Let's Talk About Fees & Functionality Coming in the @tippy Text-to-Tip Service!
Our network will be getting a sweet addition in the next week or two once the @tippy Text-to-Tip service goes live. Before its development is completed and the project moves to testing / open beta I would like to get the communities thoughts on what sort of service fees they would be content with for usage of the service. Originally I'd planned to have fees scaling from 1% to 2% as the tip amounts increased, but after talking to our CEO @ned decided to flip this around and apply the larger end of the fee spectrum towards smaller amounts tipped through @tippy!
Current @tippy Service Fees
At launch @tippy will charge a flat rate of 1% of each tip sent
The community has spoken and shaped the development of @tippy!
Thank You to all who have given feedback and shared ideas!!
Now these fees are not yet set in stone..! The purpose of this post is to get the communities thoughts on if the current service fees are something people wouldn't mind paying at their current rates. Admittedly when it comes to charging people money I believe that most will gladly pay a small percentage if a service provides them with some sort of value.
EDIT: Overwhelming feedback to implement a flat rate fee from the community has moved me to drop the variable rate service fee and try a minimal 1% flat rate fee on all tips via @tippy. A set tip fee command accepting both decimals and percentiles has been implemented to allow bot owners to set their fees on the fly!
Adding Efficiency to Otherwise Time Consuming Tasks
Currently if you want to tip a user on Steemit.com one must go to their wallet page, click the currency they would like to transfer, hit the transfer dropdown menu item, type in the name of the user, type in the amount, click send, authorize the transaction and wait 3 seconds for it to go through. With @tippy nearly all of this grunt work can be avoided and once a user has deposited STEEM / SBD into their balance they are free to send tips to anyone simply by typing "@tippy tip user amount currency" into a comment. No need to divulge private keys, account access or anything of that sort..! Fast, Simple and Efficient!
Functions, Fun and Development Progress
@tippy is currently capable of the following functionality:
- STEEM/SBD Deposit Monitoring
- Automatic Account Creation
- User Balances
- Service Fees and Profit Forwarding to Owner
- Set Tip Fee Command is Available to Owner (@tippy fee %1 / @tippy fee 0.99 - Same things)
- Tipping via Text-to-Tip (@tippy tip klye 1001.337 STEEM)
- Help Call to Aide New Users (@tippy help) - Work in Progress
- Information Call to Display Ownership (@tippy info) - Work in Progress
- Statistics Call Regarding Usage and Activity (@tippy stats) - Work in Progress
- Ping Command to Check Availability (@tippy ping)
- Upvote Parent Post (@tippy vote)
- Flag Parent Post (@tippy flag)
- Debug Mode in Console Triggered by Owner Command (@tippy debug on/off)
- Uptime / Comments / Blocks Parsed Counter in Console (@tippy uptimeinfo on/off)
- Vote or Flag Feedback on Tipping Success or Failure (not sure if will make release)
- Steem Power-Up Tipping (@tippy powerup klye 1.337 STEEM)
Functionality that could be implemented, or has had users request:
- Mass / Group Tipping
- Tip to E-mail address
- User Quotes and Fun Random Memos on Tips
- ??? (Your Idea Here)
Functionality still left to be implemented:
- Missed Block Parser / Catch up After Restart
- Fool-proof User Feedback on Functions
- Detect Block Parsing Misses and Deploy Self Correction
- Figure Out Work Around for 20 Second Post Limiter (queue or multi-accounts)
Community Thoughts & Ideas Are Welcomed!
As with all of my projects currently under development the STEEM communities feedback, thoughts and ideas are what shapes the direction my work goes and dictate what functionality ends up making the final cut. Although I am a code mercenary out to create profitable, useful and ultimately unique services for our STEEM network without community support and a rough idea of what we all want I'm left guessing at what should be focused on... Which isn't the way you make great apps / services!
What are your thoughts on the fees listed above? Have you got any ideas or functionality you'd like to see added into @tippy? Help me shape the future of STEEM for us all!
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Cool project! The fee structure seems fine ... but I personally would like to see a simple flat rate, and suspect a single fee priced somewhere between 2% and 3% would be perfectly acceptable to most users.
Overwhelming feedback leaning towards flat rate. LIkely that this will be how the service operates.
My thoughts on functionality are not so much at this point in time. I suggest to launch it soon and let the people who try it come up with suggestions, it is always better to learn in practice then in theory. One suggestion I have, move ASAP to a button in the Steemit UI, as well as Busy.org UI...but preferably only Steemit UI now, by far the most users on Steemit UI + it gives a benefit to the Steemit UI to use for those who like to tip. The comment phrase looks simple, but people will make mistakes. For Steemit INC it is almost no work to get a button in their UI.
On transaction/tipping fee. I agree some fee shall be applied since development is not for free. You could implement a transaction fee as you suggested, in a later phase you could also implement a subscription fee, ie for x Steem per month a user is allowed to tip y times. From making revenue, this subscription fees are always interesting since people tend to forget they paying a fee, while may not use the service for some time. I understand your thoughts in low percentage for small amounts and higher percentage for larger amounts. I also understand @ned, when have a lower amount on a higher tip/transaction, people may be incentives to send higher tips. BUT, with most of use earning free money by blogging/commenting/curating, I don't think these arguments will work. But why not testing this? I would go for simplicity at launch, 1 single percentage regardless of the tip/transaction value. Any service becomes successful for its simplicity, ie Simplicity is the KEY element in any service. The percentage itself, well that is a balance between what the users are willing to pay for and what your costs are that went into creating this. One very proven and successful pricing strategy is in any service coming to market is, free from the beginning, and at some point in time start asking money for it. At that point you will loose customers, but while the service was free you will gain more customer than if it was not for free. I've seen that many times in many different countries with SMS pricing and SMS services pricing. Whenever those was made free or much less expensive, the usage went sky high, after applying the normal pricing again, the usage came down, but usually the usage was higher than before such SMS-for-free campaign. Another thing to think about is, how you like the community to perceive your service, but also you as a person. That also determines how you price the service. Do you like progressive systems? Like out tax systems, the more you earn the more you have to pay in relative terms? I don't, therefore I like contant fees, either in relative terms or in absolute terms, but no progression or digression. But commercially that may not be the best pricing strategy.
Wow. Now THIS is thoughts and feedback. Thank you for taking the time to write what is on your mind.
I'd love for my code to make it into the site and be officially implemented so I can gloat to my non-existant friends in real life that I created a service used by a multi-million dollar network. However I'd not really even set that as my goal until you mentioned it.. I'll perhaps have to ask the Steemit INC crew what needs done on my end to get tippy ready to rock and roll on the GUI.
I'd briefly played with the idea of a subscription style service rolled into @tippy and the way you describe x amount of tips free would be interesting. Perhaps have a $1SBD, $5SBD, $20SBD, etc etc optional monthly subscription that would allow chargless tipping and perhaps even access to advanced functionality.
I really appreciate you brainstorming with me. Perhaps a constant fee and subscription offering is the way to go.
Cheers man.
I would launch with either: absolute contant fee, or constant percentage. The advantage of the later is that someone who want s to tip a really low amount can do that without paying up to 100%+ on commission. Since we have many many mini mini mini minnows int he community making a couple of cents on their post, I would suggest to go with a fixed percentage at start. Be aware your service may get a lot of hits when introducing such pricing strategy, bot may be created that tip 1.000s of tips within seconds, maybe sending 1000 account each 0.001 Steem. So have a plan ready how to mitigate this when it happens. You do not want to have an real outage on your service. So when your service is not able to handle many tx per second, you may want to introduce with a tx fee constant in absolute value, this will reduce the amount of tips generated. Oh, from engineering point of fee, think how you can throttle the tip requests, with meaningful feedback to the tippers when their tips are not possible to be accepted.
I'm thinking some sort of queue system that serves multiple tippy accounts in round robin should be enough to handle high service loads.. However I'd not even given thought to users making bots to mess with it.. I'll have to do some research and testing once I get my load handling / 20 second limiter work around functioning.
From software architecture point of view I cannot really contribute, I know a bit from working with software architects as a pre sales guy and product manager, but am far from a specialist :) DB is important though, lot of developers decide for easy and go with non redundant. 20 tx/sec seems very low performance. You will see very busy times and very not busy times. I'm pretty sure, but only live tests will show you real figures. Maybe launch the service without announcing it to the community but with some early adopters you recruit directly? Limit the number of users to use the service, just to see how in that trial period the tippers are behaving? But then again, if you state alpha testing and you give some guarantee the tips never gets lost, than it should also be fine to roll out to the complete community. When you ask no fee from the start, you take a issue away, or at least partially...when things go wrong, nobody could claim and point fingers at you saying "you earned even money from us!". All the sht happening with the Poloniex exchange last week(s) I so furious about, since they cause market drops but earn at least 300k US$ worth of tx fees, and still they do not get their sht together with constant outages of their service, and leaving their customers with losses on their portfolios. Anyway, not completely comparable with a tipping service, but still, where money is involved people start to get extra emotional.
One great thing about running a service on a blockchain is it's nearly impossible to lose deposits as it's all recorded in public.
I've been pretty meticulous about how user data is stored, accessed, written and used. I think what I'll end up doing is ditching the variable fees and going to a flat rate.
As for closed beta testing I could likely implement some sort of whitelist function that would allow only those who've been approved to access the service.
When dealing with deposits, balances, transfers and fees there is no margin for error and the system has got to be potato-proof as well as intuitive, secure and have redundancy / backups. I'm probably 50% done the code I reckon.. It will likely be another week of coding and a week of testing before I'm entirely comfortable unleashing this.
That was why I asked :)
Great!
WOW that is fast work! But my reference are larger engineering departement with all sort of middle managed and lots of processes and extensive testing blah blah blah, but I know things could go much faster when we would not have those processes, documentation etc etc in place...but yeh, my customers demanded such organisation.
I'm an insomniac.. So my natural sleep cycle is roughly 48 hours awake and 12-16 hours down time. Believe it or not I do my best work and find the most ambition in the wee hours of the morning when any normal human being would be resting for work..
Problem with large teams is that you have dependencies and bottlenecks within your group most of the time and that kills output as well as creates situations where you may introduce flaws or bugs in the system when adding people's code..
Atleast with the 1 man army style of development I've got no one to blame but myself if bugs arise and the entire project is all but mapped out, just a matter of getting it to function as intended, tested and launched!
Actually, to be fair, I suggested a lower fee percentage for greater sums would better than the reverse (higher percentage for greater sums), but that a flat fee percentage is probably the way to go. I also suggested and pointed out quite a few other things about tip bots - including the risks for the operator and users, especially if they are to scale.
@tippy tip ned 0.1 steem
@ned
Shouldn't a tipping purse be something that Steemit, Inc. can integrate on the site through the UI? I know I've mentioned this in the past - having an option to fill a smaller purse with an amount of STEEM/SBDs that can be tipped to users on the post with the click of a button when logged in with the posting key. Do you think that would be feasible as a wallet/UI function?
If this could be done, then it would also help bring in more potential earnings for older posts that are past the payout window...while the reader is right there on the post. (Of course, this would also assume that older posts can actually be found by simple navigation around the platform, but that's another development that needs to be tackled.)
One - upvotes are tips.
Two - transfers, which anyone can use for tips, could be implemented on the article pages - but users would need active keys. Transfers from articles pages are essentially the same function as transfers from steem wallet pages.
A smaller purse, like you described, could be accomplished as a new account balance with its own key authority - call it the tipping till - controlled by the tipping key. But this can be seen as largely a naming convention. It reflects what can already done between regular accounts and savings accounts.
My short answer is that it is possible - anything is possible, but that we will not be putting this on Steemit's near term development roadmap - as I pointed out much of the functionality already exists.
Right. But upvotes don't count when the post is more than 7 days old. And if you want to give more than an upvote, you'd need to send it manually.
OK. That was my question - whether or not a tipping purse could handle a transaction without needing to sign in with active/owner keys. The point would be to streamline tipping when you're signed in for posting or voting and to make tipping as simple as an upvote. Any additional steps that would be required would make the function sort of pointless.
I didn't want users to have to use their keys in any way shape or form. In essence @tippy is like a reloadable debit card that you can spend faster than conventional STEEM/SBD. Which reminds me I need to get tip memos working properly so users can tip to exchanges / shapeshift or other services that require the memo field for deposits.
Part of the reason I'd started on this project months ago is to be able to avoid clicking on buttons as much as possible to streamline the way we tip eachother on here.
Although if by some miracle Steemit Inc extends interest in implementing the @tippy functionality into the GUI I'd gladly work with them to get it done. :D
Well, I actually think that clicking a button would be quicker and easier than writing it out in a comment. And it wouldn't require a lot of space in the blocks either, as minimal as it may be.
But I do appreciate the work you're putting in. At least somebody is doing it.
You've come a long way, @klye! Although, your many MS Paint drawings are missed.
A button might be easier.. Like a small "Tip" icon by usernames that only requires you type in the ammount and select currency.
I'm going to continue to develop and finish the text-to-tip service @tippy offers regardless of buttons on the front end. The idea of not having to leave a post to toss a tip at a favourite user greatly appeals to me. :)
Thanks man, I miss doodling as it was so much less complicated but I'm honestly really enjoying the code work and the challenge of creating things that will benefit our network and her users. :)
Maybe one day once everything is set up and running smoothly I can get back to my roots and start drawing like I did. Truth be told I miss doing the art and having folks actually be stoked to see my illustrations.
i agree.
Tip bots like any other instant service requires a solid foundation, ie scalability is to be solved from the ground up in day one, as well as availability. Especially a tipping service requires business critical availability since people get frustrated when it doesn't work. And frustrated people are bad for the success of the service. What also is very important is the absolute flawless handling of the tips, ie once accepted by the system, it shall never be lost, so data redundancy is required. @klye will the tip administration and value recording be done on the Steem blockchain? Or will the service gets its own DB?
The current version stores its user data in a custom structured database. However I do really like the idea of somehow having all user data and stats info stored on the STEEM blockchain..! I'm not sure I'll be able to figure that out in the 2 week deadline I've given myself but if by chance I do have a breakthrough on STEEM blockchain storage of data I'll certainly be attempting an implementation in future versions.
Just make sure to have a redundant DB and make sure when you have accepted a tip, the DB storage of the tip is accepted as well by the DB. This also counts for the deliver part of the tip. I suggest you make the accept and deliver patch independent, that seems to work better int he workflow, and you can for instance accept more tips incoming then sending out in high load situations. But, such engineering requires more work. I come from an industry where most of the engineering effort went into solidifying the software then the actual features the user sees; Required for business critical system with availability figures of 5 9's.
I'm thinking I might flat fee it.. Seems to be what most would prefer!
Might be a little over tired having been up all night working on @tippy.. If I misinterpreted or botched what ideas you'd put forward to me when brainstorming my apologies captain!
There are risks as you mentioned when dealing with user funds as well as risk that government may take notice and try and ding operators for transmitting money without a license. APpreciate the insight and knowledge you've shared with me as well as the support of my STEEM service development. <3
What about autotipping by upvotes? This is implemented in Dobrobot in Golos. Works fine for me! On each my upvote Dobrobot transfers 5 Golos to user which is upvoted by me.
Interesting idea! Are there any caps on how much Golos is available to tip with the posting key?
It is fixed amount of Golos you define in memo field when transfer your donation fund to Dobrobot account. Dobrobot has no caps on it, I think, but it is not a problem to add such caps in code. It is better to deploy such bots by trusted person in the community. Dobrobot uses its active key to transfer funds.
For example, I transfer 100 Golos to @dobrobot with memo: 5.
This means that on each my upvote @dobrobot will send 5 Golos to upvoted account. So I have 20 upvotes before I get a message Your donation fund is empty, please refill.
Anytime I can change this Golos per upvote number to 10 by transfering minimum 0.01 Golos with memo: 10.
I'm just the author of the idea. The developer of the bot is @ropox.
Useful links:
https://golos.io/@dobrobot/transfers
https://gropox.github.io/dobrobot/?dobrobot=dobrobot&minBlock=5691376
https://github.com/gropox/dobrobot
https://web.telegram.org/#/im?p=@chain_cf
Damn! That is some neat functionality for sure!
Just getting into deposit memo functions on my bot now. Got a bunch accomplished today but will certainly check this lead out. Thank you.
@tippy tip edje 0.1 steem
this is what I got in my wallet:
3 hours ago Receive 0.099 STEEM from tippy Tip from @klye via @tippy memo: Text to Tip Service - 1.00% Fee: 0.001
This works!
Can you make the command like this? "@tippy edje 0.1"?
This makes it more simple. Tip will then always by Steem, so not possible to tip with SBD, but that should be fine, or? You could consider to put @ sign in front of recipient, this is what Steemit user are accustomed to, but not sure if that works for your application. Ohw, also note the . and , are in USA different to eg Europe. Not sure if possible, but if both can be accepted as the same ie 0.1 = 0,1 would cause maybe some less errors.
In text messaging and especially USSD (not sure of you know that from your mobile) they usually use some extra markers in from of the text message to identify it is a command. It will complicate things a bit, but may also become more recognisable as a command rather than a comment. Characters like # * are used, but I guess this may be not wise with Steemit's markdown editor and different meaning to those symbols.
I could implement that command structure if you'd like. Anything is possible.
Could use a $ in front of the integer to tell the bot to send SBD... Will have to play with it a bit.
Got powerups working now too. You can use your steem balance to power up others via tippy now. :)
I'm still working on functions then going to attempt to integrate STEEM blockchain backups and whatnot. Then I need to tackle the queue / post limit evasion and get the restart block checker going and we should be good for some insanity testing. :D
I would not include to many functions at launch, these will be better determined by the feedback you'll getting from the users. More functions also makes it more complex. Better to spend time on making the backend work in a resilient manner :) But that is just my 2cents :)
You may keep what you have now, but be prepared to change it. All depends on how many mistakes that users are gonna make. An idea could be to create some browser plugin that helps creating the command; ie a little menu to include recipient, value and currency. But this has there own challenges + more work to create, so keep that as a possible extension sometime after launch, ie candidate roadmap feature. I would start with only Steem, keep it simple, see how the users like it. It also drives demand for Steem since post are payed out in SBD when selecting the 50/50% :)
I've basically got the beast tipping SBD / STEEM / Powering up STEEM / Handling Deposits / Balances / Fee forwarding and a handful of other things.
It's not actually that difficult to build a fully feautured tip bot. The hard part will come with bullet proofing it and integrating with the STEEM blockchain.
I can always allow both styles of tipping.. Not a big deal. Functionality is already built just need to change the triggers around a bit.
Correct! That I know of software engineering, features are usually easy, in my line of business we call this marketing stuff. The real stuff, stability, resilience, scalability, integrations with other system are the difficult parts. When done that right, with top level performance vs hardware resources, you enter the game of high value IT software for which millions of $ are requested from customers.
@kyle I LOVE the tippy bot. Great idea and thanks for hacking the code to pull it together
My thoughts about the fee structure is it should not cost more than a trade would on an exchange. The current fee structure on Poloniex, for example, runs about 0.15% - 0.25% per trade. If the idea is to scale the product, the focus on how to generate profit should (in my mind) follow the McDonalds principle and focus on small fees from a large volume of micro-transactions. As the value of STEEM increases, I think that fee structure future-proofs (to a much greater degree) the need to revise fee structures at a later date.
You are welcome. Thank you for the show of support.
Interesting take on the fee idea. Right now I have it set to a 1% fee by defualt flat rate accross all amounts tipped as the viarable amount wasn't popular with the community.
We'll have to see where the fees end up. I'd like to keep them as low as possible but still make a bit from running the service so people aren't leary about using it.
@kyle I think you absolutely should make something off your creation. One of the things which excites me about this creation is it's providing a utility in Steemit which is absolutely needed. With the right fee structure, it will maximize the amount an individual will tip another individual.
The best part is this has the potential to solve the STEEM power concentration issue as more and more of the community tip each other - effectively redistributing STEEM/STEEM Power.
Great job, @kyle.
It is functionality that is desperately needed in my opinion and when @steemitqa approached me with the idea I fell in love with it.
Took me a while to get focused onto the service but within the next week or so it should be finished and operational. I'll also be releasing a stripped down version for people to run their own tipping service as well.
I'm you're 1111 followers!!!
I'm lucky man)))
Goog luck & you @klye
Holy hell. Didn;t even notice!
Cheers man. Have a good one!
I like the idea of "power-up" tipping. Don't know how you would do that, but it would be nice to send others Steem expressly for them to power up (rather than liquid and have it transfered out to an exchange right away).
Also, I know you are incredibly busy, but I messaged you on your chat channel about your "Streemian" project, and have had another idea for a site (well, actually I think it's considered a forum, again, don't know the technicals) that I would love to see something like it wrapped around Steem.
You rock @klye, and you have my vote. Keep up the great work, man!
Streemian isn't my project sadly... Do you mean Streemit?
I've got to get @tippy and Steem-Roller going before I even entertain the idea of starting another project. THe amount of work I have left to do on my planned projects is nothing short of immense but I'll certainly brainstorm and chat with you to see what you'd need to get your project started.
Cheers. Thank you for the support and kindness.
Yes, I did mean Streemit. That's the live video feed one, right?
Aye, Streemit is sitting on the backburner at the moment sadly.
The Flash based video client I was using isn't exactly up to snuff nor really as secure as I'd have hoped and once I get a few of these projects on the go launched I'll be bearing down to write a custom HTML5 video streaming client to use for Streemit.
Those fees are tiny which is great. I think no problem!
Right on. Not sure where they will end up. I don't want them any higher than that and if I can get away with lower fees I'll likely do that. Have to see how the community responds to the fees listed above and go from there.
Well, your doing good stuff man as always!!
Cool blog for witness @klye
Thanks man. Always trying to create interaction and engagement while I go about my wizardry.
Amazing you...
I like it
Why not just have a flat fee at 1% or 2%? What would be the arguments against not keeping it simple like that?
I did think about a flat rate fee.. Perhaps that would be better.
Certainly easier code wise to implement. However I've already got the tier / variable fee operational but it can just as easily be removed.
Yeah, I was thinking just from a coding perspective that it would be much easier to manage. But also as a user who wants to send a tip, looking at different tiers and thinking that you'll be "penalized" one way or another might be discouraging.
As the programmer and the person paying the costs of the operation, is there that much of a difference on your end in terms of cost/power if someone sends 0.01 STEEM or 10 STEEM? Because if there isn't a difference or if it's too small to matter, then a flat fee would probably be best.
I think flat fee is what the consensus seems to be..! This is why I made this post. To see what people prefer. :)
I speak on behalf of America, I'll allow it. Keep in mind due to manifest destiny it's basically still ours anyway.
Shape the fate of those around you with every word, action and invention!
Great discussion here!
I love the idea @klye for the sme reason as you, it's pretty cumbersome to send a tip now. In fact at one point I created an account for tipping that would be easier for ppl to tip. Of course, no one did and I gave up on the idea.
I am not a huge fan of fees to be honest, especially for something that eventually could be incorporated into the UI of Steemit inc. On the other hand, the hard work put int this project maybe deserve to be transformed into a revenue stream. It's hard to say.
But if fees are must [ vs for example donation to the creator of tippy prompted on tipping ] i'd suggest a flat one. It makes no sense to me that you charge me more for tipping less. I think a lot of ppl would see this as wrong.
All in all, great initiative and looking forward to see where it goes! Glad to see you are still at it after all this time.
Good luck!
The feedback from the community is certainly going to shape how the service functions at launch. I agree, Going to your wallet to send funds is a pain in the ass most the time and if it can be done away with via the @tippy service I'll be extremely proud to be the guy to make it so.
Fees suck! I'm not a fan either but a mans got to eat and for a freelance code soldier of fortune like myself its imperative I set up multiple, easy to oversea, low maintenance streams of revenue if I'm to achieve my life goals and become debt free and prosperous.
I believe flat fee is the way to go after hearing the community feedback on this post so far. I'd not even considered a donation feature on @tippy but perhaps I should code something up to allow for such transactions to take place.
Almost a year on Steemit.com and the things I've learned, people I've met and ambition I've found within myself is nothing short of life changing. I owe the STEEM community for letting me begin to grow into my potential.
<3
" steemit let me grow into my potential"...well said, mate. I could vouch for that myself. There are tons of words never written had I not been around here
[ some would say that's not actually good for the word but hey, everyone's a critic right?! ] :))
I've got to thank the entire STEEM community, Steemit Inc and the people who said I'd never amount to anything for the ambition and opportunity that has been given to me.
If a former homeless bum can go from dick drawing troll to somewhat respected member of STEEM, top 25 witness and sponsored STEEM developer in less than a year I'm 100% certain that others will be able to do the same..! People thoroughly enjoy a good underdog story, mine's just starting to get good. I've not got the correct words to describe how thankful I am so I'll just keep building and creating as a show of appreciation for the community that embraced me and set me back on my feet towards success.