Let's burn some steem... I need your help.

in #burnsteem5 years ago

I'm of the opinion that a little bit of burning can go a long way to effect price. Not all my witness colleagues agree with me, but this is what I think:

Eth has better price and is terrible to use because every transaction has a burn.
Steem has lower price and is great to use because every transaction is free (if you have the rc).

I designed Steem Engine to have infrequent, but expensive burns so that people constantly have to purchase the token and burn it to get the tools they want. It's kept the price of ENG quite high relative to the price of Steem even after a few big token dumps, but it hasn't effected the ease of use for the vast majority of people interacting.

Will burning make a difference? How much burning do we need?

Here's bittrex. It's btc vs steem. It's a low volume trade these days. You'll notice that the entire asking side is 15btc. It's not a ton of money. It's ~$150,000. In total that would be ~750k steem.

Let's ballpark annual Steem inflation at 20M. 750k/20M = ~4%.

So, if we can figure out how to burn 4% of the rewards pool over the course of a year we can wipe out what's on bittrex now. I'm presuming that people will go to an exchange to purchase tokens they don't have to do a thing they want.

This might be indirect, so someone usually sells everything they earn here, instead they play a game, and with the game they record a high score and burn steem to do it, it dimishes the sell pressure just slightly, now someone else comes along and buys Steem because there was slightly less out there for sale. So, I'm counting someone burning somewhere will mean someone else being forced to buy. This might be wrong, but thus far it's my general experience.

My math isn't perfect, but my point is that it doesn't have to be a huge amount

So, my hope is that we as a community can start working on some simple things that can burn Steem. My three generic catagories are:

  1. Advertising
  2. Customizations
  3. Games

For Advertising I'd like to see all the front ends start having ads that display, but you have to burn Steem to get the ad. So, some gets burnt, some goes to the site operator, some goes to content creator. Maybe Steemit will be willing to burn some of the Steem they take in for ads.

For customizations I'd like to get my profile on Steem to have some things that I had to burn Steem to get. Badges, avatars, or whatever.

For games they could be really simple things. Coin runners, open source games, idle clicks, 1980s era RPGs that come back, but the key thing would be having a small burn for stuff players want. Maybe it's free to play but to get your score up there you have to burn steem.

So, let's try to get just a really simple thing up there

Take an afternoon or something and build something that burns Steem to do a thing, maybe you make a little money for the thing too. That's ok. Maybe you count on ads later. Whatever, let's just get a really simple thing up somewhere that burns a hint of Steem.

I'll help make it successful. I'll help get it connected to tribes. I'll help point people there.

People that makes things like this I could pay directly, help get witness votes, give tribe tokens or eng, help advocate for money from the SPS, or something else.

I think this is pretty important, so if you create something even really simple let's talk.

If you need inspiration for simple games check out itch.io. There's open source games so look for those too.

If you have ideas or build something please use #burnsteem and message me in Discord. You can find me in PALnet at minnowpond.org

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I like it. What about if we made the option for a faster powerdown, but there was a fee to do so and that fee was paid in steem and that steem was burned? I have heard a few others talk about such an idea, but I like it as well.

Also, I think we need to try and create more incentives for people to want to power up steem. I actually think the EIP may go the opposite direction in that and we are still feeling those effects in terms of steem's price as a lot of people powered down when that became clear it was going to be accepted and adopted.

I am not sure what the best incentives are, but I don't think a 50/50 reward split for SP holders is enough of an incentive to get people to power up more steem...

Pay for power down is a great idea.

People would definitely spend coin for an expedited powerdown.

super idea

Posted using Partiko Android

The Liqwid (not sure that's right) service take a fee and people seem to be OK paying that and so I think this is a good idea 👍🏽

but then is steem less secure. is a part of protection the funds in wallet, after a week only 1/13 of your steem is gone if you loss your active key. So that would need higher key then active otherwise i dont like it.

This is true - more risk.

We can make it three days or a week instead of completely instant.

Posted using Partiko iOS

Yes. It doesn't have to be instant, just faster than 3 months. I think many would pay a couple percent of their stake to power down within a week... as opposed to 13 weeks.

I agree with the burn for instant powerdown option. It’s a natural fit to STEEM.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I was actually thinking about a dApp for this but it's almost Impossible to make if it's not implemented in the blockchain.
It would need users to risk their master key account and would take 4 weeks and 2 days for the liquid steem to be received, because liquidator needs to ensure there is no account retrieval.

I suggest 10% fees burnt for instant power down no less

I was thinking like 5%, but the exact number hasn't really been ironed out. If instant power downs were done though, it would be a significant security risk compared to now... I was thinking like a 3 day power down personally.

Yeah imagine all the big whales powering down and exiting in one day or even 3 days, witnesses will be affected immediately because all of the missing voting power. This will probably destabilise the blockchain if it's implemented.

A middle ground needs to be found

I was thinking more along the lines of if someone's account was hacked. Right now if someone's account is compromised their steem is still safe as long as it is powered up, giving you time to recover your account. However, if there is an option to instantly power it down, it means having your account compromised could mean loss of all funds, even if powered up.

This is the first time I hear this.
It is for me a great idea.
An automatic powerdown will have a fee, example 1% and it will be burn automatically too! Good, hope SteemitInc can implement it. 👏🏽

Posted using Partiko iOS

Yes, we should be able to do something like this, but it may not be for a while as it will require a hard fork.

Eth has better price and is terrible to use because every transaction has a burn.

So first off, I'm not all that knowledgeable about Ethereum so I could be wrong here, but don't the gas fees go to the miners? As far as I'm aware there's no burning going on there.

In any case, burning is good for token prices...I don't think it's possible to argue with that, it's just simple supply/demand. But, asking people to burn STEEM (or any token) is just flat out never going to work. Asking business to create a product that requires burning STEEM is no different. A few people here and there might burn some to be altruistic or make some type of point, but at the end of the day it's money and people aren't going to burn their money.

To make burning work, it has to be part of the platform. This is what you're doing with Steem Engine and it's working great there (as far as I can tell at least). Steem already has this a little bit with account creation. You can burn 3 STEEM to create a new account. This is a great example of how burning can be used as part of the platform. Of course, after HF20 now you can claim free accounts using your SP so I suspect not many people are doing this anymore.

In my opinion, SMTs should work very similar to how Steem Engine works - you should have to burn STEEM to create tokens and even more to enable other features like ICOs, market trading, staking, proof of brain distribution, etc. As an example, Tron has a built-in smart contract for creating tokens that requires you to burn 1024 Tron to use.

Overall though, even if these all sorts of burn mechanics were implemented I doubt it would make any meaningful dent in the STEEM supply. If we want to focus on supply, I think the focus should be on reducing inflation and/or the Steemit, Inc selling; however, I think the real focus should be on the demand side.

If SteemIt, Inc wanted to I'm willing to bet they could make a deal with some big company like Samsung, or get STEEM listed on Coinbase, and just one such deal like that would do far more for the price than anything we might do on the supply end.

I don’t agree. Making people burn is not impossible. We can “incentivize” them.

For example: all posts upvoted by bidbots downvoted to 0 by @steemit. And replace top trending spots on steemit by auction spots for the biggest burners. Why would Steemit, Inc do this instead of earning ad revenue?

Because they hold 25% of the STEEM supply and seeing the price move up is much much much more profitable than some ad revenue.

More examples: any business that burns a lot receives big delegations, free promotion, etc.

Not implementing this is just lazyness, and we can’t rely on more people buying STEEM for ever. At one point the market will dry up.

Even more examples: “burning has to be part of the platform” that is a quote from you. We could probably think of 5 good ways to burn STEEM in 10 minutes and making so from the blockchain code and the way STEEM works.

A good recent proposition was from @theycallmedan when he proposed a 5% token burn for instant powerdown.

Posted using Partiko iOS

you are 100% right.

if tokens should be burned that should not happen artificially. It should be part of the system and code.

SMTs give a way to do it.

What do you think about burn Steem for a SMT and get some RC on the SMTs?

I think this would be really nice for some guys only use a SMT and its also good for Steem.

Lets burn TASK tokens by @heimindanger whose system DOES burn tokens to compleet TASKS to actually get peopel top PROMOTE things on twitter or youtube instagram etc

IMAGINE a Steem proposal System or delegation funding project to even create a new Hard Fork 22 or 23 POST SMT improvement process where we can actually BURN STEEM like TASKM tokens

https://task.steemwhales.com

I know @aggroed is already a whale in this project by @dtube creator @heimindanger which lets people get paid in steem engine tokens to do tasks, AND CAPTCHA tasks ... I think you can make aliving off this if you do it full time 8 hours a day and live in Venezuela or Nigeria where you can piggy back off someoen elses pooled internet and shipping container or mud hust and we cnexpand like the prospectors game but in real life

like the @wafrica gameI helped convince @surfyogi to start and we just have to create a game mockup and a proof of concept working dapp, liek prospectors, and mayeb we can license prospectors and clone itf or a modern day GTA style version

also id love a game that works on steem for teh cheap accounts and eos for the marketcap

Tokenize burning. Create burn coin. Add sink to burn coin.

Posted using Partiko Android

I was talking in discord the other day about creating ASH. Every STEEM you burn, you get an ASH.

If nothing else, you can flex your burn on others.

Hi @nealmcspadden

question is: what would give any value to ASH tokens. Without reason to buy it price would only keep dropping down.

It would just be for status

If you can buy them on the market then owning them won’t be a proof that you burned. So you can’t really show off. So no one will buy. Could maybe work though.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I like this idea. I want burn power.

Posted using Partiko Android

To add on, maybe use all raised steem in burncoin sales as steem power that daily upvotes a burn post. Helps to burn future inflation

Posted using Partiko Android

Why don't we have a powerdown fee (and burn it)?
0.5% seems reasonable...

For Advertising I'd like to see all the front ends start having ads that display, but you have to burn Steem to get the ad. So, some gets burnt, some goes to the site operator, some goes to content creator. Maybe Steemit will be willing to burn some of the Steem they take in for ads.

What a great idea!

https://steemit.com/steemit/@ats-david/pscu45

https://steemit.com/hf21/@ats-david/pto3dw

If only all of these “new interface” owners would actually put some minimal effort into improving on the Steemit.com design/features. Why was this not one of your goals from the beginning?

What are you guys waiting for?

Also...

Maybe convince STINC to burn what remains of their ninja-mine instead of diluting all other stakeholder influence with your new delegation system.

Talk about something making a huge difference. There it is. Remember when you were once for that? Before you were given control over their SP?

Of course they won't burn their stake, it's the only incentive that keeps them working for the chain while all witnesses are trying to make money on the side or doing nothing.

However, burn for ads is a must, I agree.

How about burning all the rewards from posts that decline the rewards. I'm guessing that would have to be changed with a fork. Or maybe add a burn option in the post settings... Steempeak has done an awesome job at other stuff. What do y'all think? @asgarth, @jarvie, @r00sj3, @dmytrokorol

That could just be setting the beneficiary to NULL?
There's also talk of allowing the beneficiary to be the SPS account... but they only use SBD right? I guess there's have to be some sort of account that converts steem to sbd and sends it to that SPS account. Or the SPS account could have an automated buy SBD from market with any Steem they get.

I agree ;)

The conversion from Steem to SBD is automatic when you set the SPS account as a beneficiary. That is indeed part of the 0.21.0 release.

That's great news. So we could set up a beneficiary and then it'd work pretty easily. Thanks for the feedback.

I agree that having some burn mechanics would go a long way already to stabilize the Steem price. This still doesn't solve the issue that there is little to no reasons to power up and hold a lot of SP these days (at least for average users). When I started on Steem a few years back, you really needed SP to do better on the platform. Right now with all the upvotes coming from the Dapps & Tribes (Steemmonsters, Actifit, Drugwars, esteem, 3Speak, Dtube, PAL, SPORTS, ...) there is almost no difference to how much Steem you can earn/mine between having 100SP which gives you all the RC you need and having 10k SP.

How about this for an idea: If all the DAPPS linked their upvotes directly to the SP someone has giving bigger upvotes to bigger SP holders in a fair way there would be an actual reason to power up and at the same time cut out a lot of abuse since it's easy to just make a new account and start farming all the free dapp upvotes. I honestly want to power up more but I see no reason currently and all I see is people powering down and dumping their steem for steemmonsters cards, different steem-engine tokens, ...

Looking at the numbers there seems to be a connection between dapps / tribe tokens and the price of Steem that continues to go down. What Steem needs is good reasons to hold SP along with some systematic burning mechanics it could do wonders for the STEEM price getting it back into a positive spiral.

Looking at the numbers there seems to be a connection between dapps / tribe tokens and the price of Steem that continues to go down.

I’m not sure if you’re right or wrong about that, but one of the problems with SE and their tokens/tribes is that they mostly don’t airdrop on Steem users. So there’s no reason to hold the underlying token. And maybe their goal is to not use or care about Steem and its tokens...but then why bother developing on Steem at all?

Seems to me that people are just looking for more ways to extract value from Steem rather than try to add value to it. Funny how a lot of the new SE tokens/tribes airdrop on PAL holders...as if they’re just paying tribute to Aggroed and his cult. It’s not surprising though, seeing who the people are.

And as far as anyone can tell, not a single shit has been given about the entire SE platform by anyone outside of Steem. It just appears to be more insider circle-jerking...just like Steem/Steemit has been for most of the past three years.

How innovative!

Exactly. More incentives for powering up is what we need.

Hi @costanza

Indeed. Burning is always great addition, but it's just an addition.

Circulating supply is growing way faster than we could burn tokens, so this is not a real solution. Giving people non-financial reasons to STAKE their tokens should be the way to go.

Simple example: if I would know that publications everyone feed are being displayed with large stakeholders downwards, then I would know that I'm increasing chance that my followers will see my publication in their feed if my STAKE would be high.

For many people and businesses that would bring great value to their staked tokens. Value that isn't based on financial rewards increasing current supply.

Yours
Piotr

the more of a market place there is the less people will want to exchange for FRNs
buying and selling durable goods should help the Steem economy too.

I couldn’t agree more. Burning Steem and incentivizing powerups is what we need more of.

Here are a few thoughts on burning Steem:

  • Why can’t we integrate Promoted posts into Trending on Steemit or one of the other Steem frontends, similar to how Palnet or other SCOT tribes do it? This way there will be more people using the Promote function to burn Steem.
  • Communities have huge potential for hosting features that require burning of Steem. I am strongly in favor of charging higher fees in Steem that is burnt to create a Community, and have access to features such as featured posts etc.
  • How about some features with Steem-engine that require Steem to be burnt? Maybe something like a portion of withdraw fees for Steem-engine be burnt?
  • SMT also has a huge potential to charge Steem that could be burnt too.

Just some initial thoughts.

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