Is Jesus Torturing Grandma?
Jesus loves me, this I know.
But my Grandma missed the boat.
In Heaven I'll be pleased to see,
Grandma burning in front of me.
Have you ever heard this Gospel presentation? Well, nobody is going to put it like that, but this is in essence the Gospel message many Christians present to unbelievers. How can we expect someone to believe in a God that is all love, but is unable to come up with another answer to disbelief in Him than Eternal Conscious Torture?
No friends, this is not the Gospel. The Gospel, or Good News, is clearly defined in the Bible. It can be found in 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, verses 1 through 4:
NET Bible
Now I want to make clear for you, brothers and sisters, the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures,
This is where the meat is, and it's where evangelism should be focused. 1. Jesus died four our sins. 2. Jesus was raised from the dead.
Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that is where learning should stop, but that is the "Good News." It's not good news to hear that your dead loved ones will be tormented forever because they were raised in a Muslim home, or Hindu, or Buddhist. Think how many people just those three comprise of. Incorporating eternal torment into evangelism is shutting the door to belief for billions of people.
The idea of Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a biblical idea, anyway. It's incorporated into theological systems, held over from Platonic ideas of human existence and the eternity of the soul. This is actually in contrast with what the Bible teaches about eternal life. The Bible clearly teaches that eternal life is granted to those who believe.
John 3:16New English Translation (NET Bible)
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 6:23New English Translation (NET Bible)
For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Life or death. Eternal life isn't given to unbelievers.
This idea isn't biblical, and is a hindrance to evangelism. It should be cast aside and we should concentrate on the Gospel of Christ.
I totally agree that conditional immortality is biblical. I was a traditionalist but this article really helped me see it for what it is.
https://cornbreadandbourbon.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/eternity-in-hell-or-forever-dead-part-1-is-everyone-immortal/
This post has been ranked within the top 80 most undervalued posts in the second half of Mar 23. We estimate that this post is undervalued by $3.56 as compared to a scenario in which every voter had an equal say.
See the full rankings and details in The Daily Tribune: Mar 23 - Part II. You can also read about some of our methodology, data analysis and technical details in our initial post.
If you are the author and would prefer not to receive these comments, simply reply "Stop" to this comment.
I'm so glad to discover a fellow conditionalist here on Steemit.
Thanks for boldly proclaiming the truth, brother! :D
😄😇😄
This one didn't go over very well. I'm pretty sure this got me banned from the christian-trail.
Oh well.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Perhaps we could start a conditionalist trail? ;)
Have you read Fudge? How about Brother Bird? ;)
Fudge, yes. The Fire That Consumes is a must read. Haven't heard of Bird. , I'll have to check him out.
I'd be glad to join the conditionalist trail, but I can't really say I'm a conditionalist. I'd rather say I LEAN conditionalist. I'm sure there's not Eternal Concious Torment, though.
I've recently come across some really good biblical arguments for some form of Universal Salvation I can't dismiss entirely. It's not the emotional arguments that get me, but all the places in the New Testament where Jesus is portrayed as saving all mankind.
Right now, I think conditionalism is correct, but I hold out hope for Universal Salvation. I know a lot of people will react negatively to that because they want to demand Justice, and I feel their pain. However, If I'm being honest with myself I can't say I really want Justice because I know what I'd have coming to me.
This is one of the areas where I think the Bible may be intentionally ambiguous. There's just too much that has to be interpreted so that you don't come out with contradictions. I'm totally willing to be shown I'm wrong, though.
I appreciate your transparency.
I was originally confronted with conditionalism many years ago, and subsequently read through the entire bible looking to test the concept. At the end of that exercise, I was 95% persuaded. Then I discovered Fudge, and came the rest of the way...
Brother Bird (just search for him) has a delightful approach to poetic persuasion... you'll see what I mean.
I don't subscribe to universalism... I do grieve over those who are adamantly opposed to all encroachment of grace. There are several here on Steemit. For instance, have you ever come across @heretickitten? However, my understanding of scripture envisions a perfectly just and balanced punishment followed by a merciful extinction. I can't argue with that.
Have you ever read Lewis, "The Great Divorce?" I think his understanding that the damned would never be happy even in heaven is probably pretty close to the truth...
I think we're mostly on the same page. Fudge is definitely convincing and the guys over at Rethinking Hell have been a real help to me. There's just some verses in the bible that give me a reason to keep an open mind.
I've read some Lewis, though it's been years, but I haven't read "The Great Divorce." I had a big Lewis collection volume that had it in there, but I loaned it out before reading it and never got the book back! He's definitely influenced my thinking for quite a while, though. I read the Narnia Series when I was young and I can't remember if someone explained the metaphorical representation of atonement there or if I figured it out on my own, but it's been with me ever since.
I haven't run across @heretickitten yet. I have run across too many people in life who were so sure they had it all figured out that they were unable to even listen to counter arguments. I guess this is why there's only a few things I want to "lock down" as far as beliefs and dogma. If I'm wrong about something, I want to be corrected.
I just want to respond to this by urging you to rest completely in the work that Jesus did. Believe that he bore all the just retribution that was due you. And then, as your fine article earlier today urged, live for him in gratitude.
Thanks for that, and I totally agree. I didn't want to give the impression that I don't trust that Jesus' work paid for my sins. I was just saying that if I was to be judged by my works, then I'd be in big trouble. Praise Jesus I don't have to worry about that, though!
I can't find anything on Brother Bird. Do you have a link?
Here's the "classic" Brother Bird poem:
Here's another, and there are more that perhaps I'll be able to turn up later: