RE: The crux of Leftist thinking has nothing to do with Marx..
People that want a socialistic system can always pool something together voluntarily and distribute it equally voluntarily. (edit, But then it's not a socialistic system anymore.)
If I trade with someone, is that someone my worker and am I his worker?
Like in the example with the eggs and milk. Who is the the worker and who is the boss?
If you have decided that for you the dozen eggs are enough to trade for a gallon of milk and vice versa, then who else must interfere and what right does he or she have to interfere between you two making a voluntary trade you both agree on?
Can you dictate him how much eggs he must give you for your gallon milk and force him to give that to you for your gallon milk? If not ...why not? If so...why?
If altruism is real or not stand apart from might makes right and the universality thereof.
"If altruism is real or not stand apart from might makes right and the universality thereof"
No. If someone takes what's yours because they are more powerful than you, that's the opposite of altruism.
Theft/robbery, be it murder theft rape fraud aggression (without consent), is not altruism. I agree.
Taking someones work, without the persons consent, with threats of violence or violence is not altruism either, it's slavery/forced labor.
But what I was aiming at is that there are more that one reasons or underlying reasons, that "the world" is not yet might is right.
The self interest could be the reason or the underlying reason. Not many people want to live under that might and it's in their self interest to cooprate and do altruistic deeds. I believe altruistic deeds are done out of self interest they originate there so to speak.
I also believe that knowing that everything one does is out of self interest (I believe that), is a good thing and has way better result than assuming that one is altruistic. (not saying you say that)
I however mostly think in deeds, not in being. ........as in ....that someone is doing altruistic deeds instead of that someone is altruistic.
I once read this sentence that got me thinking, believe it or not..lol
People are selfish for not doing what I selfishly want them to do.
It put selfish altruistic in different perspectives for me.
Thanks for the reply :)
"altruistic deeds are done out of self interest they originate there"
Then the deeds are not truly altruistic.
It is possible to do good without expecting reward, recognition, or patting self on the back. Do it and forget about it.
"People are selfish for not doing what I selfishly want them to do"
That reminds me, although it is not a truly accurate reflection, of a passage from John Kenneth Galbraith (please don't take this personally):
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
I don't take things personally :)
I'd like to explain a bit.
I'm not a conservative. If I had to describe myself here I'm more a translator. Not is the sense of language itself, but in the sense of, giving people of the one group a look into what the other group (probably) means with what they say, and how something the other group say may be misinturpreted by people of the other group. This is very "tricky" I know lol. And gives sometimes strange outcomes like... I've spoken with a true nazi who called me a communist and the other way around, while I'm neither.
But let me try to explain why I think that it's not meant as a justification to being selfish of most conservatives. Maybe for some it is, but I think for most it's not.
I can not speak for others or "the conservatives" of course so I speak from myself out.
That I believe I do everything I do is for selfish reason is not to justify being selfish but more like an observation within me, a know thyself to give perspective in relationships with people and make things better.
I'm in my day to day Iife pretty altruistic and would promote (for lack of a better world) altruism also the "do it and forget it sort" which I practice. (Others would describe me as altruistic in nature, I think, and that's all nice and so that others may describe me that way) But I think it's important for me, to realize that if I really really go back to the root of that altruism, and if I'm truly honest with myself, and look deep enough, that in one way or the other, it is done for selfish reasons no matter how small and insignificant it may be.
It's more something like knowing the "shadow side" or being aware of it, is a good thing even while being the "do it and forget it" altruistic type of person in day to day life, it keeps you down to earth so to speak.
But like I said, I can not speak for conservatives but I think a lot of them, if not most of them, mean it like that. It could of course also be naivety on my side and seeing the best in people........ (conservatives in this case).
I don't know lol.
I hope you get what I mean English is not my native language and the in written word is very hard.
Thanks
Your English is good, I get your meaning. May I ask what is your native language?
One problem with 'conservatism' is the definition, or explanation, of it.
Merriam-Webster (I am not recommending Merriam-Webster) defines it as
So clearly a conservative ideology resists change. If that political system had been always in control there would still be slavery in the US, and women would walk two feet behind their husband.
When a Conservative government is in power, things like human rights, universal equality (and altruism) don't advance.
I don't think that I've ever encountered a fascist, a nazi or a racist that was politically left.
Proponents of conservatism often speak of individual rights infringement (often within the context of having pay taxes). Yet they happily take advantage of the public services: roadways, police, libraries, education systems, etc.
Often they take issue with a portion of their taxes being used to assist the disadvantaged. This reduces the worldview to the Thrasymachean ethic: might makes right. If you're healthy and strong, help yourself to the world's riches. Otherwise, too bad for you. So if you were born disadvantaged - either politically, economically or imperfect physically, you're out of luck. And if you were once strong but fell on bad luck, maybe a workplace accident or toxic poisoning at work or just worn out physically from hard work, well too bad for you too.
Basically, that's life in the jungle. I prefer civilization.