Epic Link Between Cleaning And Statism (Revisited)
So the other day I observed that cleaning brings out the inner statist in people.
It's not by accident that this happens, and I want to elaborate a little.
And I'll give one more anecdote:
Once I lived with this guy who created a chores rotation for the house. Fair enough, sort of. Except I started spending less and less time at the house, to the point of basically not ever using dishes. (So doing everyone's dishes 1 week out of 4 became really annoying, not to mention that I was generally cleaning much more than using.) And he wasn't willing to tweak the system into something more reasonable.
(The person who owned the house, who also lived with us, was essentially on my side and basically gave me the green light to slack, but he didn't want to deal with talking this guy off of the system.)
Eventually there came a point where I actually just wasn't home for a couple days, and the dishes piled up (and it didn't seem like a reasonable thought that I should drop what I was doing in case people at home cooked a 5-course meal), and all hell broke loose and I was the mortal enemy of his. Because of household tasks.
When people behave this way it isn't actually that dishes and the way the floor looks etc is so outrageously important to them.
(Some people are legitimately neat freaks, but that doesn't mean they get hot and bothered over it or behave irrationally. They're not who I'm talking about.)
What's important to these people is the system itself and having this sense of control.
They're not consciously aware of it, but that's actually what's driving them.
Because you always need an excuse, right?
If you tried to say "alright folks-- bedtime is gonna be at 8pm, we're all gonna eat tuna fish, and nobody showers on Wednesday", then everyone thinks you're a weirdo and they don't listen.
But chores are the avenue where you can get away with it. People won't disagree or question any underlying imbalances, because they don't want to be perceived as not wanting the clean house.
So to whatever extent someone has a tendency to be statist (to want to control and steer the behavior of other people), chores and cleaning are going to be naturally attractive to them. So they'll develop an interest in this.
It's basically like the microcosm version of "help the poor" or "save the planet". They don't actually care about these things. They care about their power mechanism, and these are the justifications for it that work best.
So in other words, it isn't that being weird and bossy is the means to an end goal of having a clean house -- it is the end goal, and the clean house is their way of rationalizing it.
wagon/horse
That was an interesting anecdote. So the person is a statist? Anyways, the desire for control is what you're getting at. I see that. It's a good story to show how fair responsibility was not being applied, it was just blind rules being applied without context of the reality. The rules were blocking their ability to see the situation accurately and fairly.
Well, he's a cop, so he's pretty much as statist as it gets lol.
I feel like some people can be "statists" in so far as they believe in government, perhaps just because they haven't thought about it much or don't really care, but are perfectly good people. And other people are truly statist in their behavior. He was the latter for sure.
Right! The rules were no way a mechanism to apply fair responsibility. They were just about him and whatever was going on in his head. (under the illusion of it being about fairness.)
I was going to post link the video but I couldn't find it. But Jordan Peterson said something about whenever he walks into a room that is too clean he knows there is a tyrant behind it. He was talking about the type of room that is absolutely perfect without anything out of place. He psychologically profiles these people in that way.
I think your post nails it. Nobody wants to be perceived as a slob. The person sets a trap, knowing the person won't oppose it, thereby setting a precedent that he is a lawmaker. It's at that point that you should move out at the end of the lease term.
Ya bro; this is starting to get more obvious to me, give my situation and all. It's like there's this need to always be in control. For some people it's even more heightened, and even if it starts with okay let's keep things clean, at the end it stops being about the cleanliness.
Exactly! It's sort of like sublimation, I guess; where you find a socially acceptable activity to mask your neurosis, haha. Freud would be proud of em!
Ya, they don't plan it out or anything, they just end up being interested in this stuff.
But if they were honest and totally aware of themselves they'd realize "hmm, you know, I actually don't care that much whether the counter is a little dirty"
I have a lot of respect for people who like things to be clean and tidy and just lead by example. (Like I sort of said in the post, the people who get preachy usually aren't even especially neat, in my experience.)
That's an interesting observation. I can corroborate it with my own experience in that every time I've tried to implement some kind of chore regimen in my family (out of desperation to keep things somewhat clean and running smoothly without all the work falling on myself), it has been abandoned within a couple of weeks. Reason being, we are all too spontaneous and I can't stand telling people what to do, lol. So even though it might have been helpful to have some kind of system everyone participated in, my inner anarchist prevented me from imposing it. I can easily see how an authoritarian would have a field day forcing all of the family to participate in a system that ultimately didn't work because regulations usually only serve to complicate things.
Haha right..
And I do think a chores rotation can be fine. Basically, if everyone agrees to it. Like, in that case it's just putting a structure around it, and it's an easy way to keep track, which I think for some people is just helpful.. like, you want to pull your weight, but sometimes forget and aren't sure how often etc
To me you aren't really trying to be the "boss" in that case, you're just facilitating the structure.
But ya, I could see it easily breaking down, and it just making more sense to do things in flow as you feel like it.
I feel like at the end of the day, when the chores system is fair to everyone and people stick to it and whatnot, you'd probably find that just trusting each other outside of the system would generally work fine too. So you don't really need a system. But, if the goal is to unfairly impose yourself on others, then the system becomes vital.
(So the system is more useful for bad than for good, but there's probably some small window to use it positively.)
Haha, again :D
Totally agree with you, as you know bruh.
But heres another thought; maybe they do not even be the cleanest persons after all but they are just lazy and pretend to be so extremely clean although they only want others to do their work (wash their dishes...) cause they know that they are the real "dirt messies". Or their life is very boring and they want to "solve" this problem by telling others what to do or something like that.
However, those cleaning freaks are hilarious. There are certain limits.
they're definitely not clean!! In my experience they're somewhere around average or below average.
😀
funny theory! I think it's probably more about wanting the structure and to have control and stuff.. like it all happens subconsciously, and I don't think their subconscious mind cares about getting them off the hook for a few chores.. I think it's deeper than that. But ya, being lazy and making it so it favors them might be a small part of it.
Kk haha - what the...!? That is way too ridiculous. :D
Yea, that is probably true too. All those people who "really need attention" or just once wanna have a little power - so pathetic.
I was not hundred percent serious with the previous comment but yes, a little bit of truth might be in it. (;
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Thanks @shifaadi, that's a strong statement!!
Thank you for expressing my words friends, but you are more powerful than me, my friend.
It almost sounds like this guy has become a bully. The good thing about sharing apartment with roommates is that you can always move out and find something else. I wouldn’t live with this guy under one roof at all. You should be able to go home and relax and not to expect some sort of drama.
Ya! This is a long time ago btw. (I've since gotten better about who I live with lol.) And.. probably not too surprising.. he's a police officer! lol. At the time he was trying to be hired by the police force, and hadn't been accepted yet. So it was like a double whammy of a cop's mentality plus the frustration of not being hired and accepted by them yet.
That explains a lot.
I see, I’m pretty sure you are staying away from this guy since then.
Ya! When he moved out he took all the toilet paper and tin foil and paper towels and whatnot. That was the last I ever heard of him lol.
It got to the point where he wouldn't even say hello to me or the owner guy. Like he walks in after work and you can say hi to him and just crickets, he ignores you and walks by.
The last thing you want is to have a stress where you live. You guys should have serious talk with this guy. If the owner is on your side why is he so afraid of this guy? No one is going to get hurt by talking to each other. It gets worse if you won’t talk.
Ya, definitely. This was a long time ago, and I mention it more for the anecdote and what you can learn from it. But ya, absolutely. I tried to talk but he wouldn't budge on the rules lol. I think the owner basically felt like he knew the guy was irrational and attached to his system and just didn't want to bother with him. It was probably like he didn't want to cause friction and need to find a new roommate.
But ya, I think he probably should have put his foot down and rethought the cleaning policy.
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