A Word of Caution for Poloniex Users and Traders

4 days ago
72 in cryptocurrency

poloniex_caution.jpg

The Poloniex Crytpocurrency Exchange continues to have serious problems with trading and withdrawals.


The Poloniex exchange has had many issues over the past week or so with volume and Distributed Denial-of-Service (DDoS) attacks. They have mostly been unable to keep up with the increase of trading, which is a huge concern for traders and the cryptocurrency markets in general, since Poloniex is currently one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges in the world. Just in the past two weeks, the exchange has had numerous ongoing issues with frozen coins, the inability to execute regular market orders, stop-losses, and margin trades, and there are currently long wait times for withdrawing currencies from the exchange, even with previously verified accounts.

Over the past 24 hours alone, STEEM-BTC trades were frozen on three different occasions. The first two trade stoppages were about 45 minutes long and the third lasted over 4 and a half hours! This is unfortunate, since Poloniex handles the most volume for STEEM/SBD trades by a large margin over other exchanges.


poloniex_STEEM_trades2_1.jpg


poloniex_STEEM_trades_1.jpg


This would be a cause for concern even if it was a one-time problem with the exchange. However, these have persisted for well over a week now with no end in sight. Poloniex has attributed this to a spike in volume and issued a press release on May 16th, but matters have yet to improve.

It should be noted that the stoppage of many trades has occurred just as markets begin to make large moves in either direction. It should be no surprise then that many users are outraged at the continued failures of the exchange. It's simply unacceptable for repeated failures like this to occur, especially when some trades in currency pairs can be executed while others cannot. There have even been many reported instances of some traders being able to trade while others cannot. If severe problems are occurring with the exchange, then all trades should probably be halted until the problems are corrected.

If these issues persist, I will be completely withdrawing from the Poloniex exchange.


I would encourage anyone who has funds at Poloniex to consider doing the same if things do not drastically improve very soon. Find an alternative exchange where you can trade and actually withdraw your money without severe delays. You do not want to be stuck with the inability to execute a trade or withdraw your money, especially if the exchange is under multiple attacks or cannot handle the load of increasing volume.

If you're using Poloniex, please proceed with caution.




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Image courtesy of @mynameisbrian


Follow me: @ats-david

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40
  ·  4 days ago

I have been on both Bittrex and Poloniex. The coins on both exchanges you can expect Bittrex to follow Poloniex. over the last couple of days I been watching the volume on both exchanges and Bittrex is now up to 15% of the volume of Poloniex.

The withdrawal fees may be higher but isn't it worth the peace of mind? At the time of this writing , I have been waiting on support at Poloniex for 11 days and my trading is halted because of it. I had one support ticket at Bittrex and it was answered within 4 hours and resolved. I regret moving back to Poloniex and when my support ticket is finally resolved, back to Bittrex i go.

Poloniex is in deep trouble and the only thing keeping it up is all the uneducated, non-researching noobs and their new money. The whales are relentless when the eternal lag occurs and they let their APIs drive down prices while all buy and sell functions are rendered useless. The Trollbox is never ending requests to mods to"escalate" tickets with no results and bans for those that raise their voices.

They are the leader in alt-cryptocurrencies exchanges and they are about to lose it as new exchanges have emerged. Poloniex is now the high school of exchanges and it is time to use others until Poloniex get their act together. This means a completely revamped interface and a staff to support 40,000+ users. 10 days to resolve a ticket is unacceptable in the crypto environment. High speed transactions require high speed support or it is worthless.

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40
  ·  2 days ago

I have a support ticket that is "Being Processed" for 13 days now. I hate the Trollbox but I go in there daily to have a mod "escalate" my ticket. During my Trollbox visits, I watch the endless FUD when the lags and attacks come. Read my editorial on my observations and findings about Poloniex. https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@joebitcoin/crypto-at-the-crossroads-poloniex-epic-fail-opinion-editorial

58
  ·  4 days ago

I have already came to that same conclusion. I have started using Bittrex almost exclusively and on occasion I dabble with cryptopia, but I have my own concerns with the latter.

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46
  ·  2 days ago

why do you guys love centralized exchanges? There is a DEX built on the same foundation as STEEM - Bitshares Dex.

57
  ·  4 days ago

I have opened up an account on Bittrex and will doing my purchases on there now on! Too many issues with polo

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72
  ·  4 days ago

I started on bittrex when its fee was 0.0002 BTC to withdraw.... I switched to Poloniex because their fee is only 0.0001 BTC to withdraw. However, it appears the BTC network partially uses fees to prioritize things. I've had a withdrawal take 22 hours recently. So I started using bittrex again but their fee is now 0.001 btc which is 10x the cost of poloniex. It is stuff like this that makes me hopeful that one day we won't need to use BTC as a middleman to convert to fiat if we need to make purchases with fiat.

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58
  ·  4 days ago

This is a valid point @dwinblood and one of the reasons I tell new traders/investors to move things other than BTC between exchanges. Coinbase is now allowing ETH and LTC sells and both of those are dramatically quicker.

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44
  ·  3 days ago

Yeah, but using Coinbase is like asking the big brother: "Please, spy on me"

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69
  ·  4 days ago

It only means that all cryptocurrencies are dependent to bitcoin. Without it, we could not cash out.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Apparently coinbase will let you use LTC or ETH instead of BTC and I believe they have a VISA you can charge up too. So there may be other options. Also what you described is NOW. That could quickly change and with the slowness I expect it eventually will.

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69
  ·  4 days ago

But the problem with coinbase is that they are not yet doing business towards our country, philippines.

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57
  ·  4 days ago

I am sure there will be more currency exchanges or another way to transact that is free or a smaller fraction than what either of these two charge. I do like the trollbox on polo though! Now following you @dwinblood.

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46
  ·  2 days ago

Bitshares DEX is 0% fee to withdraw
0.07 BTS fee to trade, that's $0.063 - and that is currently HIGH because of the increase in BTS (what like 500 or 600% since the beginning of this year? Fees get adjusted once a quarter. Bitshares was paying its witnesses plenty when fees were much lower.
Decentralized? Yes. Low trading fees? Yes. Withdrawal limits? No.
The only reason why we don't have volume is because "the uneducated" wont trade there... idk out of stupidity?

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44
  ·  2 days ago

Looks good, will try it out soon!

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44
  ·  4 days ago

Going to try this exchange.

68
  ·  4 days ago

I've switched back to Bittrex recently, because I was noticing how long it was taking for deposits to happen. I've had no problem with Bittrex.

45
  ·  3 days ago

I'm moving my BTCs to Bittrex. Fck Polo. I'm not able to verify since a month!

67
  ·  4 days ago

Eh, I've transferred some SBD minutes before I saw your post.

OK, now I have some bitcoin sitting at Poloniex. I will withdraw them next week.

What is the alternative? Bittrex?

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68
  ·  4 days ago

Bittrex is where I went. I think it's the second best option after Polo, but I would love to see other suggestions as well

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67
  ·  4 days ago

Cool. I was first at Bittrex but switched to Poloniex because the rates are usually slightly better. And the volume is much higher.

Bittrex is fine with me. I'll do my next transaction there.

Thanks for the reply.

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59
  ·  4 days ago

Volume may not be lower there for long, with all these people jumping ship from Poloniex. I've been slowly transferring my coins from there to Bittrex (and hardware wallets), as well.

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68
  ·  4 days ago

I found polo so much better for short term trading for those reasons. Sadly, they have to fix their stuff before I consider coming back.

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33
  ·  4 days ago

bittrex sin duda sin problemas, le haría falta es un stop limit para ser lo maximo

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46
  ·  2 days ago

Bitshares DEX - go to openledger.io , but this is just a gateway into the Bitshares ecosystem.

62
  ·  4 days ago

Bittrex is reliable - quite unlike Poloniex which is either utter garbage or a total scam...

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69
  ·  4 days ago

Polo was reliable for a long time too. The same thing can happen to bittrex as well if they aren't equipped to handle huge volume and mitigate repeated Ddos attacks. I hope bittrex is watching polo's struggles and making preparations to prevent these things from happening there.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Well bittrex fees are 10x more than Polo, but it does seem more reliable and faster.

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62
  ·  4 days ago

The stress is 10x less :)

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Well also... that is like $0.15 on Polo to wait 22 hours for your money (sometimes), and $1.50 on bittrex with almost no waiting.

Though if you use shapeshift.io that is like $6.00 which is high. Changelly.com looks like it might be worth using as it is just slightly under what bittrex charges.

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62
  ·  4 days ago

I don't do much trading either, but a full day to go through made me agitated and sweaty!

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69
  ·  4 days ago

I will be watching the situation and if polo gets their shit together, I will return. I prefer polo to bittrex by a significant margin.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

I don't do a lot of trading... so doesn't matter much to me. I prefer it's fees... they certainly seem to be the lowest.

52
  ·  4 days ago

Poloniex is as dirty as Maxine Waters!

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72
  ·  4 days ago

DAMN! That's dirty!

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62
  ·  4 days ago

37
  ·  4 days ago

I have had no trouble with withdrawals, but the lag time combined with margin trading is very troubling. Having traders receive margin calls and forced liquidations when the site is too laggy to trade is unacceptable. Wiping out half your traders accounts is not sustainable..

41
  ·  4 days ago

Wether bittrex or polo, both have its own issues. i find both expensive when it comes to withdrawals and the current btc price.

42
  ·  4 days ago

The sad part is how those problems of Poloniex not only affected the traders on their site. But this mess caused the whole bullrun to a halt multiple times..

We need a well functioning decentralized exchange everyone feels comfortable using. And we need it asap.

42
  ·  4 days ago

All correct!
I have been affected about 5 times (ish) during the last 4 weeks when Poloniex had an alt coin pumping insanely.. And suddenly the entire exchange freeze for 10-15 minutes.. And when it start to work .. the price is DOWN 20+% while NO ONE has been able to sell a single coin.
Its been Ripple, LBC and a few others.
After the last big "SCAM" (Friday) it had become so obvious that it's insider trading in cahoots with Poloniex themselves that i just moved all my coins out of there.
FYI. Poloniex is/has become a SCAM from the inside.
Im not the only one that think that.. Just read what i posted 3 days ago.
https://steemit.com/crypto/@andersokohler/berns-weiss-llp-investigates-potential-cases-concerning-recent-kraken-and-poloniex-ddos-attacks

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49
  ·  4 days ago

🍒 I also believe that Poloniex has become a Scam

72
  ·  4 days ago

I have been mostly using Poloniex for awhile now as their fee for withdrawals was only 0.0001 BTC. Yet that does me no good when it takes me 22 hours to withdraw the money. I switched back to bittrex for the moment, but man bittrex has really raised their fee. 0.001 BTC so they are ten times as expensive to withdraw as poloniex.

I may need to check into some alternatives... I mostly use them as a steem to fiat gateway when I need to buy things.

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68
  ·  4 days ago

That's why I used polo, it's fees are cheaper, until they figure out their issues I'm paying the higher fees.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

me too... I just tested it with blocktrades.us as well and that worked fast and was easy. Not sure its fees. It seems shapeshift.io might be worth checking too.

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68
  ·  4 days ago

I'll check out shapeshift, my husband did the math on blocktrades, the fees are very high compared to polo, which states its fee rate. That's one of the reasons I liked polo. I'll only do 70.00 sbd or more with blocktrades, I'm bothered I can't see the fees I pay for my exchange on blocktrades.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Yeah not showing the fees bothers me too. Right now though the fee is higher I'd use bittrex over polo.... taking 22 hours for polo to get the bitcoin transferred so I could use it. Sometimes for some deals 22 hours is too long... opportunity missed.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Have you compared them to the Blocktrades fees? I haven't withdrawn much from Poloniex yet, as I've only been using it for trading. But I do use Blocktrades for my withdrawals to fiat. I honestly haven't checked the rates lately because it's mostly just a convenience thing for me. It's really simple to use and you don't even have to log into anything.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

I've used blocktrades before, but I haven't tried using them for this. Whatever their fee is, it is likely less than bittrex.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

I should note that my fiat conversions are actually sent to a debit/credit card and not directly converted to dollars in a bank account.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Yeah I have a bitpay credit card... which I was sending steem/sbd to poloniex... trading for BTC.

Clicking add funds on bitpay and then withdrawing that amount of BTC + the fee to charge up my card.

I believe I may be able to just use steem -> btc sent directly to bitpay to make that more streamlined using something like blocktrades.

Main reason I used poloniex as it seemed to have the lowest fee, but that is not particularly beneficial at the moment.

That fee is not worth waiting 22 hours for my money.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

I believe I may be able to just use steem -> btc sent directly to bitpay to make that more streamlined using something like blocktrades.

Yeah, that's exactly how it works. You send the STEEM/SBD to Blocktrades, Blocktrades converts it to BTC, and then they send the BTC to your Bitpay card's address. Once you sign the transfer in your Steem wallet, it takes a few seconds for Bitpay to receive it...unless it's underpaid - then it takes up to 6 BTC confirmations, which is about 3.7 years, currently.

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70
  ·  4 days ago

I must have been lucky; no problems with trading Steem for ETH on Polo and sending that to Kraken to trade for Euros that go to bank account.
Using BTC for fund transfers is so 2017. Oh wait ...

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Yeah I just sent $61.50 worth of SBD to my bitpay card using blocktrades and it worked fine. Not sure what the fee was. It is not very clear about that.

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68
  ·  4 days ago

That's exactly what I'm doing!

68
  ·  4 days ago

Haters gonna hate. Polo's volume is only improving. To the m00n and beyond.
That said, I love my monies too much and withdrew all of it from Polo already.

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62
  ·  4 days ago

Swerve! Sweet answer.

42
  ·  4 days ago

hadware wallet is a solution to move bitcoin securely

41
  ·  4 days ago

Thanks for the warning!

42
  ·  4 days ago

Nice post

67
  ·  4 days ago

I've been noticing some of that flatlining... and feel thankful that I am (inadvertently) outside the chaos because Poloniex suspended all accounts of verified users based in Washington state... last month. I still use Poloniex "for reference" (because they have higher volume) but all my trading is on Bittrex now... no problems or bumps in the line, so far.

67
  ·  4 days ago

Moved to Bittrex a while back, I had to as a resident of WA state. I haven't had any issues there.

36
  ·  4 days ago

Good info, thanks! I get especially worried when an exchange can't get users cashed out. Liquidity between BTC and USD is currently a hidden problem. Most folks are more interested in buying in so it hasn't been too much of a concern since MtGOX but liquidity may become an issue as more merchants begin to accept BTC and seek a simple method and fair exchange rate for cashing in their earned BTC.

65
  ·  4 days ago
61
  ·  4 days ago

As the number of leaving users increases, it looks like Polo will eventually recover from problems of volume!

26
  ·  4 days ago

Thanks for the warning and something definitely to think about. I guess the only positive is when we have had these odd events the "Loan Offer" rates spike. But, like many of you have mentioned I'll probably pull some BTC and split it up with Bittrex.

Thanks again.

43
  ·  4 days ago

and I literally just signed up 3 minutes before you posted this!!!

48
  ·  4 days ago

woah. I hope that we'll make it! lol jk... the world keeps on turning, don't it!
Thanks for this rad post!

29
  ·  4 days ago

I have been on Poloniex's waiting list for over three months trying to get tier 3. I am still at $7000/ day withdrawal. I have now moved all coins over to www.BITTREX.com and couldn't be happier.

56
  ·  4 days ago

Didn't really consider this before but this made me think.. I will open up Bittrex soon and see how that goes! Thanks for the post.

69
  ·  4 days ago

Any feedback from Polo itself? What are there plans? Im sure they are looking forward to it since they are one of the largest exchange in the world and I think they will not just let it ruin their reputation. But even so, still, being cautious is the best way to do.

42
  ·  4 days ago

awsome write up... i have taken all my coins off and switched to bittrex and openledger. I hope no one losses to hard from all this.

60
  ·  4 days ago

I'm done as well. I just withdrew all of my STEEM to here and sent my BTS to Open Ledger. I still have some DASH/ETH/BTC/LTC there that I'm not sure what to do with.

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42
  ·  4 days ago

You should check out the jaxx wallet. it holds all your coins in one wallet.

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42
  ·  4 days ago

Will check out Jaxx immediately.
Thanks

54
  ·  4 days ago

Perfect, is the best information.
Great project.

41
  ·  4 days ago

Shapeshift is a great alternative! Try it out.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

What is their fee... I mostly use such services as a steem to fiat gateway... I convert to bitcoin and then transfer it to a visa card. If shapeshift can facilitate that easier and has a lower fee than bittrex (which it should as bittrex is currently expensive) then I am interested.

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41
  ·  4 days ago

With shapeshift you can convert coins to other coins (no fiat at the moment). They don't have any fees: "With ShapeShift, what you see is what you get. The exchange rate shown is exactly what you'll receive, minus only the "miner fee." There is no exchange fee, or service fee.

https://info.shapeshift.io/about

Hope this helps.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Yeah it likely works similar to blocktrades.us which I successfully just test used instead of bittrex or poloniex and it worked.

My bitpay credit card (my fiat source) you click ADD funds and say $50 and it tells you how many bitcoin to send and the address and it charges the card.

So blocktrades and shapeshift may speed things up. The miner fee is what I'll need to find out about.

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41
  ·  4 days ago

You can find out about miners fees in the link above in my previous message.

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49
  ·  4 days ago

🍒 I saw the fees list and the Bitcoin Miner Fee is: 0.004 BTC, I think it's cheaper to stay on Bittrex right?

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72
  ·  4 days ago

If the bitcoin miner fee is 0.004 BTC then yeah that is very expensive... that is almost $6 right now... bittrex is 0.001 which is $1.50 or more...

bittrex used to be 0.0002 and poloniex IS 0.0001 which is why a lot of us used it as that is only like a $0.15 fee, but 0.004 BTC fee is expensive...

Where was that? I won't be using anything that is that much I can spend a few minutes extra and use bittrex if I need to.

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49
  ·  4 days ago

On the link that @alex13 gave you https://info.shapeshift.io/about just scroll down a little bit and you will see a blue list and that's it

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Yeah that is super expensive. That's the highest fee I've seen. It is 4x higher than bittrex. It is 40x higher than Poloniex.

I checked changelly.com and that looks to be slightly lower than bittrex, about 8.5 times more than poloniex. Bittrex is 10x more than poloniex.

So fees so far cheapest to highest:
Poloniex -> Changelly.com -> Bittrex -> Shapeshift.io

No clue what blocktrades fees are and that bothers me.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

That about lists the fee at 0.004 BTC. That is easily over $6 right now and is 40x more than poloniex charges and 4x more than bittrex. That's too high, I won't be using it. :(

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41
  ·  4 days ago

I just recently published post about best options available to trade coins:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@alex13/shapeshift-vs-exchanges-best-options-to-buy-sell-exchange-your-coins

Basically it depends on the amount and specific pair of coins. In some cases Shapeshift provides better options.

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Don't see Steem and Steem Dollars on the chart. I am not a trader. I just use them to convert some of my posting earnings to fiat. For that shapeshift seems very expensive. Like going to an ATM that charges me over $6 (as that is low) for a withdrawal.

45
  ·  4 days ago

When you are on 2.5x margin and can't log back in.

65
  ·  4 days ago

The best part about the most recent 4.5 hour shit-show (which I got caught up in) was watching the volume numbers continue clicking (showing someone was trading) while the trading UI was completely frozen, which would imply bot trading was still happening.

I looking to move everything I have off Poloniex, but know nothing about Bitrex. I have heard good things, but I'd also heard good things about Poloniex in the beginning as well. Maybe a dumb question, but can I move my other altcoins (LISK, Dash, etc.) into Bitrex without having to exchange to Bitcoin, transfer and when it arrives at Bitrex at the end of next week (courtesy of Bitcoin blockchain bloat), exchange back to my altcoins?

44
  ·  4 days ago

They better get to work.

67
  ·  4 days ago

Personally, I haven't had any problems. Nonetheless, I am only withdrawing money.

56
  ·  4 days ago

Oh man! I would really like to withdraw my crypto from Poloniex but I won't be able to get to the computer in the nearest days and do it from the phone is simply unrealistic. Every such post makes me feel myself more sad and helpless...

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72
  ·  4 days ago

Well, there's no need to panic right now. Just keep an eye on things and be ready to withdraw if you need to. And be wary of the delays.

49
  ·  4 days ago

🍒 I've read other articles yesterday that report issues with Poloniex, what I noticed when trading last week is that when I sold 50 SBD the transaction was done for only 25 SBD, so they cannot be trusted anymore, unfortunetly :/

68
  ·  4 days ago

I've moved to another exchange, too much going on with polo for this newbie.

44
  ·  4 days ago

Hmm, you are making be afraid now. Was about to open an account on Poloniex, but after reading your post, I will wait till things get sorted out.....

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72
  ·  4 days ago

I don't think you need to fear anything at this point, just be careful about using the site right now. Trading has been unreliable and withdrawing funds has had long delays and additional verification. Just monitor the situation for now and see if it improves at all.

But it might be better to find an alternative, just to be safe, especially if you're trading or need to withdraw the money in a faster time frame.

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44
  ·  4 days ago

Thanks for the guidance.

67
  ·  4 days ago

Since two weeks I am only on bittrex. Thanks for the heads up.

72
  ·  4 days ago
Over the past 24 hours alone, STEEM-BTC trades were frozen on three different occasions. The first two trade stoppages were about 45 minutes long and the third lasted over 4 and a half hours!

During the attacks many users were outraged that Polo did not halt trading. Now users are outraged they are halting trading. #when-polo---going-down?

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72
  ·  4 days ago

I do not have those statistics. :)

69
  ·  4 days ago

I agree, while I don't suspect polo is in any financial trouble, they just aren't doing a good job at the moment and don't deserve my business.

72
  ·  4 days ago

It looks like changelly.com might work like blocktrades and has a fee slightly under bittrex. I calculated it to about 0.00085 BTC. Bittrex is 0.001 BTC. Poloniex is 0.0001 BTC Shapeshift.io is 0.004 BTC (expensive!)

42
  ·  4 days ago

Agree totally, I have also re3cently opened up an account with Bittrex initially to invest in coins that were not available on poloniex. I have also transfer some funds nearly 48 hours ago and still waiting for it to be process not sure if that is a general slow network problem.

46
  ·  3 days ago

#DEX DEX DEX
DEX DEX DEX
Come on chant with me.
We can make a song out of it and spur the revolution: decentralise everything!

68
  ·  3 days ago

Thank you @ats-david for the valuable information!

34
  ·  3 days ago

Since the ddos attacks im now a definite bittrex user. I will not keep my money on poloniex anymore.

62
  ·  3 days ago

They used to be the gold standard as far as how an exchange should run and every alt strived to get listed on Poloniex. Its sad to see such a promising exchange go downhill!

44
  ·  4 days ago

Thanks for the warning and updates. What exchange are you going to use instead of Poloniex?

63
  ·  3 days ago

Oh no ... just now that I had tapped to use it tell me to change ..... help!

35
  ·  3 days ago

I have accounts on multiple markets only do to the fact that no oen market trades all coins . polo has bin ok for me thus far but yesterday they closed with drawls or deposits of bcn! which kind of pissed me off i had so much of it. at least i can trade what i had.

44
  ·  2 days ago

Poloniex using their power for themself. When they says there is ddos attack, they trading themselves. Especially on xrp it happens.
I will advise bittrex for users. Its much more stable. Hopefully it will stays like that.

44
  ·  2 days ago

Ya i switched to Bittrex over a month ago and I also use Kraken or GDAX if I just want to trade Litecoin. They went down 3 times while I was on there and it cost me three times and I have a 3 strike rule. Bittrex interface could be better but I use the coinigy platform ( https://www.coinigy.com/?r=3aea8681 )so im setup to trade anywhere. I still watch Poloniex as an indicator but between there inept Mods and there Inept Servers I wouldn't trust them with a dime. Voted most likely to be the next Mt Gox IMHO.

41
  ·  2 days ago

The answer is, decentralised exchanges! added with the ability to talk cross chains... both very soon will be a reality in my view.

32
  ·  yesterday

I exclusive use coinbase because its local and insurer backed. But I have recently starting using Poloniex solely because it has access to more altcoins. While i have never had any problems besides the occasional lag when loading a page or new coin, i have read and heard personal accounts from many regarding countless issues and minimum support. I would not advise keeping a large amount of coin in polo, too many issues can arise and the issue becomes compounded when involving margin trading and coin loans. Be smart with your money always and don't rely on polo bailing you out, they wont!