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RE: Is Jesus Torturing Grandma?
I'm sorry to hear that.
Perhaps we could start a conditionalist trail? ;)
Have you read Fudge? How about Brother Bird? ;)
I'm sorry to hear that.
Perhaps we could start a conditionalist trail? ;)
Have you read Fudge? How about Brother Bird? ;)
Fudge, yes. The Fire That Consumes is a must read. Haven't heard of Bird. , I'll have to check him out.
I'd be glad to join the conditionalist trail, but I can't really say I'm a conditionalist. I'd rather say I LEAN conditionalist. I'm sure there's not Eternal Concious Torment, though.
I've recently come across some really good biblical arguments for some form of Universal Salvation I can't dismiss entirely. It's not the emotional arguments that get me, but all the places in the New Testament where Jesus is portrayed as saving all mankind.
Right now, I think conditionalism is correct, but I hold out hope for Universal Salvation. I know a lot of people will react negatively to that because they want to demand Justice, and I feel their pain. However, If I'm being honest with myself I can't say I really want Justice because I know what I'd have coming to me.
This is one of the areas where I think the Bible may be intentionally ambiguous. There's just too much that has to be interpreted so that you don't come out with contradictions. I'm totally willing to be shown I'm wrong, though.
I appreciate your transparency.
I was originally confronted with conditionalism many years ago, and subsequently read through the entire bible looking to test the concept. At the end of that exercise, I was 95% persuaded. Then I discovered Fudge, and came the rest of the way...
Brother Bird (just search for him) has a delightful approach to poetic persuasion... you'll see what I mean.
I don't subscribe to universalism... I do grieve over those who are adamantly opposed to all encroachment of grace. There are several here on Steemit. For instance, have you ever come across @heretickitten? However, my understanding of scripture envisions a perfectly just and balanced punishment followed by a merciful extinction. I can't argue with that.
Have you ever read Lewis, "The Great Divorce?" I think his understanding that the damned would never be happy even in heaven is probably pretty close to the truth...
I think we're mostly on the same page. Fudge is definitely convincing and the guys over at Rethinking Hell have been a real help to me. There's just some verses in the bible that give me a reason to keep an open mind.
I've read some Lewis, though it's been years, but I haven't read "The Great Divorce." I had a big Lewis collection volume that had it in there, but I loaned it out before reading it and never got the book back! He's definitely influenced my thinking for quite a while, though. I read the Narnia Series when I was young and I can't remember if someone explained the metaphorical representation of atonement there or if I figured it out on my own, but it's been with me ever since.
I haven't run across @heretickitten yet. I have run across too many people in life who were so sure they had it all figured out that they were unable to even listen to counter arguments. I guess this is why there's only a few things I want to "lock down" as far as beliefs and dogma. If I'm wrong about something, I want to be corrected.
I just want to respond to this by urging you to rest completely in the work that Jesus did. Believe that he bore all the just retribution that was due you. And then, as your fine article earlier today urged, live for him in gratitude.
Thanks for that, and I totally agree. I didn't want to give the impression that I don't trust that Jesus' work paid for my sins. I was just saying that if I was to be judged by my works, then I'd be in big trouble. Praise Jesus I don't have to worry about that, though!
I can't find anything on Brother Bird. Do you have a link?
Here's the "classic" Brother Bird poem:
Here's another, and there are more that perhaps I'll be able to turn up later: