Flag Power
Rewards are broken
Those who follow me know, that I was campaigning for a change in the STEEM protocol. Ever since hardfork 18, I was for rolling back the changes made around Posting Rewards.
I got a good chunk of my witness votes, because of this stance.
As my witness career is coming to its end, I want to use the witness tags, while I still can.
Problems with n^2
I always had to admit that n^2is just a random constant.
Why not n^1.8 ?
I would have ultimately wanted the exponent to be a witness parameter.
Still, it would just be random number.
Since it was @ned himself, who pushed 'linear' rewards, there is no chance in hell, that it ever gets changed back.
At the end of the day, I want, that writing good posts and looking for these posts gets more rewards than writing shit posts and voting for those.
Flag Power
I was so upset about the situation, that I dismissed any other solution.
I did not even look at the proposals.
During Steemfest I talked to @kevinwong and @anyx about this.
@anyx explained his stance on the matter and the idea of a flag pool or a flag power.
The solution is more elegant than n^2, and it seems to have more support.
Furthermore, it does not go against @ned's idea, so we do not have to fight his ego.
I changed my stance and I now fully support this:
Give every account their own flag power, analogue to the current voting power.
This way, everybody can keep voting, botting or selfvoting like they are used to, but they can also flag just as much without directly losing posting rewards or curation rewards.
Similar to Voting Power, Flagging Power would have to be delegatable; Smaller accounts can delegate their Flagging Power to a common account that does the flagging for them, so there are no direct retaliations.
Since there would be equally as much downvoting power as there is upvoting power, I would expect a lot of votes to cancel each other out.
I can not predict, if this would bring good posts to the frontpage, automatically.
It would certainly make rewards less predictable, especially for botters and selfvoters.
It could mess up at least the curation rewards for some bad players and perhaps rekindle a curation process.
'It would end bid bots in a day.' *
* not my words
Discussion
I am planning on making a longer post,
just wanted to get the ball rolling ...
Please comment below.
I think this is a very cool concept, and I think it would be something I'd support.
Would there be a rewards pool for flaggers too? Like the rewards that are removed from a post due to flag, goes to a flagger pool...
That would be pretty wild.
I kind of like this idea. It would be very interesting to see how this would play out. I assume there would be some new flagwars coming our way.
But I would like to see a more bot free trending pages. If this would help...dont know
I basically agree. Having a discrete flag pool would make more people take responsibilty for holding abusers to account.... if you've got it, you may as well use it.
As it stands the 'I would but I'd rather use my VP for good' is too easy an excuse for people to not flag.
Sorry to hear yr ending yr witness!
Posted using Partiko Android
The only incentive that you have for using it is actually for defense. If you look around you and watch the news, you can notice a pattern in Human Behavior. That is, they only take action when they get hit too. (99% of the time) The biggest researchers for Alzeihmers are people that suffered from the disease one way or another. So we all can do that too but we won't until it hits us. So giving a flag pool to spammers and people that don't really care. Is not the best way to fight spam. Because as a spammer I would be incentivised to use my flags more to protect my self. But other Authors don't have time to review posts so they won't. Even tho when flagging people you save a bit of reward for later what makes our upvotes a little more valuable over time.
One more thing. People will always "find" excuses. The 'I would but I'd rather use my VP for good' will become Oh I don't have time or I don't want to get into flag wars. ( remember flag wars are bad now, with this change it would be the WW Level of casualties xD.
That would be giving SO MUCH power for retaliation! and Bid bot would not care anymore if you downvote them because they can counter you without loosing money from curation. It's a good idea only if in the platform there are more abuse fighters than Abusers not the other way around. Right now we have a huge advantage over spammers. That is we are not greedy and want to fight abuse even if it means loosing a bit of money right now. But Abusers don't get in wars because it's bad for business. ( At least for sustained wars :D) they just want to make money. If you give them the power to counter us for NOTHING. I will pray for steem :D
Listen to this man. He does a lot of abuse fighting around here. They let me hang out and bullshit with them over on the @steemflagrewards discord channel and I have seen that these guys are willing to give up their own rewards to try and fight the shitheads that fuck this platform over. If you give the spammers a seperate flag pool to hit back with then you will see a lot more spam.
I am not a friend of flags. Feelings, opinions, and of course, judgments are never objective. Many flags are more an expression of aversion than of an objective judgment. There is also a lot of abuse potential in this flag system. If I had a strong voice here, I would totally remove the flag system.
@seo-boss
Totally agree. My view is that going around attacking people (flagging). Is a poor substitute for helping people (voting).
Flagging is usually done by people that have failed to be successful here, so instead of trying to do that, they go and blame "the bad guys/abusers of the system".
They need to look in the mirror and start being helpful instead.
This place will only succeed if we start looking out for each other / help each other.
Ich schon.
Objektivität ist ein Trugschluss und wird überbewertet.
Versuche mal auf reddit z.B. rechtsesoterischen Müll oder Flat Earth "Theorien" zu verbreiten, versuche mal stumpf zu werben oder Müll abzuladen um Punkte zu farmen. Mach das mal. Dein Account wird in weniger als 24 Stunden in Grund und Boden geflaggt und anschließend unbrauchbar sein. Die Gemeinschaft reguliert sich damit selbst und Unsinn wird ganz selbstverständlich aussortiert. Es ist vollkommen okay, wenn Du subjektiv Flags vergibst, ebenso subjektiv wirst Du voten und die Summe aller Teilnehmer reguliert das "nach oben" und "nach unten".
In einem gesunden System würde also das von Dir angesprochene"problematische" Verhalten ebenso nicht akzeptiert werden und sich somit selbst regulieren.
Auf steemit wird unglaublich viel Müll abgeladen ohne Konsequenzen. Hier sind Flags nur deshalb bei einigen wenigen verpönt weil sie den Steem noch immer nicht verstanden haben. Daher kommen Flags praktisch nie zum Einsatz und genau daran krankt das System.
Ich unterstütze daher den Vorschlag von Felixxx.
Ist Reddit objektiv? Dort gibt es 10% Wortführer und 90% Mitläufer, wer den Leadern nicht passt, wird in den Boden gestampft. Ich habe das am eigenen Leib mit mehreren Accounts erfahren. Das ist im Kern Meinungsfaschismus! Nur weil es groß ist, muss es nicht gut sein. Was ist rechtesoterischer Müll? Wer definiert das? Ich glaube an die Gesetze des Marktes. Was schlecht ist wird, wenn keine Energie für Manipulation aufgewendet wird, verschwinden. Das funktioniert auch in den sozialen Netzwerken so. Wenn mir auf Twitter jemand nicht passt, dann blockiere ich den. Da muss ich nichts melden oder flaggen.
Jedes Produkt hat seinen Markt, jede Meinung seinen Vertreter. Ich bin gegen Zensur. Wenn ein System wirklich demokratisch sein soll, muss es auch Spinner und deren Meinungen verkraften. Wenn die keine Resonanz bekommen, verschwinden die von allein.
Nichts ist objektiv, sage ich doch.
Wenn ich gemein wäre, würde ich nun sagen: "siehe da, nun haben wir bzgl. reddit ein lebendes Beispiel" od. "siehe da, Beweis ad hoc erbracht". Aber bin ich ja nicht.
Mir geht es nicht darum zu sagen, das reddit perfekt ist, ebenso wenig wie die von Dir aufgeführten Beispiele perfekt sind, die ich nun ohne große Mühe zerlegen kann. Das bringt uns aber nicht weiter und führt weg vom eigentlichen Punkt.
Nun, ich denke, Du wirst wenigstens den Punkt nicht bestreiten, dass Flaggen Potential zum Mißbrauch in sich trägt. Dieses Argument allein wiegt schwerer als jedes andere, jedenfalls in meinen Augen. Nenne mir bitte die Gründe, warum jemand etwas flaggen soll. Mir würde da nur einfallen, dass der Beitrag gegen Gesetze verstößt und selbst hier, würde ich mir nicht anmaßen den Richter spielen zu wollen. Jeder muss selbst verabtworten was er/ sie tut. Im Falle von Gesetzverstößen kann der Gesetzgeber tätig werden.
Alles birgt Missbrauch in sich. Wenn ich Deiner Logik folgen würde, werden morgen Selfi-Sticks verboten, denn es sind mittlerweile fast 300 Menschen damit zu Tode gekommen - Stichwort "selfie deaths". Hmm, wobei ...Selfi-Sticks sollte man vllt. wirklich verbieten. Ich schweife ab.
Schau, wenn alle im System in der Summe 100 Votes zur Verfügung haben und dazu nochmals 100 Flags, dann hast Du theoretisch 0 Schaden, also null Missbrauch des Systems. Einen Missbrauch von Votes oder einen Missbrauch von Flags findet dann theoretisch nur statt, wenn eine der beiden Seiten den Job nicht erfüllt. Aktuell sehen wir dahingehend ein Ungleichgewicht, eben weil die Flags unterrepräsentiert sind. Wenn Votes (+) und Flags (-) das selbe Gewicht haben, bist Du bei null und null ist ggf. eine prima Lösung. Also die aktuell beste Schlechte zumindest. Es geht hierbei auch um eine Lösung um das Thema bid bots und reward pool raping vom Tisch zu bekommen. Es geht um mehrere Fliegen mit einer Klappe.
Ich hoffe ich habe dies nun gut erklärt. Hoffe ich wirklich.
Ein Beispiel? Ich gebe Dir sogar vier:
Natürlich könnten wir auch Flags ganz abschaffen und uns voten wie blöd und alle sind happy, weil alle die Taschen voll haben. Aber dann werfen wir den Grundgedanken des wundervollen Steem über Board.
Ich denke viele überbewerten diese Debatte bzw. emotionalisieren sie unnötig. Auch auf YouTube hast Du Flags - Daumen runter. Ebenso kannst Du auf FB Dein Missfallen mit einem entsprechenden Smiley ausdrücken. Ein YouTube ohne Daumen runter würde keiner mehr ernst nehmen.
Es geht um die Balance, um das Gleichgewicht.
Die von Felixxx dargelegte Flag Power ist das Pendant zur Steem Power um diese Balance zu gewährleisten.
The big question is, who writes the code?
Can you see any witness, supporting this idea, that could start working on it /is currently working on it?
Because what I see is a lot of talk and no action.
The big changes are still coming from steemit Inc in the github. And not one witness.
And this would be a big change.
Not to mention all the testing included.
I am for this (though I would get a huge amount of downvotes), but what would be the time line for its introduction?
vandeberg
no
It would be a fundamental change to the economics.
As for the code, this change would be arguably small.
Flags already exist, Voting Power already exists ...
I could not tell you how long it would take.
If it wasn't for github I could not even tell you, who the cto of stinc is.
Was more a rhetorical question;)
I see also his pulls to the github and not much from outside stinc.
It seems, they still follow the waterfall model, when it comes to programming.
Nothing agile to be seen here.
Shouldn't we test out this in a testnet?
Play around with it.
This Flag Pool has been announced, statet, mentioned by so many big witnesses, yet 0 action.
Once stinc is bankrupt, the blockchain will be more unsustainable as it currently is.
I guess most of them moved on to EOS and are milking the steem cash cow.
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Well, I thing is for sure. It's easier to find stuff to downvote than to upvote.
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