RE: My new thought on something to say to pro-communist people...
The goal of government is to force rules upon people.
"Without capitalism as an economic system also immersed with it then it requires central planning."
-Can you prove that? Are you absolutely sure that the people that plan stuff can not be elected?
You misunderstood my line about "same can be said". You meant "I will be communist when I get to decide what to produce", then I said "same can be said about capitalism: I will be capitalist only when I am rich".
-Sure capitalism does not require it, it also doesn't produce really good stuff, look at all the stuff that breaks constantly all the junk. The way we use resources under capitalism is ineffective. Well it is very effective in terms of making money for someone.
" Because, I know that the proponents of communism and socialism would NOT want me as a central planner."
-that is just an assumption
"You cannot say the same thing about free market capitalism."
-Where is such free market? Every country has laws anti-monopoly services, sanctions and other stuff that control market.
Such places have existed only briefly in time. For you are correct. Government likes to force laws upon people. I will tell you those brief times in history have been some of the most productive and innovative times in history.
Oh and as to monopoly.
Communism and Socialism are the ultimate forms of monopoly. :)
Yes but it is not a private monopoly.
Yeah, and in practice it actually ends up being worse. You also say that like I think "private" is bad. I don't.
I do believe I have the rights to the means of production if I develop that means, devise it, and put my own time in. I can then ask people if they are willing to contract to operate part of that for me. We can negotiate that contract. Yet I cannot force them to take it. If they think it is their only choice then they likely are looking at life in a very limited perspective. It's not like I have them in a cage which the only way out of the cage is to work for me.
There is an entity that does that. Yet it is not private. ;)
Well you have no means of production so you have to work for someone that have them, building your own is possible but it would require resources and money, while you are looking for a job to get money. It may not be the only choice but it is limited, people used to work for 12 hours a day was it their choice?
You are very fixated on cherry picking. In a voluntary society I don't HAVE to do anything. I choose to do things. I can also choose to live, or to die. I can choose what I am willing to do for what, and those choices are none of your damn business. If one person and I make a contract that is between me and them and you sticking your nose into it is wrong. It has zero to do with you. Simple. Mind your own business, make your own choices, don't fucking try to make mine.
And yes I am being passionate.
If you and a bunch of people want to build a communist society. Go for it.
Just don't force others to do what you want. You can voluntarily try whatever you want.
As soon as you need to force others to achieve your goals then you are a force of evil.
You want to physically fight over it (Hypothetically speaking to all would be communists, socialists)? Bring it on. I'll die before I become a slave.
Voluntary contracts are not slavery.
Involuntary (aka force) is.
You don't have to, do that but choice between working for capitalist or dying is a choice or an ultimatum? We are all in a society, not a cave with two people, so in one way or the other your deal will affect lives of others, while one has money and power others are trying to survive, that is how free they are. And ofcourse it is not your concern.
If you and a bunch of people want to build a communist society. Go for it.
-well the problem is that there is other society that likes to force people do the opposite
Just don't force others to do what you want. You can voluntarily try whatever you want.
-governments duty is to control and force people otherwise how is it a government
As soon as you need to force others to achieve your goals then you are a force of evil.
-why is that?
I'll die before I become a slave.
Voluntary contracts are not slavery.
Involuntary (aka force) is.
-can you give an example?
If YOU cannot make a choice but MUST comply then you have a MASTER.
I shouldn't need to give you an example, the concept is very simple.
Then it should not be hard to make an example
I do also want to clarify. I acknowledge my bias. That doesn't mean I am close minded. Yet it does mean that unless you tell me something new that I haven't already heard before then I am not going to suddenly change my mind. Right now as far as me and debating this you sound like a broken record and are trotting out the same things I hear time and time again. You haven't recommended a book for me to read yet, so you at least have avoided that cliche.
I read quite a few books people recommended and it was their logical fallacy laden appeal to emotion approach in the books that often quickly lead to my seriously considering the person in the book as an "authority" ending. Yet, I still read.
So am I open minded? Yep. Yet that doesn't mean repeating the same things over and over is going to suddenly change my mind. So far you are repeating the same "drivel" (my opinion) that I've had stated to me many times. :)
I didn't consider it drivel initially. In fact, my parents are both hippies. I grew up under "Peace, Love, and Flower Power". So the SOUND GOOD, FEEL GOOD ideas inherent in the presentation of communism and socialism were appealing to me when I was very young.
I like to think. I argue with myself regularly. Have conversations, debate, etc.
I study history. I make mistakes. I am often wrong.
Yet, repetition and quantity of people telling me a thing are not logical reasons to support something.
You need to write better if you want to convince me, not just "well people aren't gods", but why exactly is it so hard to do that you think it is impossible.
You need to read better. I already explained why. People CANNOT handle the complexities of the system and the vast quantity of interacting variables in our world today, which is only accelerating in complexity.
If you can't understand that then perhaps do some reading up on Stochastics. It will give you some of the necessary information that if you think could be explained simply here then you are deluded.