value, when the content is rewarded because its valued by curators. Again, vote sellers just want to make easy money by doing 0-actions, if they cared about rewarding content they would be doing that. And vote buyers want more money because curators aren't curating them, they have to buy votes to get rewards, not earn them.
@ocdb is different from most other bots as it is not content agnostic. You need to be whitelisted by getting curated by the OCD curation team. Secondly, they can throw you out if you buy too large votes for low quality content. @ocdb is a both a curation and distribution bot. It is designed to distribute stake to authors who put in some effort to create decent content.
And with higher curation rewards I believe these projects will be more in demand.
@ocdb aims to give vote buyers 10% in profit. Delegators 90%. Because the bot gets paid liquid STEEM or SBD by vote buyers, it is already easy to adjust the share of profits.
@tarazkp wrote a post about his experiences on Smoke.io where he curates. Smoke is a Steem clone with 50/50 split.
belgium.netrelay.com
The link you shared leads to a site that looks like STEEMIT but is not. This could be seen as a phishing attempt. Please remove or change the link.
Vote selling platforms as it is already give 100% of the curation and take a small cut off the top. I don't see how they would earn more. Also, curation on bidbots or vote sellers is not good because it isn't timed well, it's used to vote on content that has already been widely upvoted. Most people don't upvote content after they seen it has been already boosted by bidbots, so they usually are some of the last upvotes meaning the tail end of the rewards.
And you're right, people curate because they care. But also, investors curate because they have to, if not they are missing out on Steem they could be earning. Right now as an investor I have to choose between delegating to projects, selling votes, self upvoting, curation (manual/auto). I believe most investors will choose to delegate to projects, but some just want to just get as much Steem ROI as possible because they believe Steem is undervalued.
Tell me of another crypto out there that lets you get more of it by simply click a button or autovoting without looking at the content? None. Yet, what they do get isn't enough, so the greed has them wanting more. Or doing the work of voting isn't desirable when they can do 0-work and still get more crypto by delegation and getting returns that way.
If only merit mattered, where the merit of earning rewards was based on actually evaluating content to reward it, proof of brain. And because you value it, you get a reward too for valuing what others have put forth. It was a great idea, but the greed of wanting more or wanting to get the most with the least work, has us where we are now.
Yeah, ppl can just upvote authors they know buy votes, and its just a badnwagon effect of piling on for curation rewards, regardless of content.
Would it be so bad if patronizing bid bots no longer becomes profitable?
50/50 doesnt solve the whole issue we're facing now but IMO its a good start.
I completely agree that bidbots and voteselling needs to be in our rearview mirror. I reckon a better mechanism for enabling stakeholders to get a return on their holdings exists, and @steemalliance and the DAO @blocktrades has completed should be that vehicle. We need to create a vector for dividends stakeholders can receive for delegating to development.
Instead of simply gaming the rewards pool and extracting ROI without contributing to the curation of valuable content, or development improving the investment vehicle (Steem), this would make their returns on their investments beneficial to all, by promoting capital gains - which has been the traditional incentive for investors since before we have historical records.
I have just posted a concept that needs community input to become a proposal, but the bones of that idea are in an extemporaneous comment in reply to @kevinwong above.
If you want to know what I think I made a video here with open discussion. https://steemit.com/dtube/@theycallmedan/ptb813uc
If a shop lowers the price on their product and ended up with more sales, is that a loss?
We're talking about Steem the blockchain not Steemit the website. Also, I believe @theycallmedan is doing this exactly because Steem has become "lame". the way things are now does not work and it's high time we explore this proposal that has been talked about for the pass 2-3 years.
No the User make the Work. If you have none read your Stuff is like worthless. Look in google if you are on Site 2. Its worthless. So people help you to share and reward your Voice have more Work. Think about if you real curate, you have to read a Ton of Stuff and Reward the best one.
IF you a a Author you want people to read your Stuff.
Voted for
Voted for