Washington's Measle Outbreak and Vaccinations
In Washington, we are having a raging debate on vaccinations due to a current measles outbreak. I actually think it is kind of amusing as nearly everyone my age had the Measles and I clearly remember nearly my entire school getting the Measles when I was in the 5th grade. I don't remember any panic or upset. There were 0 deaths and I don't remember a single person being hospitalized.
I am a Measles survivor as are both my siblings. We also had the Chicken Pox and the Mumps,. Such dangerous times we lived in.
I do realize some people have side effects from the Measles, but most do not. Some people also suffer from the side effects of vaccinations.
There are medical risks involved with vaccinations.
There are medical risks involved in not getting vaccinations.
Most people will do just fine with vaccinations.
Most people will do just fine with getting the Measles.
No child owes any other child immunity.
Not all vaccinations are the same, not all diseases are the same and not all immune systems are the same. Every parent should review the risks and rewards of each vaccination as a separate medical decision. It's simply common sense.
If you want your child to have better immunity, ask the manufacturer to make a better product.
These should be private medical decisions, not open for debate.
I also find it amazing how many people rally for Freedom of Medical Decisions for women but want to deny parents options in vaccinations. Seems like an obvious disconnect to me.
I am not an anti-vaxxer. I am for private medical decisions.
What are your thoughts?
It's started here in Australia. No preschool for unvaccinated kids.
Naturally;
Anti-vax parents still need to pay taxes to subsidise childcare for other kids.
Anti-vax parents are not permitted to set up their own unsubsidised childcare centres.
This is the problem with middle class welfare churn. People think its a pointless exercise when families get back the tax they pay; but that entirely misses the real purpose.
It takes the money from everyone, and gives it back to the obedient ones. Its all about control.
I disagree completely. This assumes that making the private decision not to have a vaccine only impose the risks associated onto the private person making that decision. However, with the way herd immunity works, once a sufficient number of individuals choose not to take the vaccine, the risk is imposed also on people they surround themselves with.
I support any individual's right to make decisions that affect their own wellbeing etc. I do not support anyone's "right" to make decisions that impose a cost, risk or damage on me or their neighbors. To state it as clearly as I can: If anyone were to tell me that they refuse to vaccinate themselves or their children for whatever reason they may have, I judge them the exact same way as I would someone who says that they will drunk-drive in an area they know other people's children are playing. Both impose a risk on other people, and their children, for a silly reason.
Well, that is an interesting and entitled point of view. It is very clear there are still many question about the effectiveness of vaccinations.
I feel quite strongly that I am not a "herd animal", but a free human being. If you would like a better, safer "herd" I suggest you ask the manufacturer to make a better product.
Nearly everything we do from having a cocktail to sexual activity can have an impact on Human Safety. I respect you, but I do not respect the argument at all. Sounds like something you have been fed and believed without question.
Again, those acts would only imply a risk on the individual(s) choosing to drink/have unsafe sex etc. I do think that individuals should be able to make such decisions without a nanny-state regulating what you and I can do to ourselves or together with others who choose to participate. But the moral changes the moment the damage is not done to you, but to others around you.
Society does not owe you immunity or safety.
I never implied that. But if I belong to a community who have chosen to invest in obtaining immunity and safety for ourselves, and someone else poses a direct threat to it, then that is a form of vandalism. My conclusion would be that the others should either find another community to go to, or respect the scientific, medical and financial effort made by our community that they wish to be a part of.
I'm sure you are aware that there are no studies of our current vaccination schedule and I certainly hope that as someone who has an understanding of Science and the process involved that you aren't asking for a society that isn't even allowed to review and question that data.
That would be very unscientific.
Because of the globalized nature of the world and urbanization we need vaccines. I believe if you don't get them you shouldn't be allowed in certain places where everyone must have them. No vaccination no visiting patients in the hospital, etc.
There are risks but they are ridiculously small compared to the diseases they protect against. I had scarlet fever as a child, I also had chicken pox. I don't think my parents would have forgiven themsleves if there were vaccines avaliable and they said no thanks. I even get the flu shots. I know lots of people who got the flu and 0 who had a side effect from the shot other than an ouchie. Basically it's medical science and statistics vs ignorance and misinformation.
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I am glad they are available and my own children were selectively vaccinated with the safest vaccinations that protect against the most common disease.
However, now there are so many that at some point we are going to have to let people pick and choose which ones to use.
I think it is just as fair to tell those with compromised immune systems to stay home as they would be prone to colds and other illnesses as well and those who are vaccinated should have nothing to fear.
All the drama and debate over this is really over done.
I definetly think we should choose before injecting. They are getting safer and testing is thorough. I think some anti-vaxxers are paranoid and scientific evidence is lacking for their claims. It doesn't mean it should be dismissed.
The terrible epidemics of early 20th century and before are very distant memories most were improved with sanitation and not vaccines.
People with compromised immune systems definitely can't expect me to get vaccinated. I feel the same with allergues, too. Don't tell me I can't give my kid a peanutbutter sandwich.
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I don't think our views are that far off.
The ones I am generally against are for STIs or anything with hormones like birth control injections. DTaP-Hib-IPV is a good one. MMR not as important.
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After catching scarlet fever and chicken pox it's amazing you are not dead.
Are you sure you are not dead?
You should get some more flu shots. Lots more.
I had them at the same time. The case was severe enough to put me in the hospital for several weeks when I was 4 years old. Young immune systems can only handle so much punishment at a time. But yeah generally no big deal, until it is. The flu shot is controversial. I would never make my kids get one, but in my case, I make an informed decision and I will chance it.
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Measles back in the day before Big Pharma saw $$$$$$$$$$$
The human race survived thousands of years without vaccinations, I think we can continue to survive without them (unless we're devolving...)
Nobody ever does fine on any modern vaccinations - they may appear to, but in say 20 years when they are infertile they don't make the connection.
America didn't get the highest rates of autism, cancer, and infertility by accident !
It also has the highest rates of vaccinations, and measles outbreaks are no random accident...
Measles used to be great - I enjoyed it -another mild childhood disease and a week off school
All the more reason for people to review all the information available and make an educated choice.
On the graph above, for which no source was provided, diphteria vaccination is indicated to have been introduced in 1940 and 1950 when in reality effective immunisations campaigns started in the 1920s ( source https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/diphtheria https://www.vaccines.gov/diseases/diphtheria/index.html). This is particularly vicious, since the objective of those graphs is to "prove" that there is no correlation between vaccine introduction and reduction in death rate. Furthermore, why mention scarlet fever and typhoid fever death rates in a vaccination debate, when the disease can be treated by antibiotics? Those are just 2 things I noticed immediately, but to an uninformed eye this information seems pretty reliable. There are probably many more innacuracies in the graph above, but I'm not gonna waste my time looking for them.
This is the kind of disinformation that anti-vaxxers spread and then they pledge for letting people make "educated choices". Litterally any piece of evidence that doesn't fit their agenda is dismissed as part of a conspiracy, and yet they don't even bother to mention their sources.
It is a personal choice. No one owes the rest of the "herd" immunity.
I'm not an antivaxxor my children received the immunizations that protected them against diseases that were likely to do more harm than the vaccination. They were not vaccinated for those where the risks were close. Like... Measles.
None of the argument makes sense, I should have to vaccinate my kid so yours is safer... screw that. Ask the manufactors to make a vaccination that works better and is safer.
At the end of the day it is a decision of medical risk that no one has a right to make for anyone else.
So long as they don't become "educated" by reading wikipedia - they should rely on snopes :)
I think a lot of it is going to come down to "Who do you trust".
It is obvious that there is a lot of information out there on both sides.
This is why I think we should just push for Medical Freedom and allow each person to make their own decisions and read the pros and the cons.
The current argument that the safety of vaccinations shouldn't even be discussed is insanity. I'd like to start there.
I think the better question is...
" Do you trust someone who has been proven to lie incessantly for decades, and by lying makes billions of dollars, or do you trust people who make nothing, have their medical careers destroyed, and suffer great personal hardships by presenting alternative information..."
Does it make you stupid to trust a known liar?
Not necessarily , but I cant think of another word to use right now
How about "moron"?
I also find it amazing how many people rally for Freedom of Medical Decisions for women but want to deny parents options in vaccinations. << oh my gosh yes, this makes me so angry.
I feel the same way. Should be personal choice.
Probably 'cause I avoid vaccinations like the plague!
:) Haha, yeah... they are a little over-zealous on the whole topic these days for things with very little actual risk like Measles.
The only people that need to worry about the measles outbreak are those that have not had it, nor had the vaccine for it. Why the worry if the vaccines are so critical and vital that parents have had the decision to vaccinate taken away, how can there be a measles outbreak if all the kids are vaccinated and the vaccine works as advertised and protects against getting the measles?
Society is so messed up, yes women can decide to abort or keep the child if they keep the child then they get told they have to vaccinate it. If the childs teacher or some other nosy assed adult hears your child at age of 7 express a desire to be a boy, or a girl when they are the other then you need to start giving them shots. Yet that same child expresses a desire to be a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant, then the school seems to have no problem telling you and that child they can not be that because they do not have the IQ for such a job and should train to be a school custodian. Society has taken away the rights of the individual for the betterment of society, and we the people are the society, so we had better wake up and stand up for what is right.
Ohh, we've had a measles 'epidemic' for a few years over here... As vaccinations are not mandatory, authorities are practically hunting down poor people in rural communities to push vaccines on their children. Together with calls to make vaccines mandatory. Hopefully it won't get to that!
Yet, I bet most people survive just fine.
When there was an outbreak at my school in the 90s you weren't allowed back allowed in the school without being vaccinated. I got the MMR vaccine and I'm just fine, so were the other 2000 kids in my school and the other 20 000 kids in my suburb.
Spreading hysteria about vaccines is now causing outbreaks, so its not that far of a stretch to suggest you know, stronger measures. Like leper islands. I'm not saying shoot them, at least not yet, but keep them away from vaccinated, or normal, people.
I think my rights not to be exposed to people who chose to get preventable diseases need more respect too. I take a crowded train to work. My kids are in public schools. Maybe a scarlet letter type of public identification, I want to know who these people are.
Ha... Sounds like a strong opinion and an over-reaction. Measles really isn't that dangerous and if your own kids are vaccinated it shouldn't be a problem.
It seems many have lost all ability to be reasonable.