The Second Realm: Response To Joesal (Part 2)

in anarchy •  last month

The following post will be part three in my exchange with @joesal regarding the Second Realm. I've decided to put up these responses as entire posts; reason being, I don't want them to get lost in the comments section and also because they are a great example of how self-liberators strategize in pursuance of personal freedom. I hope you find it valuable.

Click here to catch up, if necessary.

So, again, I'm impressed with @joesal's answer. Not only has he consumed the Second Realm content we've put out, but he's actually putting deep thought into how these free, autonomous zones could come about. Let's get into his response. We'll start with:

Van nomadism is a good example. If apartment rent in a area is $10,000 per year and associated first realm expenses run $4,400, that represents twice the cost of $7,200 per year that you mention. Your possible capital formation is $7,200 per year compared to someone who would have $0 capital formation renting. In 10 years that’s a $72,000 difference, yet in both cases, the government will only see each case as below the $22,000 threshold for poverty. It’s a way of strategically using efficiency to build wealth. 

See, for some reason, I had only been looking at these sorts of figures for van nomadism in the short term -- in other words, how much will I need to live the lifestyle? What you point out here is quite brilliant. I'm disappointed I didn't think it through all the way! (Hahaha, kidding!)

This also demonstrates van nomadism's efficacy as an interim lifestyle; not only can it be used as a tool for personal freedom in the here and now, but it's a stepping stone towards other goals; an individual can get their feet wet in an alternative lifestyle while also building wealth.

“Cold Trading” is something I have been thinking about for only a few months. It is no different I think than regular trading, the exception being there is no previous or traceable association with traders and no possible organization components that can be infiltrated. It would be widely decentralized, so trying to control it from a first realm perspective would be impossible, and inefficient to the point of first realm economic suicide. 

Ahh, so I wasn't thinking far enough for this either. It's an interesting idea, I'm just having a hard time conceptualizing how this would function -- with it being decentralized in this manner, how would buyers and sellers get connected? How could a reputation system exist to prevent fraud and theft? I see your point on attempts to control it. It would be impossible. Kind of like trying to shut down Bitcoin. I'll have to ponder this more, too.

The digital realm is more difficult for me to observe. There is a vast quantity of data, security functions, software, communication that is occurring, so I am not yet comfortable thinking anything digital that hooks into a (first realm) communication network is untraceable. 

This is a fair position. I remember Brian Sovryn saying something along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing), "You can use all of the best encryption tools, but if the State wants to find you, there's not much you can do if you're targeted."

That said, the Second Realm replacement for the Internet, mesh networking, is all ready-to-go (as far as I understand it). All we need is a thick covering of nodes across so-called "America". I wouldn't expect that anytime soon, though.

So, in this next portion, @joesal responds to three questions I posited for him.

Q: When it comes to the S.R. Outposts in your opinion, what interaction (social/trading) would exist between them, if any?
A: This would be individual to individual exchange. Now what that exchange is, is a little undefined, I mean there is exchange of products, but there is also exchange of a service. The skill to trade that way will require proofs of quality, price and time that meet both traders individual standards.

The state has attempted to justified it’s existence by producing quality standards, and it has produced several generations of folks that can’t judge standards (or have the means to) on their own. In a sense, the state has socialized quality control and pricing. Cold trading seizes that ability away from the first realm. I fully understand it will take innovation to achieve that ability. 

My Response: That's what I figured. Great points.

Q: Is your proposal of S.R. Outposts an attempt to further decentralize the effort in building Second Realms?
A: The way I look at humanity, I don’t ignore that we have diversity. Freedom for some is not the same as freedom for others. My concept of freedom is based primarily on individual constructs. Other folks ideas of freedom are based on social constructs. That’s not to say there is some overlap between social constructs and individual constructs. I think we all have preferences for variable quantities of each.

It’s just that some will prefer more individual constructs, while others will prefer more social constructs. If we just took a group of people and started building second realm, I think what we would see is a social construct for the socially inclined and outposts for those individually inclined.

Decentralization only works to the point it starts seeing the more socially inclined defect out of the second realm. At that point it starts excluding half the political landscape of second realm. If we only make up 1/3 of the political landscape (as is seen in the map), then excluding the social construct would decrease second realm to only 1/6 of the total area.

So even though the social construct can be infiltrated, there is a risk versus inclusion problem. It can be solved by the social construct being able to collapse itself, and rebuild, but that is a lot to ask of folks that store their value in the social construct. That is part of the problem I haven’t yet resolved. 

My Response: So, I think I understood what you were saying. Decentralization really only happens when the social construct version is dropped in pursuit of the individual outposts (although, it would still be super decentralized, just not as much as the outposts). 

Hm. I see what you mean regarding your solution, but let me posit this: basically, the "social construct" of the Second Realm is that all of the participants respect property rights and autonomy. That wouldn't have to be "collapsed" in the event of infiltration, emergency, etc. They may have to change temporary autonomous zones or relocate, but I think that should be the expectation for someone interesting in joining or building Second Realms.

In other words, the scenery may change, but the principles remain. I'll have to think about this more.

Q: Digital Second Realms exist and have for some time. What impact does your mapping have on those, if any?
A: This is a tough question. It somewhat appears that these things start out as having high degrees of freedom, but as time marches on they are always infiltrated by the first realm. I use the term ‘social’ in many different ways, and it isn’t meant to be abrasive to socially inclined people, it’s just that when I see a social construct, I typically default to looking at how it will be infiltrated.

What I think occurs is that a digital social construct may be innovated, constructed and implemented on the social side of second realm, but the infiltration will slowly pull it upward on the Y-axis into the first realm. It’s another one of those problems where I don’t see a solution. 

My Response: Good observations.

So, I'm impressed again with the quality of your responses and the thought that you've put into the Second Realm, @joesal. You're a quite brilliant strategist, I can already see that. I look forward to your response, in addition to hopefully having you on the podcast sometime! :)

For the rest of you, I hope you found this valuable! Please leave your thoughts below! How do we build the Second Realm(s)?

Shane is the founder of Liberty Under Attack and host of LUA Radio, a once-weekly podcast released every Sunday; he also does The Vonu Podcast, which is released every Tuesday. He is a free market anarchist committed to providing solutions to his listeners and readers, so that they can create the freedom they desire in their own lives, RIGHT NOW, despite the State.

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I would like to make an observation that while statism does rely heavily on the welfare state, there is one exception to the state seeking to extract wealth from people below poverty level, the bludgies. The bluecoats don't care about financial status and seem to be more prevalent and aggressive in low income areas.
That being said a agree with all other points made and think building second realms to be one of the most efficacious forms of direct action.
I'm particularly interested in building mesh networks. I'm not very tech savvy but I honestly don't see how this hasn't been widely adopted yet. The possibilities seem to be endless.
Along with the model of each individual representing an outpost, why couldn't each outpost (or groups) represent a mesh network node? Again I'm not sure how this would work but possibly using mesh networking combined with a form of cold trading with crypto currencies like Monero to create a free digital economy could be doable.


@anarchoaahabb: That is a great point. If it's not the IRS goons, it's the bludgies.

It's great to have you on board! It's been amazing seeing the response to the Second Realm. Not only is there, well, actual feedback, but there are other folks (you and @joesal) who are contributing to the strategizing. I greatly appreciate that. It's really the only way these free, autonomous zones are going to come into fruition.

Mesh networking is huge for me too; it's a game changer. I see how it hasn't been adopted yet, though: most individuals see nothing wrong with the Internet. They may complain about "Net Neutrality" (LOL) or some censorship on Facistbook, but there are little qualms with the piece of infrastructure itself.

For anarchists, agorists, vonuans, and decentralists, though, we obviously see major issues with it and are planning our escape -- unfortunately, there aren't that many of us, and, from what I understand, it requires a thick covering mesh network nodes to even get close to replicating the Internet.

Along the lines of your final point, yes, intentional communities, van nomad caravans, etc. could be nodes in a mesh network. For sure. This is something I've hypothesized (and, there are things happening behind-the-scenes); that, an intentional community or whatever could have their own private, digital economy running on an untraceable, anonymous blockchain like the crypto-note protocol.

Obviously, this could be far more than JUST a way to exchange value, but it very well might be able to enable some cold trading -- reputation systems on the blockchain using pseudonymous identities, encrypted communication between buyer/seller facilitated on the blockchain, etc. And better yet? The technology for mesh networking has been around for 10+ years (i.e. the nodes, routing algorithms, etc.).

The possibilities are endless, which is why (and @joesal and I very well might disagree on this) I believe crypto-anarchism is really the greatest tool in pursuance of freedom, whether it's Second Realms, financial independence, etc.

Thanks so much for providing your thoughts. Laissez-faire. -Shane


Yes sir. I would love to see networks of free autonomous zones in my life time. Maybe wishful thinking but like you said, the technology is here. Sadly people are happy with the status quo tax farm. But anarchists don't need a majority or mass consciousness shift, as you of all people know.
I'm just recently getting into the crypro part but I've been an anarchist for a while now. It's very exciting to say the least.
Thank you and keep up the great work.


Indeed, man. It's not wishful thinking at all, though. Small scale, it's happening already. This is the time of the self-liberator.

It certainly is exciting. Thanks again, @anarchoaahabb. Stay in touch. -Shane

My apologies for not catching this earlier in me feed.

----I would say the highest degree of decentralization is in the form of outposts. Basically decentralizing to the person.

----Principles as a social construct are pretty safe, it’s all the ‘things’ that the social construct is expected to do that becomes a problem. Something like ‘store wealth’. The first realm social construct would be a banking system. If second realm built a bank, either physical or digital, it would potentially have the risk of falling prey to first realm infiltration, then all the wealth stored within would collapse or be transferred to the first realm.

Even in mesh networks, I think the network would need to collapse and randomly rebuild within certain time intervals to prevent various types of infiltration. If it were ever even ‘pulsed’ on and off the network users would have transmissions that somewhat coincide with the network going online/offline.

Something as simple as fraud tracking could allow the infiltration. It is a very tough thing to guard against as whatever is built and used socially has this associated risk.

For this reason, if a social construct is built it should only do very few things, and would need to look like chaos (or noise) to the first realm.

I am happy to come on a podcast, but my speaking is not as skilled as my writing. I'm also not sure on what type of connection is needed.


@Joesal: Not a problem, sir. I knew you'd get around to it eventually!

  1. I agree; the outposts are the most decentralized version of Second Realms.
  2. Good point; the Second Realm infrastructure itself would need to be torn down/rebuilt at each new temporary autonomous zone. Some would get sick of that pretty quickly, and yes, there is the risk of confiscation, or, in other words, squandered investment capital.
  3. As far as mesh networking, I have a limited understanding as of right now. I'll have to get back to you on this once we do the Mesh Networking episode on The Vonu Podcast. Tentatively, I'd say you're correct. Anything that can be done to mitigate the risk of infiltration.

I'll leave it there for now.

I'm pleased to hear that you're willing to come on the podcast. I'm really looking forward to the discussion. As far as setting this up, is there an email address I can reach you at (or Signal, Telegram, SteemChat, etc.)?

Once I hear back, we'll get the process moving.


Just started SteemChat address= @ joesal


Messaged you there!